Cobra469
Regular Member
OK so I didn't read far enough down before I pressed the quote button. Sorry.
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Farm & Fleet Firearm Prohibition
- Thread starter Flipper
- Start date
OK so I didn't read far enough down before I pressed the quote button. Sorry.
paul@paul-fisher.com
Regular Member
M
McX
Guest
sorry guys, had to try this one out here....
dang it, didn't work, the little deer is supposed to be munching on the popcorn. guess it lost something in translation.
dang it, didn't work, the little deer is supposed to be munching on the popcorn. guess it lost something in translation.
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kd6sxa
Regular Member
Shotgun
Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
You have a reason to believe it, you simply are concluding that you have an insufficient reason.
Heresay evidence is admissible in court under certain circumstances. A sign on the door of a store is heresay to a degree, since it is not the owner of the store directly telling you something. If you had the store manager on the witness stand and he said "The owner told me we should not allow guns in the store." do you believe your lawyer would be successful objecting to the statement as heresay? Judges have a degree of latitude, often wide, in deciding what evidence is admissible.
Heresay evidence is admissible in court under certain circumstances. A sign on the door of a store is heresay to a degree, since it is not the owner of the store directly telling you something. If you had the store manager on the witness stand and he said "The owner told me we should not allow guns in the store." do you believe your lawyer would be successful objecting to the statement as heresay? Judges have a degree of latitude, often wide, in deciding what evidence is admissible.
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Cobra469
Regular Member
Probably I'm just trying to point out that just because somebody else tells me about an encounter when they were informed that firearms are not welcome does not mean that I am legally informed of this policy. After all I could claim that Sears bans all fat jolly men in red suits during the month of December. Oh snap now if Santa read that he has to move his whole photo shoot. Regardless of what I read on forums about a business if a representative from their company doesn't post it or otherwise directly notify me of it, I don't believe it would be a correct notification. Besides most of the time if it is not posted then the police will tell you to leave or management will. Being there isn't illegal until they tell you to leave. Unless of course your intentionally going there to harass them about it. Then that would be a different story.
But the end is still the same. I have no obligation to believe anything that is said on a forum.
So this letter means nothing?
"Thank you for your inquiry. Blain's Farm & Fleet does have a "Weapons Free Environment" policy. Our policy reads in part, "To safeguard our employees, our customers and the general public, we absolutely prohibit any employee, vendor, supplier or customer to bring or possess firearms (including but not limited to handguns, regardless of any authorized permit), explosives or any dangerous weapons or objects on Blain's Farm & Fleet premises or at Blain's Farm & Fleet sponsored events."
Best Regards,
Gary H.
Vice President - Loss Prevention / Risk Management "
(Thanks Shotgun.)
So even after reading this if you were to go into a f&f you could say you were not "legally informed" of the policy? If thats the case, you are saying I would be "ok" to carry in any other f&f until told not to do so by the manager there?
"Thank you for your inquiry. Blain's Farm & Fleet does have a "Weapons Free Environment" policy. Our policy reads in part, "To safeguard our employees, our customers and the general public, we absolutely prohibit any employee, vendor, supplier or customer to bring or possess firearms (including but not limited to handguns, regardless of any authorized permit), explosives or any dangerous weapons or objects on Blain's Farm & Fleet premises or at Blain's Farm & Fleet sponsored events."
Best Regards,
Gary H.
Vice President - Loss Prevention / Risk Management "
(Thanks Shotgun.)
So even after reading this if you were to go into a f&f you could say you were not "legally informed" of the policy? If thats the case, you are saying I would be "ok" to carry in any other f&f until told not to do so by the manager there?
paul@paul-fisher.com
Regular Member
Yes, they didn't send that to me.
kd6sxa
Regular Member
Reading something on a forum is not the same as reading a sign or having the manager tell me to take my gun out of the store.
hardballer
Regular Member
The letter to Mlutz is plenty for me to stand with a fellow member. It appears that Farm and fleet has taken a stand against us. A slap in our collective face and pizzing on the United States Constitution as well as the Wisconsin Constitution.
That is; for me, plenty of info to not buy another thing from Farm and Fleet. I will continue to support a ban of shopping at Farm & Fleet until I hear that they have changed their policy to align it with state law.
They have all the right in the world to make their policy as it stands and I have all the right in the world to shop elsewhere. S-P-E-N-D my money elsewhere. So be it.
Hardballer out.
That is; for me, plenty of info to not buy another thing from Farm and Fleet. I will continue to support a ban of shopping at Farm & Fleet until I hear that they have changed their policy to align it with state law.
They have all the right in the world to make their policy as it stands and I have all the right in the world to shop elsewhere. S-P-E-N-D my money elsewhere. So be it.
Hardballer out.
B
bhancock
Guest
'Official' Policy
First of all don't take this as a defense of F&F. I worked for a company 20+ years ago that as a matter of policy did not allow us managers to carry a firearm. They said if the BG had a gun that was one gun too many and did not want to be liable for any injury caused by a manager defending themselves and employees from said BG. They did state however that they would not be aggressively enforcing this policy and that if a manager made the choice to carry, the company would not back or defend them legally, that we would have to provide our own defense to any lawsuit or criminal charges that may be a result of said action.
Since I had carried at F&F previous to this knowledge without incident and many on the forum seem to have the same experience, it may be possible that some misguided legal eagle on the F&F team has decided that if they allow Open Carry they could somehow be liable for any injury or death that may result from some action taken by an open carrier.
I carried in Onalaska F&F today even though I had decided I would avoid them if possible. I was made by at least a dozen employees, all noticed but acted no differently than if I had been wearing a Hawaiian shirt. The checkout lady was very indifferent to the two customers ahead of me, but to me she was all smiles and genuinely friendly. Chatted me up and made sure she didn't hand my ammunition purchase to one of the kids I had with me who was reaching for the bag. She didn't make a big deal about it, just told him she should hand the bag to me first since it was ammunition and if I wanted him to carry it, that was up to me.
I haven't heard a thing back from F&F on the web contact. I am getting the feeling they may be ignoring the requests for clarification because they are not real solid on the position and for obvious reasons don't want to take a hard stand against Open Carriers. If they were serious about it, they would post signs.
First of all don't take this as a defense of F&F. I worked for a company 20+ years ago that as a matter of policy did not allow us managers to carry a firearm. They said if the BG had a gun that was one gun too many and did not want to be liable for any injury caused by a manager defending themselves and employees from said BG. They did state however that they would not be aggressively enforcing this policy and that if a manager made the choice to carry, the company would not back or defend them legally, that we would have to provide our own defense to any lawsuit or criminal charges that may be a result of said action.
Since I had carried at F&F previous to this knowledge without incident and many on the forum seem to have the same experience, it may be possible that some misguided legal eagle on the F&F team has decided that if they allow Open Carry they could somehow be liable for any injury or death that may result from some action taken by an open carrier.
I carried in Onalaska F&F today even though I had decided I would avoid them if possible. I was made by at least a dozen employees, all noticed but acted no differently than if I had been wearing a Hawaiian shirt. The checkout lady was very indifferent to the two customers ahead of me, but to me she was all smiles and genuinely friendly. Chatted me up and made sure she didn't hand my ammunition purchase to one of the kids I had with me who was reaching for the bag. She didn't make a big deal about it, just told him she should hand the bag to me first since it was ammunition and if I wanted him to carry it, that was up to me.
I haven't heard a thing back from F&F on the web contact. I am getting the feeling they may be ignoring the requests for clarification because they are not real solid on the position and for obvious reasons don't want to take a hard stand against Open Carriers. If they were serious about it, they would post signs.
hardballer
Regular Member
I guess I am not understanding here.
The point as I read it is not that on an individual basis we can carry in Farm & Fleet despite a corporate policy (kinda sneakily getting away with something) to the contrary but rather, that they have a corporate policy that bans our carry on their property. I don't like that.
The point is not that you can get away with carrying, but that they either have a corporate policy in line with the state law or they do not. If not, they do not get my business regardless of what is happening on the ground. In my opinion, it does no good to enter their store until this is changed. As a matter of fact, it is counterproductive to our cause. Again; IMHO.
Maybe I'm seeing this wrong. Perhaps someone can correct me here.
The point as I read it is not that on an individual basis we can carry in Farm & Fleet despite a corporate policy (kinda sneakily getting away with something) to the contrary but rather, that they have a corporate policy that bans our carry on their property. I don't like that.
The point is not that you can get away with carrying, but that they either have a corporate policy in line with the state law or they do not. If not, they do not get my business regardless of what is happening on the ground. In my opinion, it does no good to enter their store until this is changed. As a matter of fact, it is counterproductive to our cause. Again; IMHO.
Maybe I'm seeing this wrong. Perhaps someone can correct me here.
AdamXD
Regular Member
Big chain businesses USUALLY (imho) have two sets of rules; corporate policy, and the Store Manager's altered policy. All of the big chain corporations I have worked with over the years follow this setup to a degree. The store manager may or may not strictly adhere to what Corporate enacts. When I worked for Best Buy, the store manager had some of her own policies, some modified policies, and even ignored some of Corporate's policies because she didn't think they helped sell product and make the store run more smoothly.
For all we know F&F is subject to the same kind of leadership. Some people follow the rules to the "T" and some don't. If the employee's at one store are taught different, they will never know that the up&ups have a policy that says different. If the policy that is being broken/modified/unenforced/ignored blows up in their face, i.e, a BG starts shooting as is stopped by an OC'er returning fire, lawsuits will likely arise from the injured. The BG could even sue F&F for not enforcing their gun ban which resulted in them getting shot. But that all depends on if the BG lived.
Until this sort of stylized leadership information is public knowledge, we don't know for a fact. Speculation is purely that, speculation.
As Doug always says, "Believe nothing that you read or hear without verifying it yourself unless it fits your preexisting worldview."
If F&F doesn't have a posted list of all their policies for their managers/employees to search through, how can we, as customers, be expected to know them? If you OC in F&F and are asked to leave, say "Okay, I shall gladly take my money elsewhere." Problem solved.
For all we know F&F is subject to the same kind of leadership. Some people follow the rules to the "T" and some don't. If the employee's at one store are taught different, they will never know that the up&ups have a policy that says different. If the policy that is being broken/modified/unenforced/ignored blows up in their face, i.e, a BG starts shooting as is stopped by an OC'er returning fire, lawsuits will likely arise from the injured. The BG could even sue F&F for not enforcing their gun ban which resulted in them getting shot. But that all depends on if the BG lived.
Until this sort of stylized leadership information is public knowledge, we don't know for a fact. Speculation is purely that, speculation.
As Doug always says, "Believe nothing that you read or hear without verifying it yourself unless it fits your preexisting worldview."
If F&F doesn't have a posted list of all their policies for their managers/employees to search through, how can we, as customers, be expected to know them? If you OC in F&F and are asked to leave, say "Okay, I shall gladly take my money elsewhere." Problem solved.
Shotgun
Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
True enough. Only religions and quasi-religious entities say that a person has an "obligation" to believe something.
Belief isn't normally a phenomenon based on duty or obligation, it's based on reason. A reasonable person believes something with a strength that is proportional to the amount of evidence that supports it. To strongly believe something that has little or no supporting evidence is either an act of faith, or an act of gullibility-- depending upon your view of faith.
If anyone here is saying that they have no reason to believe F&F has a no guns policy, you're wrong. You have at least some reason, perhaps not as strong as your reason to believe the sun will rise again tomorrow, but a reason nonetheless.
And if you believe there is such a policy-- but because it has never been expressed personally to you, you will continue to shop there-- then you're saying you'll knowingly support a business with an anti-gun policy in place (and disrespect their policy to boot.)
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paul@paul-fisher.com
Regular Member
I can only speak for myself. What I was saying is that I can go to F&F and OC because no one in authority has told me I can't. I didn't says I was going to, as a matter of fact, since I have heard the policy, I have emailed F&F expressing my displeasure (haven't heard anything back) and haven't been to one. I do not plan on going to one until they fix the policy. My argument was more theoretical than actual.
hardballer
Regular Member
Cool Paul, Thank you for clarifying your position here. I am adamant about not supporting businesses that think because they are "private" they can slap my face. Customer here. The best policy in this economic climate is to take a neutral stand and follow state law instead of some slimy, ambulance chasers opinion. If they did that, I would have no problem with them.
As for what I have read in this forum thread, I am seriously wondering who has my back. This isn't a trivial matter nor is it a personal matter. It is out in the open and demonstrates weakness to those who don't share our views and encourages and empowers them.
If this is just a semantical argument, mental masturbation, I am sorry but I am more serious about the Constitution. It bothers me, hurts my heart to have it trampled by someone who is spitting on the flag because of their opinion that it is safer if we just don't defend ourselves.
I'm not OK with that and if we want to change things, we must use the power we as customers have. The power we as a united group of Constitutionally bound, Law Abiding Citizens have and make our case known to the powers that be.
If we are not together, we are nothing and they will "grind our bones to make their bread".
logan
Campaign Veteran
If I didn't mind confrontation, I'd probably OC in Valley View Mall myself. There are no signs and there is nothing about the "no weapons policy" on their website. Apparently the only way to know about the policy is to carry in there and get seen or reported, or to go to the security office and ask them yourself.
So just like other companies that have a hidden "no firearms" policy...just keep on carrying there until you are informed of the policy by management. They can't expect you to follow the policy when it's not posted for everyone to see. It should be posted for everyone to see before you even walk into the store. That way you can turn around and go shopping somewhere else.
Edit to add:
But when I am informed that a company has a no firearms policy, I do try to avoid them. I went to F&F a few times to buy cheap ammo locally. They even had a 10% off all ammo one time. But because of hearing about this (and because I'm poor and got enough rounds), I won't be going back.
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hardballer
Regular Member
Logan, I agree, these companies should be up front about their disdain for the Constitution. If they have such a policy against Open Carry, it should be displayed. Why wouldn't it be? Because they are afraid of a financial backlash.
It's not like the mall doesn't have a copier or a computer or laminater or could get it done for some technical reason. It is because they want your dollars. They would rather single you out and boot your azz out the door than put up a cheap sign at every entrance. Deceptive, deceitful, greedy. I forgot dishonorable and the fact that it is a slap in the face of all patriotic Americans. When they disarm you, trample your Constitutional rights, spit on the Flag. They dishonor themselves and you.