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Thread: Taurus Judge is saw-off shotgun in California

  1. #1
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Taurus Judge is saw-off shotgun in California

    JOHN BOGERT: Second Amendment fans aim to change minds

    By John Bogert, Staff Columnist for DAILY BREEZE.COM 07/18/2010

    I received an interesting puzzle from Dr. John Elfmont of Redondo Beach. "Enclosed you will find a picture of three revolvers, which are illegal in California. If you can tell me (from your own knowledge) why they are illegal, I'll come over and take you to lunch. There is a larger, more important point to be made which I think will interest you."


    The revolvers pictured were manufactured by Taurus, "the world's foremost pistol maker." At first glance, all three looked not terribly different from a great number of weapons I have fired over the years except for one thing. All of them had really long cylinders to, obviously, accommodate really long cartridges. But aside from one of the handguns being partially made of a nonmetallic composite, I didn't notice anything amiss until I saw that the models called The Judge, The Judge 3-inch Magnum and The Judge Public Defender can fire ".410 gauge, 2.5-inch shotshells."

    Thinking back to what I know - and most of what I know comes from pistol-shooting courses taken for stories and from a childhood where Dad and I would hoist a freshly-shot-to-death deer onto the right front bumper of the Ford - it came to me. Actually, what came to me first was a variation on an old saying, "Shoot them all and leave the judging to God."


    That and the fact that a .410 gauge is a shotgun shell! These guns are illegal in California because they are essentially little sawed-off shotguns. After e-mailing my guess to the good doctor, he replied in part, "That you can shoot these from the Judge doesn't make the Judge a sawed-off shotgun ... it makes legislators creative in their wording of laws.


    The only person I know of personally who was killed in gun violence in this area was the brother of one of my office staff. ... It involved an ex-girlfriend and a shot fired from 12 feet away ... by a .22 short bullet. ... But he was no less dead than if he'd been shot by some `illegal' gun from a mile away.


    "Bad guys will always find ways to have guns, and since the Constitution, and now the Supreme Court, have ruled in my favor, I resent attempts to circumvent my Second Amendment rights, as you would resent attempts to circumvent your First Amendment rights. "Two former colleagues were robbed, and the wife of one was sexually assaulted, during home invasions. None of the perpetrators paid any attention to gun control laws. But I hope to provide a better outcome should any malfeasors break into my house."


    ON OPEN CARRY

    And there was this: "My name is Sam Wolanyk. I'm the chairman of Responsible Citizens of California, a carry advocacy group. Here's how you know whether someone is a law abiding open-carrier or whether they are intending to empty their firearm into your children: Criminals and psychos don't open-carry. They illegally conceal.

    "Go find yourself a cop and ask him if he has even seen a criminal open-carry. The answer is no. It's so absurd it's laughable. The dumbest crook in the world wouldn't advertise that he is carrying a weapon. Ask Lori Saldana (D-San Diego and an opponent of open-carry) if there has ever been a case, in any of the states, of an open carrier committing a crime with his firearm.

    "Every time you are out in public there are people who are carrying guns illegally concealed. When one of those concealed guns becomes visible this means that the criminal intends to use it. Unarmed, you have the options of begging, blubbering, hoping, praying and calling 911 to have the police arrive in time to verify that you and your kid are dead. "All because you didn't have the ability to protect your family.

    Do I expect or hope for confrontation? Absolutely not. Nor do I expect or hope for my house to burn down, but I've got smoke alarms and fire extinguishers."
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    thanks for posting this.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    California defines a short barreled shotgun as:

    A short-barreled shotgun means a firearm designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell that has a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length or an overall length of less than 26 inches; any weapon made from a shotgun which meets the barrel length or overall length criteria; any device which may be restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell and which meets the barrel length or overall
    length criteria; or any part or combination of parts designed and intended to convert a device into a short-barreled shotgun or which would permit an individual to readily assemble a short-barreled shotgun. (Penal Code § 12020(c)(1).)
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    New York is sort of like that too, but to a person's benefit. The point that I continually try to make on OCDO is that the definition any legislature ascribes to some aspect of the law is important.
    In New York, rifles, shotguns, and handguns are regulated by law. One notable exception is a shotgun with a rifled barrel. So, a person could not carry a shotgun, rifle, or handgun without a permit, but a "slug gun" could be so carried. This is because New York defines a shotgun as:

    A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder, and, even if not designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder, is not a firearm as defined in subdivision one of this section, and designed or redesigned, and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell, to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger.

    So, since it is designed to be shot from the shoulder but has a rifled barrel, a "slug gun" would not be considered a shotgun.

    There are other exceptions, too...
    see http://www.donath.org/Rants/NYSpecial/
    Last edited by DrTodd; 07-22-2010 at 09:06 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member kyleplusitunes's Avatar
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    I'm all for the outlawing of Taurus judges, just because they are an absurd weapon.

    hilariously absurd!

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    California defines a short barreled shotgun as:

    A short-barreled shotgun means afirearm designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell that has a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length or an overall length of less than 26 inches; any weapon made from a shotgun which meets the barrel length or overall length criteria; any device which may be restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell...
    What is meant by the word "fixed" in this context? Would the Judge not qualify because the shell is not "fixed" in position but housed in a rotating cylinder?

    Just wondering.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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    I was wondering the same thing.

    Outlawing any gun because (insert BS here) is a slippery slope. Be careful with that one, give 'em an inch ya know...

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    Quote Originally Posted by kyleplusitunes View Post
    I'm all for the outlawing of Taurus judges, just because they are an absurd weapon.

    hilariously absurd!
    It would be a decent survival gun in the wild as you could kill birds (Shot) and larger game (slug/pistol) for food. Bush pilots might consider having one in the survival gear (compact where space is a premium) with boxes of both shot and slugs/pistol loads.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  9. #9
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    It is also a great snake or bear gun.

    Snake with shot and bear with modern 45LC loadings.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    California defines a short barreled shotgun as:

    A short-barreled shotgun means a firearm designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell that has a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length or an overall length of less than 26 inches; any weapon made from a shotgun which meets the barrel length or overall length criteria; any device which may be restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell and which meets the barrel length or overall
    length criteria; or any part or combination of parts designed and intended to convert a device into a short-barreled shotgun or which would permit an individual to readily assemble a short-barreled shotgun. (Penal Code § 12020(c)(1).)
    Crikey! That's at least every .38 and .357 revolver ever produced!

    http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=757831

    Carry on

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    The way I understand it, the purpose of the sawed off shotgun laws, was to outlaw modifications to a non-concealable weapon that would make it concealable. They assumed anyone with motivation to do this had ill intent.

    Handguns were regulated while shotguns weren’t. So by modifying a shotgun you effectively make a handgun. That’s what the laws were intending to avoid. With CC permitting, this law becomes obsolete, anyone with a carry permit should be able to carry a sawed off shot gun, but that’s not how it is. Lawmakers “forgot” why the original laws was made and began a Jihad against any short shotgun or derivative of. I’m not a legal expert but I think a repeal of the sawed off shotgun law, or an amendment exempting handgun permitted individuals makes sense. We already have laws that prohibit carrying of handguns by non-permitting individuals, we don’t need the sawed-off shot gun law.

    Outlawing the Judge, is a gross misinterpretation of the spirit of the original “sawed off shotgun” law.

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    They should outlaw the judges that legislate from the bench instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock2010 View Post
    The way I understand it, the purpose of the sawed off shotgun laws, was to outlaw modifications to a non-concealable weapon that would make it concealable. They assumed anyone with motivation to do this had ill intent.

    Handguns were regulated while shotguns weren’t. So by modifying a shotgun you effectively make a handgun. That’s what the laws were intending to avoid. With CC permitting, this law becomes obsolete, anyone with a carry permit should be able to carry a sawed off shot gun, but that’s not how it is. Lawmakers “forgot” why the original laws was made and began a Jihad against any short shotgun or derivative of. I’m not a legal expert but I think a repeal of the sawed off shotgun law, or an amendment exempting handgun permitted individuals makes sense. We already have laws that prohibit carrying of handguns by non-permitting individuals, we don’t need the sawed-off shot gun law.

    Outlawing the Judge, is a gross misinterpretation of the spirit of the original “sawed off shotgun” law.
    Remember this is in California.
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    The bolded area is what I carry issue with. I personally have a CPL but my girlfriend doesn't but she still carries her pistol. I didn't know such a law existed. Please site, and remember you are in the Michigan forum (I don't know where you are from since you don't have it listed).


    Quote Originally Posted by Glock2010 View Post
    The way I understand it, the purpose of the sawed off shotgun laws, was to outlaw modifications to a non-concealable weapon that would make it concealable. They assumed anyone with motivation to do this had ill intent.

    Handguns were regulated while shotguns weren’t. So by modifying a shotgun you effectively make a handgun. That’s what the laws were intending to avoid. With CC permitting, this law becomes obsolete, anyone with a carry permit should be able to carry a sawed off shot gun, but that’s not how it is. Lawmakers “forgot” why the original laws was made and began a Jihad against any short shotgun or derivative of. I’m not a legal expert but I think a repeal of the sawed off shotgun law, or an amendment exempting handgun permitted individuals makes sense. We already have laws that prohibit carrying of handguns by non-permitting individuals, we don’t need the sawed-off shot gun law.

    Outlawing the Judge, is a gross misinterpretation of the spirit of the original “sawed off shotgun” law.
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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmlefler View Post
    Crikey! That's at least every .38 and .357 revolver ever produced!

    http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=757831

    Carry on
    They make shot shells for every caliber that I know of, I have them for my, 9mm, .40, .45acp, .22lr, and .357mag.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyleplusitunes View Post
    I'm all for the outlawing of Taurus judges, just because they are an absurd weapon.

    hilariously absurd!

    They have been working on making ammo specifically for them, 2.5 inch shells, 4- 36 caliber balls in each at something like 950 FPS out of a 2 or 2.5 inch barrel if I am not mistake and at 7-10 yards the pattern was very impressive . With them making ammo to perform in the gun it is actually far from absurd and would be a awesome self defense weapon. I admit I did not like it at first but as with any gun once the ammo catches up to whats needed the outlook changes drastically
    Last edited by choover; 07-26-2010 at 07:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    They make shot shells for every caliber that I know of, I have them for my, 9mm, .40, .45acp, .22lr, and .357mag.
    Hence the 'at least"...

    Carry on

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyleplusitunes View Post
    I'm all for the outlawing of Taurus judges, just because they are an absurd weapon.

    hilariously absurd!
    I think the issue is one of marketing... Taurus has done an effective job in getting the product within the public eye.

    IMHO, the problem with the firearm itself is the rifling: rifling helps when using pistol cartridges but negatively affects shot loads. Since there is a shallow rifling at the end of the barrel, I'm afraid that I have to agree somewhat w/ kyleplusitunes if we are talking about small game. I would not use the .410 shell because, due to the rifled barrel and, of course, lack of choke, pellets scatter quickly on leaving the barrel. I certainly would not attempt a shot on small game past 15 feet with a typical load. IMHO, the comments about small-game are assuming too much from a .410 in a short, rifled barrel. If we are concerned about snakes, I really don't see that as a major issue here in Michigan; the Eastern Massasauga Rattlesnake is Michigan's only venomous snake and is quite rare to encounter.
    http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7...2995--,00.html

    However, the .45 Long Colt, when loaded to its potential, produces greater power with less recoil and chamber pressure than a .44 Magnum so it COULD be a viable firearm. My concern would be that, since the rifling is shallow and near the end of the barrel, the rifling is not deep enough nor long enough to matter much so accuracy would suffer.

    But, I have a good friend who has one and he seems to enjoy it and, on that factor, it is OK as entertainment. He also seems to like the recoil and, if intimidation is part of the equation, it does the job because it can be a little disconcerting to be staring at a revolver which not only has a large large barrel-end, but also the remaining cartridges can be easily be seen as the gun meaning business.

    For me though, I would have to think that there are better, more accurate, .45LC handguns without the .410 option out there that would achieve the same thing.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 07-27-2010 at 10:20 AM.
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    I still say 4- 36 cal rounds at 950 feet per second out of a 2 inch barrel is pretty darn good and would be very very effective for stopping a threat

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I think the issue is one of marketing... Taurus has done an effective job in getting the product within the public eye.

    IMHO, the problem with the firearm itself is the rifling: rifling helps when using pistol cartridges but negatively affects shot loads. Since there is a shallow rifling at the end of the barrel, I'm afraid that I have to agree somewhat w/ kyleplusitunes if we are talking about small game. I would not use the .410 shell because, due to the rifled barrel and, of course, lack of choke, pellets scatter quickly on leaving the barrel. I certainly would not attempt a shot on small game past 15 feet with a typical load. IMHO, the comments about small-game are assuming too much from a .410 in a short, rifled barrel. If we are concerned about snakes, I really don't see that as a major issue here in Michigan; the Eastern Massasauga Rattlesnake is Michigan's only venomous snake and is quite rare to encounter.
    http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7...2995--,00.html

    However, the .45 Long Colt, when loaded to its potential, produces greater power with less recoil and chamber pressure than a .44 Magnum so it COULD be a viable firearm. My concern would be that, since the rifling is shallow and near the end of the barrel, the rifling is not deep enough nor long enough to matter much so accuracy would suffer.

    But, I have a good friend who has one and he seems to enjoy it and, on that factor, it is OK as entertainment. He also seems to like the recoil and, if intimidation is part of the equation, it does the job because it can be a little disconcerting to be staring at a revolver which not only has a large large barrel-end, but also the remaining cartridges can be easily be seen as the gun meaning business.

    For me though, I would have to think that there are better, more accurate, .45LC handguns without the .410 option out there that would achieve the same thing.
    But people live in other places than Michigan so snakes may be an issue. I argue that in a survival situation in the wilds of say Alaska/Canada this would be a decent gun. It could kill all kinds of small birds (I'll eat any small bird if hungry enough) and ptarmigan are so gregarious people have killed them with sticks, so 15 to 20 feet may be viable for many small birds and some grouse. If the animal is a fox, coyote, deer, etc the .45 is the choice to make.

    I wouldn't choose it for my primary hunting gun other than in the situations above, well maybe for deer in Michigan...for fun.). But since I have never fired the weapon I really have no idea what I'm talking about.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  21. #21
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    When I first saw this on my BB, I wasn't even going to argue BUT, when I saw it was Venator and I could have some fun, well, how could I pass up this chance

    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    But people live in other places than Michigan so snakes may be an issue.

    You would be correct if I had posted this on the gerneral OCDO forum or a state's forum that has a plethera of snakes. But this is the MICHIGAN subforum of OCDO...just as I wouldn't go to New Mexico's subforum to learn about Michigan's gun laws, I wouldn't go to Michigan's subforum to hear opinions about whether a Taurus Judge is an good-choice for EDC because of snakes.

    I argue that in a survival situation in the wilds of say Alaska/Canada this would be a decent gun. I already talked about the aplicability of what's posted here to other states. But, if you had a choice, are you saying that you would pick the Taurus over a .410 shotgun or, maybe even better, a.22 or even better yet, a Rossi 22LR w/18.5" Barrel/410 Gauge w/22" Barrel Blue Synthetic?? But, I would chose a 12 gauge shorty if legal there over a .410 bore in Alaska anyday... but this is Michigan. http://www.pistolandpawn.com/store/i...ducts_id=68998

    It could kill all kinds of small birds (I'll eat any small bird if hungry enough) and ptarmigan are so gregarious people have killed them with sticks, so 15 to 20 feet may be viable for many small birds and some grouse. So, now I don't need a firearm, just a stick? I certainly could have saved a lot of money by using a stick as my EDC... not to mention I could just throw it out and get a new one if I needed If the animal is a fox, coyote, deer, etc the .45 is the choice to make. "I do hunt deer w/ a handgun but a fox, coyote would be pretty hard to do w/ any handgun especially one with a 2.5" barrel. Even deer I would want at least a 6" barrel. If you really want that .45lc in a handgun, the best choice would be a G2 contender... but it is single-shot so not the best for everyday carry. Plus, you would probably need to hand load or buy from a specialty ammo maker. That would mean it would be pretty expensive, but if you hand load I'll give you a "maybe"..... However, I can think of many general possible EDC firearms that would be better suited for all you claim. One example, the .357mag w/ 6+ inch barrel. If you want, there are plenty of 44mag and a few 454 Casull, that would be fine too. The real questionable part of the Taurus judge is the .410 bore. Besides Ohio hunters, I don't know many people that actually use one for deer size on up.

    I wouldn't choose it for my primary hunting gun other than in the situations above, well maybe for deer in Michigan...for fun.). But since I have never fired the weapon I really have no idea what I'm talking about. Yep, it is legal and the .45lc is decent enough if loaded to it's potential but why chose this when there definitely are better choices. If you say "for fun"... then I can't argue that point!
    Last edited by DrTodd; 07-27-2010 at 05:05 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  22. #22
    Regular Member The Expert's Avatar
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    People like to rent these guns at Top Gun in Taylor all the time. They are quite impressive to shoot, if entirely impractical.
    I always open carry one of my Kimber 1911 pistols everywhere I go. Usually in a paddle holster. Nothing fancy, but it works for me.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    When I first saw this on my BB, I wasn't even going to argue BUT, when I saw it was Venator and I could have some fun, well, how could I pass up this chance
    Well I can't argue with that!
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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