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Thread: Is this fourm Totalitarian ?

  1. #1
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    Is this fourm Totalitarian ?

    Totalitarian .. .. ..

    Being, or imposing a form of government (or rule) in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control over all aspects of life, the individual is subordinated to the state, company, website and opposing political and cultural expression is suppressed: "A totalitarian regime crushes all autonomous institutions in its drive to seize the human soul" (Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bersa.380 View Post
    Totalitarian .. .. ..

    Being, or imposing a form of government (or rule) in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control over all aspects of life, the individual is subordinated to the state, company, website and opposing political and cultural expression is suppressed: "A totalitarian regime crushes all autonomous institutions in its drive to seize the human soul" (Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.)
    No. This is a private entity that can implement any rules that the owner decides. We are free to come and go as we please if we don't like the rules.

    I even post this after having my wrist slapped by a moderator for an improper posting.
    Last edited by flb_78; 07-19-2010 at 08:53 PM.

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    I apologize as I was not going to respond to this thread, however I have lost my self control.

    You are using the same argument many use about the way the US does things. Like not allowing illegals to get welfare and allowing illegals to obtain drivers licenses and so on and so forth (same statement you made about this forum)

    To which I will respond to you the same way I respond to them: "If you dont like it get out"

    Not to sound rude but you have a choice to be here, and when you sign up there is a ToS thing that you are SUPPOSED to read and then you click "I have read and understand the terms of service of this forum"

    If you no longer agree then I guess the only option left is to find a place that you DO agree with their ToS.....
    Last edited by devildoc5; 07-19-2010 at 11:30 PM.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Excuse the OP, he must be new to the 'interweb'

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    This site is not even close to Totalitarian. I think this site is pretty good at letting the individual's rule themselves, unless they go to far...which I have definitely done from time to time. This site is specific to Open-carry--hence, opencarry.com and should contain OC or at the least CC discussion IMO.

    I am a member of another site that shuts threads down quick the second tension begins to build--they aren't even totalitarian.

    JEEZ, so many people are so eager to start throwing Totalitarian, Communist, Socialist, etc. around these days, that these words that used to have meaning have become nothing more than a knee-jerk response to a disagreement.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  6. #6
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Totalitarian? No, not at all...

    Do they selectively enforce the terms of use? Yes, with annoying frequency.

    Do they lock or delete threads that are on-topic but may be perceived as "too controversial"? Yup. now and then...

    So they have certain topics that they don't like people to discuss, and do they censor, lock or delete threads that attempt to provide legitimate research on these topics? Yes, I've had this happen to me SEVERAL times.

    Are there some topics that are essentially the 2A version of "Godwins Law violations" on this forum, even if they ARE directly OC, or 2A related? Yes, without a doubt.

    How do we deal with arbitrary or selective enforcement of Moderator Powers on a forum like this?

    Present a logical argument when "warned" by the admins. But DO NOT do it by PM. ALWAYS address accusations of "terms violations" in the forum--NOT through PM. NEVER answer such private accusations in private. Abridgement of the 1A is just as intolerable as restricting the 2A, and although this forum is touted as being "one issue focused", we should NOT tolerate the abridgement of ANY of our Constitutional rights by self-appointed authorities, in the name of "safety" or "politeness"...

    Things are generally pretty open here. But now and then, some of us DO seem to touch a nerve with the admins.

    All that we "little people" can do is hope that their sense of what is right prevails over their lawyer training when this matters come up in the future...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  7. #7
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post

    Present a logical argument when "warned" by the admins. But DO NOT do it by PM. ALWAYS address accusations of "terms violations" in the forum--NOT through PM. NEVER answer such private accusations in private. Abridgement of the 1A is just as intolerable as restricting the 2A, and although this forum is touted as being "one issue focused", we should NOT tolerate the abridgement of ANY of our Constitutional rights by self-appointed authorities, in the name of "safety" or "politeness"...
    That's governmental authority. John and Mike can bounce you or anyone else off of this forum with no recourse available to you. It's a private server.

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran OlGutshotWilly's Avatar
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    Bersa and Dreamer,
    It's like I tell my kids........My wife and I own the house, we pay the mortgage and the bills. We don't have a democracy in our house. We make the rules and enforce them. If you don't like it, pack your bags and move out.
    There is no freedom of speech in our house. You will speak to your mom and I with respect, answer Yes Sir/Mom or No thank you sir/Mom. There is discipline in our house and if you break the rules you will be spanked, grounded or have privileges taken away.

    This forum is Mike and John's house, they own it and pay the bills, and our conversations are as if we were in their living room. They can ask us to leave at any time.

    They are not "self appointed authorities", they OWN this house. Very similar to the Castle doctrine I believe. My house is my castle, owned by me, not "we the people".
    THE SECOND AMENDMENT: Washington didn't use his right to free speech to defeat the British, he shot them.
    ---------------------------------------------
    Government is not reason; it is not eloquent -- it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
    --George Washington,
    first U.S. president

  9. #9
    Regular Member Tomas's Avatar
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    Post Standard Reply

    As an Admin of several other sites, this is the short bit of boilerplate I usually drop in threads like this:
    ________________

    "Freedom of Speech" is not a term that applies to any private site that allows posting by members. The US First Amendment only applies to not allowing the US government to censor most speech. As soon as you step into a private site like this, you are in someone else's livingroom or office, not in a public space, and the owner - the person paying the bills - can set any rules they want and a poster can either agree or leave. No problem, but just trying to correct an all too common error of perception about the internet. (Also note that if any site is not in the US, the rules can change drastically...)
    ________________

    That's the Real World™, folks.
    Last edited by Tomas; 07-20-2010 at 04:41 AM.
    No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: The officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets. -- Edward Abbey

    • • • Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Faciémus!• • •

  10. #10
    69Charger
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    We are totalasomethin over on the 1911 forum, but not here.
    1911s rule (ha ha ha )

    Have a nice day.


    Dave

  11. #11
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    Totalitarian? No.

    Benevolent Dictatorship... Yes.


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    First and foremost, this was just a question, OK !

    And .. .. .. I agree; if I don't like it here I am free to post elsewhere.

    At the same time we have an interesting "fine line" at OCDO.

    Any one can jump on this site and read what’s being said and never become a member, open to the public, like a park. Therefore I take heed to what I say.

    Also, it is monitored and posts can be deleted and/or closed by the owners, therefore I take heed to what I say.

    Hence, is this a public site ? YES ! Is it a private site ? YES !

    If it is public they can't put a stop to our 1A.
    If it is private they can put a stop to our 1A.

    Do you see the possible controversy ? Hmmm, it's not fully public or private.
    Last edited by Bersa.380; 07-20-2010 at 12:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post
    Excuse the OP, he must be new to the 'interweb'
    You just think I am new.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bersa.380 View Post
    You just think I am new.
    Option two: you must have just left AOL.

    :P

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    You're talking about something that exists on an etheral plane and not physically in the United States. The location of the servers, site owners and members come into play. But technically the words posted on the Internet are not subject to the US Constitution.

    There is and is not freedom of speech on the Internet. You are free to say what you want... but whomever is in control of the data is free to trounce you.

    As for privacy... there is no such thing online.

  16. #16
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    This website is like your home.

    You invite people in to have conversations. Except, since it is your house, you get to decide what is okay to talk about and what isn't. Anyone who disagreees is free to GTFO.

    I have no problem with that.

  17. #17
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bersa.380 View Post
    Hence, is this a public site ? YES ! Is it a private site ? YES !
    It is not a public site. A public site is one owned by a government entity. It is a privately owned site open to public access assuming you follow the rules and terms of service.

    Even sites that you pay for can throw you out.

    Technically, this thread is off topic therefore is against the rules and the moderator can throw you out.

    However, he can throw you out because he doesn't like you.

    Kinda like employment law in WI, I can fire any employee at any time for no reason whatsoever. I cannot fire them for being part of a protected class (race, age, etc).

  18. #18
    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
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    The easiest way to tell that the answer is "No" is the fact that this thread is still here.

    A truly totalitarian entity would crush any dissent.

    We just want to try and keep the conversation on-topic and be good ambassadors for gun rights.

    Since this thread is a valid question about the rules of the forum ... it stays ... even if it is potentially critical. THAT is why we are not totalitarian.



    John

    Quote Originally Posted by Bersa.380 View Post
    Totalitarian .. .. ..

    Being, or imposing a form of government (or rule) in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control over all aspects of life, the individual is subordinated to the state, company, website and opposing political and cultural expression is suppressed: "A totalitarian regime crushes all autonomous institutions in its drive to seize the human soul" (Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.)

  19. #19
    Regular Member gsx1138's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by administrator View Post
    The easiest way to tell that the answer is "No" is the fact that this thread is still here.

    A truly totalitarian entity would crush any dissent.

    We just want to try and keep the conversation on-topic and be good ambassadors for gun rights.

    Since this thread is a valid question about the rules of the forum ... it stays ... even if it is potentially critical. THAT is why we are not totalitarian.



    John
    Ahh, that's just what you want us to think. You're not fooling anyone!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Totalitarian? No, not at all...

    Do they selectively enforce the terms of use? Yes, with annoying frequency.

    Do they lock or delete threads that are on-topic but may be perceived as "too controversial"? Yup. now and then...

    So they have certain topics that they don't like people to discuss, and do they censor, lock or delete threads that attempt to provide legitimate research on these topics? Yes, I've had this happen to me SEVERAL times.

    Are there some topics that are essentially the 2A version of "Godwins Law violations" on this forum, even if they ARE directly OC, or 2A related? Yes, without a doubt.

    How do we deal with arbitrary or selective enforcement of Moderator Powers on a forum like this?

    Present a logical argument when "warned" by the admins. But DO NOT do it by PM. ALWAYS address accusations of "terms violations" in the forum--NOT through PM. NEVER answer such private accusations in private. Abridgement of the 1A is just as intolerable as restricting the 2A, and although this forum is touted as being "one issue focused", we should NOT tolerate the abridgement of ANY of our Constitutional rights by self-appointed authorities, in the name of "safety" or "politeness"...

    Things are generally pretty open here. But now and then, some of us DO seem to touch a nerve with the admins.

    All that we "little people" can do is hope that their sense of what is right prevails over their lawyer training when this matters come up in the future...
    very good post, i appriciate your level headedness.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Jamfish's Avatar
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    Silly American...

    In Soviet Russia, forum posts YOU!
    Support these forums, please donate if you are able to OpenCarry.Org!

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamfish View Post
    In Soviet Russia, forum posts YOU!
    priceless

  23. #23
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    Dave

  24. #24
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    Of course this forum is totalitarian.

    No matter what John says above, it is still the regime that makes the decision about how tolerant it wants to be. The admins are all-powerful; annoy them at your peril: http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/admin.htm


  25. #25
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    I am confused. Does anyone posting on a public forum NOT know that there are rules and ToS that apply, and that admin/mods can and will pull the plug?

    I know, I know...I'm trying to be logical again...sorry..

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