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Thread: Colleges

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    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
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    Colleges

    Regarding the CPL ban in dormitory or classroom, does the ban apply to the actual classroom, and the actual housing unit of the dorms, or to the building as a whole? I know some universities have businesses that are in the same building as classrooms or dorms, so I was wondering if the ban applied there.

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    IIRC, and I forgot where to find the cite, the wording was for "dormitories and classrooms" I don't recall anything referring to the building.

    Since we are on colleges, my mom works at Oakland University, and I'm getting my CPL back on Monday, which leads to a question. I know I can legally OC there, but does anyone know if OU has a policy against firearms possession, and weather the OU police there have the authority to criminalize our civil right and charge me with something?

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    It seems they think they can. I've given you the ordinance below. Interesting that if you resided in the married housing or in non-student residences, you could posses anywhere as long as it was otherwise legal.

    7.02 Weapons and Explosives. No person shall possess a pistol or any other firearm, dangerous weapon, weapon, explosive or incendiary device on the campus provided, however, that the occupants of single family residences in the Meadow Brook subdivision and non-student University residences may possess firearms as permitted by law. A weapon is any object designed to cause physical injury or any other object capable of causing physical injury or death. A dangerous weapon is any weapon designed to be dangerous and capable of causing death or serious bodily harm, or any other object capable of causing death or serious bodily harm that is used as a weapon. Items presumed to be dangerous weapons include, but are not limited to, daggers, dirks, stilettos, blackjacks, billies, metallic knuckles, bludgeons, ninja stars, and pocket knives opened by mechanical device. This section shall not be applicable to the authorized display of fireworks or cannon fire at events approved by the President or a designee.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

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    This seems to apply to those who reside on the campus. I have no connection with the school, except that my mom works there, and sometimes I need to go up to see her there. Im not sure after reading this, if it applies also to the general public. What do you think?

    ETA, how could they, or anyone else, expect the general public to be aware of their ordinances?
    Last edited by stainless1911; 07-20-2010 at 10:33 PM.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    This Information is wrong, see my post which follows this


    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    This seems to apply to those who reside on the campus. I have no connection with the school, except that my mom works there, and sometimes I need to go up to see her there. Im not sure after reading this, if it applies also to the general public. What do you think?

    ETA, how could they, or anyone else, expect the general public to be aware of their ordinances?


    They do say "any person..."

    But here is the interesting part: IMHO, they are not peace officers, they are just security guards. So, the security officers could call the police but they really would have a hard time detaining you if you wanted to leave before they got there.They have no more right to arrest anyone than you do: (felony in your presence). Ok, as security, they can detain you for violating MCL 356c-d (Retail Fraud)-- don't take anything offered for sale and they can't detain you. Also, this means that you are not required to inform if they stop you while cc.



    My information:I looked at a list of those security officers who are licensed as security police under the Licensed Private Security Police Officers Act.
    The only security officers in the state w/ police arrest powers are :
    Currently, there are 11 licensed private security police agencies in Michigan:

    Detroit Medical Center

    Pontiac School District

    Renaissance Center Management Co.

    Lansing School District

    Henry Ford Health System

    University of Detroit Mercy

    St. John Hospital & Medical Center

    Fairlane Town Center

    Schoolcraft College

    Spectrum Health

    Source: http://www.michigan.gov/mcoles/0,160...7950--,00.html
    Last edited by DrTodd; 07-20-2010 at 11:17 PM. Reason: spell check on new forum is #$%
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    So, the best thing to do, is to WRR, even though they are not cops, conduct my buisiness, and then leave? There should be no issues? If they try to detain me, I leave, if they refuse to allow me to leave, I call the real police, and request that the security officers (OU police) be charged with an unlawful detainment crime? Not trying to be redundant, just being careful.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 07-20-2010 at 11:09 PM.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Mea Culpa: They are not licensed under the above provision, but they are a bonified police department w/ sworn officers: found their link on the law enforcement Network.



    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    They do say "any person..."

    But here is the interesting part: IMHO, they are not peace officers, they are just security guards. So, the security officers could call the police but they really would have a hard time detaining you if you wanted to leave before they got there.They have no more right to arrest anyone than you do: (felony in your presence). Ok, as security, they can detain you for violating MCL 356c-d (Retail Fraud)-- don't take anything offered for sale and they can't detain you. Also, this means that you are not required to inform if they stop you while cc.



    My information:I looked at a list of those security officers who are licensed as security police under the Licensed Private Security Police Officers Act.
    The only security officers in the state w/ police arrest powers are :
    Currently, there are 11 licensed private security police agencies in Michigan:

    Detroit Medical Center

    Pontiac School District

    Renaissance Center Management Co.

    Lansing School District

    Henry Ford Health System

    University of Detroit Mercy

    St. John Hospital & Medical Center

    Fairlane Town Center

    Schoolcraft College

    Spectrum Health

    Source: http://www.michigan.gov/mcoles/0,160...7950--,00.html
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    So, the best thing to do, is to WRR, even though they are not cops, conduct my buisiness, and then leave? There should be no issues? If they try to detain me, I leave, if they refuse to allow me to leave, I call the real police, and request that the security officers (OU police) be charged with an unlawful detainment crime? Not trying to be redundant, just being careful.
    Nope, the above info was wrong. Current law would not allow them to be a PD without the Private Security Officer Act... but basically they used to be allowed to from a PD and are grandfathered in. Looked at current law, not law that was repealed but current PD's grandfathered.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Ok, but can they enforce OU ordinances (private rules??) against the general public? I diddnt see a "penalties" section in the ordinance...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Nope, the above info was wrong. Current law would not allow them to be a PD without the Private Security Officer Act... but basically they used to be allowed to from a PD and are grandfathered in. Looked at current law, not law that was repealed but current PD's grandfathered.
    So, they are to be regarded as police officers?

    ETA 2,000 posts yay
    Last edited by stainless1911; 07-20-2010 at 11:23 PM.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Ok, but can they enforce OU ordinances (private rules??) against the general public? I diddnt see a "penalties" section in the ordinance...
    Here are the ordinances: the weapons ordinance is at 7.02. You will see the penalties at Chapter 9.

    http://www2.oakland.edu/audit/POLCY640.HTM
    Last edited by DrTodd; 07-20-2010 at 11:27 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    I'll go read this now. But can they enforce this on the everyday joe? ie. me?

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    Chapter 9. Penalty for Violations
    9.01 Penalty. Except as provided in Chapter 3 of these ordinances (traffic regulations), any violation of these ordinances shall be a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not more than $100 or by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or both, or as otherwise determined by law.

    9.04 Denial of Access to Campus. Any individual who violates these ordinances and whose actions pose a threat to the health and/or safety of the university community, or to university property, or whose actions constitute trespass may also be referred to the university administrator designated by the president for a hearing which may result in an order denying the offending individual access to the campus for a specified period of time.



    But I still cant tell if they can make these ordinances apply to the general public. How would the general public be expected to be aware of these ordinances?

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    Do you have the cite for the MCL that covers posession of firearms in places other than dormatories and classrooms? or was that an AG.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Chapter 9. Penalty for Violations
    9.01 Penalty. Except as provided in Chapter 3 of these ordinances (traffic regulations), any violation of these ordinances shall be a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not more than $100 or by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or both, or as otherwise determined by law.

    This seems to indicate that the only thing they can enforce is the traffic section chapter 3
    It's actually in the MCL. Start here:
    http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-Act-35-of-1970
    Read through it: they are assuming the same right as places like UofM, MSU, etc. under the same "privilege" to make law in opposition to the Firearm Preemption Law. We continually try to hash this out here on the board and it is something I believe most here want changed. The real issue: we believe these places should be covered by preemption. I think there recently was an attempt by a University in Colorado to maintain a firearm ban. (Colorado has comparable constitutional provisions in it's constitution for the universities to have ordinances under the independence allowed them that Michigan does). The university lost in court. Perhaps we are getting closer to a time where we in Michigan need to push the envelope?
    Last edited by DrTodd; 07-20-2010 at 11:53 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Perhaps he!!, any time there is an infringement, it should be challenged.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Do you have the cite for the MCL that covers posession of firearms in places other than dormatories and classrooms? or was that an AG.
    Maybe this:
    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...HLA-5474-1.pdf
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Based on the following snips, and the fact that they are claiming police powers, with uniforms, decorated vehicles, powers to arrest, powers to charge people with crimes which reflect on criminal records, and could result in incarceration, they are absolutely a local unit of government.

    390.151 Oakland university; establishment, location; board of control. snip The institution shall be maintained by the state and its facilities shall be made available equally and upon the same basis to all qualified residents of this state.

    390.152 Board of control; members, terms. sniphe board shall consist of 8 members who shall hold office for terms of 8 years and who shall be appointed by the governor by and with the advice and consent of the senate,


    390.154 Board of control; quorum; conducting business; notice of meeting; powers and duties of board; assumption and payment of liabilities; constitutional powers; other powers not excluded. snip The business which the board may perform shall be conducted in compliance with Act No. 267 of the Public Acts of 1976, being sections 15.261 to 15.275 of the Michigan Compiled Laws. Enumeration of powers in this act shall not be considered to exclude powers not expressly excluded by law.



    390.158 Board of control; ordinances, adoption, amendment or repeal; violation, penalty.
    Sec. 8. snip The violation of any such ordinance shall be a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not more than $100.00 or imprisonment for not more than 90 days or both.


    If charged, and in front of a judge, how could any judge possibly be shown what is written above, and not see that this is a local unit of government, and then be obligated to apply preemption to the accusation?

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Based on the following snips, and the fact that they are claiming police powers, with uniforms, decorated vehicles, powers to arrest, powers to charge people with crimes which reflect on criminal records, and could result in incarceration, they are absolutely a local unit of government.

    390.151 Oakland university; establishment, location; board of control. snip The institution shall be maintained by the state and its facilities shall be made available equally and upon the same basis to all qualified residents of this state.

    390.152 Board of control; members, terms. sniphe board shall consist of 8 members who shall hold office for terms of 8 years and who shall be appointed by the governor by and with the advice and consent of the senate,


    390.154 Board of control; quorum; conducting business; notice of meeting; powers and duties of board; assumption and payment of liabilities; constitutional powers; other powers not excluded. snip The business which the board may perform shall be conducted in compliance with Act No. 267 of the Public Acts of 1976, being sections 15.261 to 15.275 of the Michigan Compiled Laws. Enumeration of powers in this act shall not be considered to exclude powers not expressly excluded by law.



    390.158 Board of control; ordinances, adoption, amendment or repeal; violation, penalty.
    Sec. 8. snip The violation of any such ordinance shall be a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not more than $100.00 or imprisonment for not more than 90 days or both.


    If charged, and in front of a judge, how could any judge possibly be shown what is written above, and not see that this is a local unit of government, and then be obligated to apply preemption to the accusation?
    Because Currently, Section 2 of Public Act 319 of 1990 prohibits a local unit of government (defined as a city, village, township, or county) from taxing, adopting or enforcing an ordinance pertaining to, or regulating in any other manner "the ownership, registration,purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms,ammunition, or components," except as otherwise provided by federal or state law. Colleges and Universities are not in that list.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Understood. But they are acting like one.

    "They" dont like it very much when "we" try to fly under the radar like that.

    What would it take to have them added to the list of local units of gov, that appear in 123?

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    So it would appear that despite what is written in 28.425o, we should stick to empty holsters? But if we do that, how do we challenge the law, seeing that you cant be charged for an empty holster, and without being charged, you cant defend your position in court? Feels like chasing your tail.

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    Thumbs up

    Thanks for this discussion sir, your input is very valuable to me, a benifit to OCDO and the movement as a whole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    What would it take to have them added to the list of local units of gov, that appear in 123?
    A change in the statute to include them under preemption. This has been drafted by a legislator and hopefully he can get it enacted after November. So some legislators are aware of the problem. Write your rep and ask them to propose a bill to change it.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Thanks. Hopefully after the elections this will be possible. Right now, enacting the will of the people and common sense, is like

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    So it would appear that despite what is written in 28.425o, we should stick to empty holsters? But if we do that, how do we challenge the law, seeing that you cant be charged for an empty holster, and without being charged, you cant defend your position in court? Feels like chasing your tail.
    "without being charged, you cant defend your position in court?"

    Well, this is true most of the time, but not in all cases. It doesn't appear to matter, though, because it would probably be decided in the University's/College's favor.
    I was looking through some cases in the Appeals and Supreme Court of Michigan having anything to do with colleges or universities. I kept seeing decisions going in favor of the schools and, when I looked at the reasoning, it appears that Michigan Courts are very loathe to make Colleges/Universities subject to judicial review..
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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