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Thread: OC'd to 'renew' my library card last week.

  1. #1
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    OC'd to 'renew' my library card last week.

    Prior to SB308 being signed into law, I couldn't even to go to any library, main or branch, armed. With the removal of the 'public gathering' provisions of the old laws, I could go any of the branches to apply for a new one. The main library is still off limits to carry into as it holds the offices of the Cobb Library Board.

    So, I wandered in the branch closest to me a little after it opened (supprisingly crowded at 9:10 on a weekday morning), stood around waiting for one of the staff help me. By about 9:30 I was walking out with my shinny new library card.

    No hyseteria, no MWAG screaming, every one went about their business with no upset.

    I made no effort to conceal in any way, as a matter of fact, I shifted the gun around to the rear a little bit solely for my own comfort.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
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    Great to hear.

    And this was in Cobb? Very nice...Very nice indeed.

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    Isn't a library a government building? If so, then it is still a violation of the law to carry there even under SB308 Code Section 16-11-127.

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    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neeslycrunch View Post
    Isn't a library a government building? If so, then it is still a violation of the law to carry there even under SB308 Code Section 16-11-127.
    Government owned buildings in and of themselves are not off limits. It does not say that "any place where government employees work" either.

    It is only when that building (or portion of the building if not government owned) houses a "Government entity" then it is off limits...

    (3) 'Government building' means:
    (A) The building in which a government entity is housed;
    (B) The building where a government entity meets in its official capacity; provided, however, that if such building is not a publicly owned building, such building shall be considered a government building for the purposes of this Code section only during the time such government entity is meeting at such building; or
    (C) The portion of any building that is not a publicly owned building that is occupied by a government entity.
    (4) 'Government entity' means an office, agency, authority, department, commission, board, body, division, instrumentality, or institution of the state or any county, municipal corporation, consolidated government, or local board of education within this state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neeslycrunch View Post
    Isn't a library a government building? If so, then it is still a violation of the law to carry there even under SB308 Code Section 16-11-127.
    Ness, I gotta ask: Did you read my full post and understand it or just the title? Have you fully read SB308 and understand the provisions?

    If you did read and understand my full post, and have read and understand SB308, what do I need to do to prevent future questions?

    Just to explain, the Cobb County Library Board offices are in the Cobb County Central Library and is off limits to carry INTO the building. The other branches through out the county are not off limits to those with a GWL. As I explained in my first post, prior to the passage of SB308, I could not even leave the gun in my car in the branch parking lot because I was going TO what was covered by the 'public gathering' provisions of the old OCGA 16-11-127. Now the only library building off limits to carry INTO is the main library, but I can carry TO it and secure my gun in my vehicle.

    The only other off limits provision is when the library board is actualy meeting at one of the branches (not likely at 9AM) and only for the time of the meeting. I still can carry TO the branch when the board meets.
    Last edited by Wiley; 07-21-2010 at 05:45 PM.

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    Wiley,
    Although your analysis of SB 308 is truely remarkable, I question whether or not a Cobb County Police Officer would attempt to make a Case to Arrest you should they feel that The Secondary, non-Central Library, is a Government Building where a Government Entity is Housed.
    I agree that The Cobb County Central Library is where The Cobb County Library Board normally meets, however.
    Either way, under SB 308, the ability to utilize either exception under 16-11-127(d)(2) or 16-11-127(d)(3) is definatley a plus.
    A guarentee you that whenever the first Person feels threatend, and they call for Cobb County Police, The Cobb County County Police will act as though all Government Buildings are off-limits, notwithstanding your analysis, and will Arrest you for a Violation of 16-11-127, a Misdemeanor.
    What we need is a Court Ruling on just what Constitutes a Government Entity, and clarification on what a Government Building really is. One has to admit, after all, that the verbiage used on Government Buildings is both muddied and unclear.
    aadvark

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    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aadvark View Post
    Wiley,
    Although your analysis of SB 308 is truely remarkable, I question whether or not a Cobb County Police Officer would attempt to make a Case to Arrest you should they feel that The Secondary, non-Central Library, is a Government Building where a Government Entity is Housed.
    I agree that The Cobb County Central Library is where The Cobb County Library Board normally meets, however.
    Either way, under SB 308, the ability to utilize either exception under 16-11-127(d)(2) or 16-11-127(d)(3) is definatley a plus.
    A guarentee you that whenever the first Person feels threatend, and they call for Cobb County Police, The Cobb County County Police will act as though all Government Buildings are off-limits, notwithstanding your analysis, and will Arrest you for a Violation of 16-11-127, a Misdemeanor.
    What we need is a Court Ruling on just what Constitutes a Government Entity, and clarification on what a Government Building really is. One has to admit, after all, that the verbiage used on Government Buildings is both muddied and unclear.
    aadvark
    Well, people have been arrested for OCing with a permit and charged with "Carrying a concealed weapon" so I am not sure that a court case would make any difference to an uninformed LEO?

    The statute is what we have to work with. It does not say that a building where a couple librarians work is off limits. It says where a government entity is housed or meets in its official capacity.

    All that being said the OP has MUCH bigger ones that I. There is no way I am OCing into a public library in GA but I support him 100%. And of course....IANAL

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    Here is a link to the text of SB308: http://www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/2...308_APP_23.htm .

    Thank you for your complements but just to be clear, I did not go to get my library card while OC'ing for any political, educational or grandstanding reasons. I'm not a hero. I OC for my comfort and I personally find concealed carry distastefull, tinged with a vague hint of dishonesty.

    What I am is: Old, Literate, Refuse to live in fear of my employees, and Honest. Not much I can do about the first, and being literate, I do not have to worry much about the third.

    Now, aadvark, as to just a couple of your points:

    1) The original law (the lined out stuff) was enacted in 1870 and the 1910's as part of the Black Codes and Jim Crow laws. They were writen in such a manner that no one, cops or public, could understand the 'Public Gathering' provisions. And had to be removed (especially in light of McDonald).

    SB308 was introduced by and sheparded through the process by current and former police officers, attorneies and, perhaps, a judge or two. Many of the legislators are GeorgiaCarry.org members, as am I. The president of GCO is a former police officer of 12 years experience and a practicing attorney. There will be no suit to develop case law.

    2) By your logic, if a branch library is a 'govenment building' as defined by SB308, then are the GA400 toll booths run by the Georgia Toll Authority also? How about the Interstate welcome centers run by the (not sure here but I think) Georgia Department of Transportation (that were off limits until the enactment of SB308)?

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    Wiley, you make good points!
    I am now more understanding of SB 308.
    So as long as the Government does not have Official Meetings there..., or has an Official Office there..., then, Carry is Legal while there so as long as you are in compliance with 16-11-126.

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    Kingfish, please don't get the idea I'm leaving you out to the descussion. I value your coments and additions. I hope you are getting as much out of the explanations as aadrark and any others that may jump in.

    Don't be afraid of excersizing a Right! Arm yourself with knowledge (and a paid up GCO membership card .) Learn, Think, and go about your daily life with little fear.

    I will occasonially CC if I have to. I bought a couple of LOUD lightweight Hawiian shirts that I leave in the car for just that purpose. If you think you need to CC, do it, but don't restrict yourself just because you think that someone might get upset.

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    I always Open Carry.
    My Father taught me that it is Southern Tradition to Open Carry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aadvark View Post
    Wiley, you make good points!
    I am now more understanding of SB 308.
    So as long as the Government does not have Official Meetings there..., or has an Official Office there..., then, Carry is Legal while there so as long as you are in compliance with 16-11-126.
    Glad I've been helpfull. However, since I have a proper license the more proper code section is 16-11-127.

    A more general rule of thumb might be: "Where are the headquarters of the government agency, board, bureau, etc.?" Those buildings and offices are always off-limits to carry into. There are some other off-limits additions but those are fairly specific.

    In my case, going to a branch library, the 'Official Meetings', would only apply during the actual meeting as the headquarters of the board is not at the branch library. Since the library board publishes their meeting place schedule, and most are at night, its not a problem. If I really feel the need, I can still go to the branch and lock up the weapon.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiley View Post
    Kingfish, please don't get the idea I'm leaving you out to the descussion. I value your coments and additions. I hope you are getting as much out of the explanations as aadrark and any others that may jump in.

    Don't be afraid of excersizing a Right! Arm yourself with knowledge (and a paid up GCO membership card .) Learn, Think, and go about your daily life with little fear.

    I will occasonially CC if I have to. I bought a couple of LOUD lightweight Hawiian shirts that I leave in the car for just that purpose. If you think you need to CC, do it, but don't restrict yourself just because you think that someone might get upset.
    I appriciate the kind words.

    The only issue I have with carry into newly permitted locations that happened to be owned by the government is that I cannot afford the ride. Just too many ill informed LEO out there especially considering this is new law.

    I have no concern for someone getting upset at the sight of a holstered firearm, that is not my problem at all.

    Taking a ride honestly scares the hell out of me and would be about the worst place I could be at this point.

    I am all about OC and when my permit finally arrives (been 2 months since applying 1 months since fingerprinting) I will be 97% OC. I have OCed in TN and CO so am very comfortable with the practice. For me a library would need to be in the 3% for now. Maybe after a time and LEO are sufficiently educated then maybe. In CO, I would have no problem with it at all though.

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    Taken directly from the text of SB308, "(4) 'Government entity' means an office, agency, authority, department, commission, board, body, division, instrumentality, or institution of the state or any county, municipal corporation, consolidated government, or local board of education within this state."

    First, I am going to admit, I am not an attorney, I am not a government official. I am an over educated, tobacco chewing, beer and scotch drinking son of the south. I possess undergrads in business admin, political science, and with minors in business law and supply chain management, and I am in the midst of completing an MBA. I have worked in the past with Georgia legislators in efforts to craft legislation. I did not work with Mitch Seabaugh on this particular bill, although I am very familiar with the use of the language.

    From experience, I can assure you that the law was worded in such a way as to capture all government buildings where official government business is conducted. It may not seem like it to the OP, but renewing a library card with a government owned library system is an official government business transaction. If the solicitor of the county of occurrence wished, the OP could be successfully prosecuted for the violation and convicted of a misdemeanor.

    If you want clarification as to the intent of the law, I suggest that you email Senator Seabaugh at mail@mitchseabaugh.com.

    On a personal note. I am angered when I read of exhibitionists who are intent to push the boundaries of the law. Some of us are fighting hard to have our rights restored, and we do not appreciate others trying to incite controversy that could endanger our efforts. We haven't yet reached a point were open carry or even concealed carry is even close to universally accepted by the public. If I were asked for my advice I would suggest the following: Carry where and when you feel it is appropriate or necessary, but if you come across a situation where carrying may create controversy or worse, be in violation of the law, perform due diligence and get all the facts. If we all act in a responsible manner it is going to awfully hard for anti gunners to make their arguments.

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    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
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    Mr. Allen,

    The first thing I noticed was your post count (1) and I was about to say welcome to the forum. Then I read your post.

    Your claimed education and claimed lobbying efforts mean little to me (well, less than that actually.)

    You can be angered by OC all you want, however we are HERE TO STAY. Your disdain for us "exhibitionists" is no concern in the slightest. You don't like OC, don't do it or go lobby to get it banned. Go ahead...seriously, have fun with that. We will carry our properly holstered handguns as we go about daily life as we see fit where the law allows.

    Hopefully there can be some cleanup language written in the next session as there are alot of people as confused as you are about what the words in SB308 say.


    Good day sir.

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    Mr. Allen appears to be the contact for 'Friends of the NRA' in McDonough, GA. http://friendsofnra.org/Events.aspx?sid=11&sc=GA . A fact he neglected to disclose. But fairly obvious from his post.

    If you wish to see Senator Seabough's presentation and comments on SB308 from the Well of the Senate: http://vimeo.com/12139001 . Senator Seabough is the Senator from the 28th. (In the interest of full disclosure: the video is a public domain copy of just that portion of the final hours of the session dealing with SB308.)

    At about 5min into the video you will hear in the Senator's own words why the NRA ,who was pushing SB291, were so upset. And, why Mr. Allen was not completely forth comming in his post, "we" meaning the NRA.

    I have no problem with the NRA as a competition, riflery training and handicaping organization, similar to the USGA, ABC and other national sporting groups, they do a wonderfull job.

    As a legislative lobying organization they leave a lot to be desired.

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    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiley View Post
    Mr. Allen appears to be the contact for 'Friends of the NRA'
    NRA rep and he has a disdain for OC. Well, go figure.

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    To Clarify:
    I am not a representative of the NRA. I am simply treasurer of a Friends of NRA committee. Do a bit of research on your own and you might learn the difference. The NRA and I are not what I would say as "on the best to terms." My activities with the FNRA program are an effort to raise money for youth sport shooting organizations among others. It just so happens that as of this moment the FNRA program is the best supporter for such organizations in Georgia. Before you run off at the mouth, it helps know to know a little more about whom or what you are speaking about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Allen View Post
    Before you run off at the mouth, it helps know to know a little more about whom or what you are speaking about.
    As should you Mr. Allen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiley View Post
    As should you Mr. Allen.
    I'm typically found to be on top of my game.

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    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 07-24-2010 at 09:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aadvark View Post
    I always Open Carry.
    My Father taught me that it is Southern Tradition to Open Carry.
    Absolutely!! It is and since a lot of people living here are northern transplants it's up to us to educate them about the nuances of our culture and to assert them everyday.

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    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiley View Post
    Ness, I gotta ask: Did you read my full post and understand it or just the title? Have you fully read SB308 and understand the provisions?

    If you did read and understand my full post, and have read and understand SB308, what do I need to do to prevent future questions?

    Just to explain, the Cobb County Library Board offices are in the Cobb County Central Library and is off limits to carry INTO the building. The other branches through out the county are not off limits to those with a GWL. As I explained in my first post, prior to the passage of SB308, I could not even leave the gun in my car in the branch parking lot because I was going TO what was covered by the 'public gathering' provisions of the old OCGA 16-11-127. Now the only library building off limits to carry INTO is the main library, but I can carry TO it and secure my gun in my vehicle.

    The only other off limits provision is when the library board is actualy meeting at one of the branches (not likely at 9AM) and only for the time of the meeting. I still can carry TO the branch when the board meets.
    You are truly missed, Wiley.

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