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Taurus Judge is saw-off shotgun in California

Venator

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Lansing area, Michigan, USA
JOHN BOGERT: Second Amendment fans aim to change minds

By John Bogert, Staff Columnist for DAILY BREEZE.COM 07/18/2010

I received an interesting puzzle from Dr. John Elfmont of Redondo Beach. "Enclosed you will find a picture of three revolvers, which are illegal in California. If you can tell me (from your own knowledge) why they are illegal, I'll come over and take you to lunch. There is a larger, more important point to be made which I think will interest you."


The revolvers pictured were manufactured by Taurus, "the world's foremost pistol maker." At first glance, all three looked not terribly different from a great number of weapons I have fired over the years except for one thing. All of them had really long cylinders to, obviously, accommodate really long cartridges. But aside from one of the handguns being partially made of a nonmetallic composite, I didn't notice anything amiss until I saw that the models called The Judge, The Judge 3-inch Magnum and The Judge Public Defender can fire ".410 gauge, 2.5-inch shotshells."

Thinking back to what I know - and most of what I know comes from pistol-shooting courses taken for stories and from a childhood where Dad and I would hoist a freshly-shot-to-death deer onto the right front bumper of the Ford - it came to me. Actually, what came to me first was a variation on an old saying, "Shoot them all and leave the judging to God."


That and the fact that a .410 gauge is a shotgun shell! These guns are illegal in California because they are essentially little sawed-off shotguns. After e-mailing my guess to the good doctor, he replied in part, "That you can shoot these from the Judge doesn't make the Judge a sawed-off shotgun ... it makes legislators creative in their wording of laws.


The only person I know of personally who was killed in gun violence in this area was the brother of one of my office staff. ... It involved an ex-girlfriend and a shot fired from 12 feet away ... by a .22 short bullet. ... But he was no less dead than if he'd been shot by some `illegal' gun from a mile away.


"Bad guys will always find ways to have guns, and since the Constitution, and now the Supreme Court, have ruled in my favor, I resent attempts to circumvent my Second Amendment rights, as you would resent attempts to circumvent your First Amendment rights. "Two former colleagues were robbed, and the wife of one was sexually assaulted, during home invasions. None of the perpetrators paid any attention to gun control laws. But I hope to provide a better outcome should any malfeasors break into my house."


ON OPEN CARRY

And there was this: "My name is Sam Wolanyk. I'm the chairman of Responsible Citizens of California, a carry advocacy group. Here's how you know whether someone is a law abiding open-carrier or whether they are intending to empty their firearm into your children: Criminals and psychos don't open-carry. They illegally conceal.

"Go find yourself a cop and ask him if he has even seen a criminal open-carry. The answer is no. It's so absurd it's laughable. The dumbest crook in the world wouldn't advertise that he is carrying a weapon. Ask Lori Saldana (D-San Diego and an opponent of open-carry) if there has ever been a case, in any of the states, of an open carrier committing a crime with his firearm.

"Every time you are out in public there are people who are carrying guns illegally concealed. When one of those concealed guns becomes visible this means that the criminal intends to use it. Unarmed, you have the options of begging, blubbering, hoping, praying and calling 911 to have the police arrive in time to verify that you and your kid are dead. "All because you didn't have the ability to protect your family.

Do I expect or hope for confrontation? Absolutely not. Nor do I expect or hope for my house to burn down, but I've got smoke alarms and fire extinguishers."
 

DrTodd

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California defines a short barreled shotgun as:

A short-barreled shotgun means a firearm designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell that has a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length or an overall length of less than 26 inches; any weapon made from a shotgun which meets the barrel length or overall length criteria; any device which may be restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell and which meets the barrel length or overall
length criteria; or any part or combination of parts designed and intended to convert a device into a short-barreled shotgun or which would permit an individual to readily assemble a short-barreled shotgun. (Penal Code § 12020(c)(1).)
 

DrTodd

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New York is sort of like that too, but to a person's benefit. The point that I continually try to make on OCDO is that the definition any legislature ascribes to some aspect of the law is important.
In New York, rifles, shotguns, and handguns are regulated by law. One notable exception is a shotgun with a rifled barrel. So, a person could not carry a shotgun, rifle, or handgun without a permit, but a "slug gun" could be so carried. This is because New York defines a shotgun as:

A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder, and, even if not designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder, is not a firearm as defined in subdivision one of this section, and designed or redesigned, and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell, to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger.

So, since it is designed to be shot from the shoulder but has a rifled barrel, a "slug gun" would not be considered a shotgun. :)

There are other exceptions, too...
see http://www.donath.org/Rants/NYSpecial/
 
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Bronson

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Jul 14, 2008
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Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
California defines a short barreled shotgun as:

A short-barreled shotgun means afirearm designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell that has a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length or an overall length of less than 26 inches; any weapon made from a shotgun which meets the barrel length or overall length criteria; any device which may be restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell...

What is meant by the word "fixed" in this context? Would the Judge not qualify because the shell is not "fixed" in position but housed in a rotating cylinder?

Just wondering.

Bronson
 

Venator

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I'm all for the outlawing of Taurus judges, just because they are an absurd weapon.

hilariously absurd!
It would be a decent survival gun in the wild as you could kill birds (Shot) and larger game (slug/pistol) for food. Bush pilots might consider having one in the survival gear (compact where space is a premium) with boxes of both shot and slugs/pistol loads.
 

jmlefler

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May 19, 2008
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Location
Southwest, Michigan, USA
California defines a short barreled shotgun as:

A short-barreled shotgun means a firearm designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell that has a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length or an overall length of less than 26 inches; any weapon made from a shotgun which meets the barrel length or overall length criteria; any device which may be restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell and which meets the barrel length or overall
length criteria; or any part or combination of parts designed and intended to convert a device into a short-barreled shotgun or which would permit an individual to readily assemble a short-barreled shotgun. (Penal Code § 12020(c)(1).)

Crikey! That's at least every .38 and .357 revolver ever produced!

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=757831

Carry on
 

Glock2010

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The way I understand it, the purpose of the sawed off shotgun laws, was to outlaw modifications to a non-concealable weapon that would make it concealable. They assumed anyone with motivation to do this had ill intent.

Handguns were regulated while shotguns weren’t. So by modifying a shotgun you effectively make a handgun. That’s what the laws were intending to avoid. With CC permitting, this law becomes obsolete, anyone with a carry permit should be able to carry a sawed off shot gun, but that’s not how it is. Lawmakers “forgot” why the original laws was made and began a Jihad against any short shotgun or derivative of. I’m not a legal expert but I think a repeal of the sawed off shotgun law, or an amendment exempting handgun permitted individuals makes sense. We already have laws that prohibit carrying of handguns by non-permitting individuals, we don’t need the sawed-off shot gun law.

Outlawing the Judge, is a gross misinterpretation of the spirit of the original “sawed off shotgun” law.
 

Venator

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The way I understand it, the purpose of the sawed off shotgun laws, was to outlaw modifications to a non-concealable weapon that would make it concealable. They assumed anyone with motivation to do this had ill intent.

Handguns were regulated while shotguns weren’t. So by modifying a shotgun you effectively make a handgun. That’s what the laws were intending to avoid. With CC permitting, this law becomes obsolete, anyone with a carry permit should be able to carry a sawed off shot gun, but that’s not how it is. Lawmakers “forgot” why the original laws was made and began a Jihad against any short shotgun or derivative of. I’m not a legal expert but I think a repeal of the sawed off shotgun law, or an amendment exempting handgun permitted individuals makes sense. We already have laws that prohibit carrying of handguns by non-permitting individuals, we don’t need the sawed-off shot gun law.

Outlawing the Judge, is a gross misinterpretation of the spirit of the original “sawed off shotgun” law.

Remember this is in California.
 

eastmeyers

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Hazel Park, Michigan, USA
The bolded area is what I carry issue with. I personally have a CPL but my girlfriend doesn't but she still carries her pistol. I didn't know such a law existed. Please site, and remember you are in the Michigan forum (I don't know where you are from since you don't have it listed).
:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

The way I understand it, the purpose of the sawed off shotgun laws, was to outlaw modifications to a non-concealable weapon that would make it concealable. They assumed anyone with motivation to do this had ill intent.

Handguns were regulated while shotguns weren’t. So by modifying a shotgun you effectively make a handgun. That’s what the laws were intending to avoid. With CC permitting, this law becomes obsolete, anyone with a carry permit should be able to carry a sawed off shot gun, but that’s not how it is. Lawmakers “forgot” why the original laws was made and began a Jihad against any short shotgun or derivative of. I’m not a legal expert but I think a repeal of the sawed off shotgun law, or an amendment exempting handgun permitted individuals makes sense. We already have laws that prohibit carrying of handguns by non-permitting individuals, we don’t need the sawed-off shot gun law.

Outlawing the Judge, is a gross misinterpretation of the spirit of the original “sawed off shotgun” law.
 

choover

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I'm all for the outlawing of Taurus judges, just because they are an absurd weapon.

hilariously absurd!


They have been working on making ammo specifically for them, 2.5 inch shells, 4- 36 caliber balls in each at something like 950 FPS out of a 2 or 2.5 inch barrel if I am not mistake and at 7-10 yards the pattern was very impressive . With them making ammo to perform in the gun it is actually far from absurd and would be a awesome self defense weapon. I admit I did not like it at first but as with any gun once the ammo catches up to whats needed the outlook changes drastically
 
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DrTodd

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Jun 20, 2008
Messages
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Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
I'm all for the outlawing of Taurus judges, just because they are an absurd weapon.

hilariously absurd!

I think the issue is one of marketing... Taurus has done an effective job in getting the product within the public eye.

IMHO, the problem with the firearm itself is the rifling: rifling helps when using pistol cartridges but negatively affects shot loads. Since there is a shallow rifling at the end of the barrel, I'm afraid that I have to agree somewhat w/ kyleplusitunes if we are talking about small game. I would not use the .410 shell because, due to the rifled barrel and, of course, lack of choke, pellets scatter quickly on leaving the barrel. I certainly would not attempt a shot on small game past 15 feet with a typical load. IMHO, the comments about small-game are assuming too much from a .410 in a short, rifled barrel. If we are concerned about snakes, I really don't see that as a major issue here in Michigan; the Eastern Massasauga Rattlesnake is Michigan's only venomous snake and is quite rare to encounter.
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12145_12201-32995--,00.html

However, the .45 Long Colt, when loaded to its potential, produces greater power with less recoil and chamber pressure than a .44 Magnum so it COULD be a viable firearm. My concern would be that, since the rifling is shallow and near the end of the barrel, the rifling is not deep enough nor long enough to matter much so accuracy would suffer.

But, I have a good friend who has one and he seems to enjoy it and, on that factor, it is OK as entertainment. He also seems to like the recoil and, if intimidation is part of the equation, it does the job because it can be a little disconcerting to be staring at a revolver which not only has a large large barrel-end, but also the remaining cartridges can be easily be seen as the gun meaning business.

For me though, I would have to think that there are better, more accurate, .45LC handguns without the .410 option out there that would achieve the same thing.
 
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Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
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I think the issue is one of marketing... Taurus has done an effective job in getting the product within the public eye.

IMHO, the problem with the firearm itself is the rifling: rifling helps when using pistol cartridges but negatively affects shot loads. Since there is a shallow rifling at the end of the barrel, I'm afraid that I have to agree somewhat w/ kyleplusitunes if we are talking about small game. I would not use the .410 shell because, due to the rifled barrel and, of course, lack of choke, pellets scatter quickly on leaving the barrel. I certainly would not attempt a shot on small game past 15 feet with a typical load. IMHO, the comments about small-game are assuming too much from a .410 in a short, rifled barrel. If we are concerned about snakes, I really don't see that as a major issue here in Michigan; the Eastern Massasauga Rattlesnake is Michigan's only venomous snake and is quite rare to encounter.
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12145_12201-32995--,00.html

However, the .45 Long Colt, when loaded to its potential, produces greater power with less recoil and chamber pressure than a .44 Magnum so it COULD be a viable firearm. My concern would be that, since the rifling is shallow and near the end of the barrel, the rifling is not deep enough nor long enough to matter much so accuracy would suffer.

But, I have a good friend who has one and he seems to enjoy it and, on that factor, it is OK as entertainment. He also seems to like the recoil and, if intimidation is part of the equation, it does the job because it can be a little disconcerting to be staring at a revolver which not only has a large large barrel-end, but also the remaining cartridges can be easily be seen as the gun meaning business.

For me though, I would have to think that there are better, more accurate, .45LC handguns without the .410 option out there that would achieve the same thing.

But people live in other places than Michigan so snakes may be an issue. I argue that in a survival situation in the wilds of say Alaska/Canada this would be a decent gun. It could kill all kinds of small birds (I'll eat any small bird if hungry enough) and ptarmigan are so gregarious people have killed them with sticks, so 15 to 20 feet may be viable for many small birds and some grouse. If the animal is a fox, coyote, deer, etc the .45 is the choice to make.

I wouldn't choose it for my primary hunting gun other than in the situations above, well maybe for deer in Michigan...for fun.). But since I have never fired the weapon I really have no idea what I'm talking about.
 
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