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Thread: E checked in Lodi today

  1. #1
    Regular Member JJ's Avatar
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    E checked in Lodi today

    So I returned home today after spending a couple days in South Lake Tahoe. Glock 20 on my right, two 15 round mags on my left.

    While riding my Goldwing motorcycle through Lodi on Kettleman Lane I saw him too late. A bike cop parked on the right pointing his radar gun at me. Crap. My wife of twenty years had two requests of me during my trip, and one of them was "don't get a ticket, we can't afford it". (because she just paid HER $222 speeding ticket!)

    So Officer Freeman pulls out behind me and displays all his pretty lights to me. Double crap, wifey is not going to be happy and I'm surely about to be violated. I pull off Kettleman to the right onto a side street and stop in a very small patch of shade very close to the curb. Officer Freeman pulls in behind me, in the sun.

    Although I am wise enough to have my voice recorder strapped around my neck, I was not smart enough to activate it immediately (I had time before the "hands on your head" command) as I am focused on making sure my hands stay on the handlebars after I stop, I didn't even turn the ignition key off.

    So after Officer Freeman gets stopped he issues the command and I comply, placing my hands on my helmet. He approaches (his weapon still holstered) on my right and asks if I am a police officer. I reply in the negative, and add that I am legally openly carrying unloaded. He advises that he needs to do an e check. I reply that I do not consent to any search or seizures of my person or property but will not resist if he still intends to attempt an e check.

    After some pushing and pulling he manages to remove my Glock and confirm its status as unloaded. He then asks if I have ammo. "Yes, I have loaded magazines on my left side." He instructs me he is going to hold my property until we are done. Duh. I'm parked in the gutter parallel to the curb (the shade!) facing forward. As another officer pulls up across the street I notice out of the corner of my eye, behind me, instead of writing a ticket Officer Freeman seems to be looking at the serial number on my Glock.

    As I voice my objections, and tell him the only violation the law currently allows is the 12031e check, I realize I did not activate my recorder and now turn it on as I ask officer Freeman if he suspects me of committing any crimes other than a traffic violation. He then hands my gun to the other officer and repeats he's gonna hold onto it until we're done since "you have ammo and we don't want it to become loaded".

    While Freeman writes my ticket (49 in a 35, stupid me) officer #2 asks why I carry. I give the standard answers, and then educate him on the Supreme Courts ruling in McDonald vs. Chicago and how the ruling applies to all the states. By now there are six officers on scene. None of the other officers ever approached me. The officers didn't lecture me and returned the respect I gave them. They did say it is something they're not used to seeing. I said that's part of the problem and we're working on it!

    After I signed and received a copy of my ticket Freeman placed my gun back into my holster. The entire encounter took about ten minutes. They all hung out and didn't seem to be in a hurry to leave. A quick check of my GPS showed a school about a half a mile down the road so I got off my bike (I was told to stay on it during the stop) and opened the side case on my bike to get my lock box. I announced my intention to secure my firearm "until I get out of town" to the crowd of officers, to which one replied, "Why? Everyone that is working has already seen you." LOL

    Freeman then thanked me for my cooperation. I asked if they had received any memos on OC, he said they had, but he had only encountered one other open carrier. (a security guard on a bike on his way to work in street clothes)

    I'm not sure if Freeman had completed the serial number check on my gun before I saw what was going on, but he did put it down as soon as I objected.

  2. #2
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Welcome to the '(e) check' club. Sounds like you could have prevented the process if you paid heed to the speed limit, but Im glad it all went smoothly.

    With the recorders that are available these days, it really isnt necessary to leave it off until you need it unless you prefer to keep your audio 'private'. Just turn it on and let it run until you are to your destination with your liberties secure.

    While they may have stepped over the line in recording your s/n, the duration didnt deviate much from a typical traffic infraction- so no foul there.

    It appears that this was a pretty neutral encounter. Nice job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JJ View Post
    So I returned home today after spending a couple days in South Lake Tahoe. Glock 20 on my right, two 15 round mags on my left.

    While riding my Goldwing motorcycle through Lodi on Kettleman Lane I saw him too late. A bike cop parked on the right pointing his radar gun at me. Crap. My wife of twenty years had two requests of me during my trip, and one of them was "don't get a ticket, we can't afford it". (because she just paid HER $222 speeding ticket!)

    So Officer Freeman pulls out behind me and displays all his pretty lights to me. Double crap, wifey is not going to be happy and I'm surely about to be violated. I pull off Kettleman to the right onto a side street and stop in a very small patch of shade very close to the curb. Officer Freeman pulls in behind me, in the sun.

    Although I am wise enough to have my voice recorder strapped around my neck, I was not smart enough to activate it immediately (I had time before the "hands on your head" command) as I am focused on making sure my hands stay on the handlebars after I stop, I didn't even turn the ignition key off.

    So after Officer Freeman gets stopped he issues the command and I comply, placing my hands on my helmet. He approaches (his weapon still holstered) on my right and asks if I am a police officer. I reply in the negative, and add that I am legally openly carrying unloaded. He advises that he needs to do an e check. I reply that I do not consent to any search or seizures of my person or property but will not resist if he still intends to attempt an e check.

    After some pushing and pulling he manages to remove my Glock and confirm its status as unloaded. He then asks if I have ammo. "Yes, I have loaded magazines on my left side." He instructs me he is going to hold my property until we are done. Duh. I'm parked in the gutter parallel to the curb (the shade!) facing forward. As another officer pulls up across the street I notice out of the corner of my eye, behind me, instead of writing a ticket Officer Freeman seems to be looking at the serial number on my Glock.

    As I voice my objections, and tell him the only violation the law currently allows is the 12031e check, I realize I did not activate my recorder and now turn it on as I ask officer Freeman if he suspects me of committing any crimes other than a traffic violation. He then hands my gun to the other officer and repeats he's gonna hold onto it until we're done since "you have ammo and we don't want it to become loaded".

    While Freeman writes my ticket (49 in a 35, stupid me) officer #2 asks why I carry. I give the standard answers, and then educate him on the Supreme Courts ruling in McDonald vs. Chicago and how the ruling applies to all the states. By now there are six officers on scene. None of the other officers ever approached me. The officers didn't lecture me and returned the respect I gave them. They did say it is something they're not used to seeing. I said that's part of the problem and we're working on it!

    After I signed and received a copy of my ticket Freeman placed my gun back into my holster. The entire encounter took about ten minutes. They all hung out and didn't seem to be in a hurry to leave. A quick check of my GPS showed a school about a half a mile down the road so I got off my bike (I was told to stay on it during the stop) and opened the side case on my bike to get my lock box. I announced my intention to secure my firearm "until I get out of town" to the crowd of officers, to which one replied, "Why? Everyone that is working has already seen you." LOL

    Freeman then thanked me for my cooperation. I asked if they had received any memos on OC, he said they had, but he had only encountered one other open carrier. (a security guard on a bike on his way to work in street clothes)

    I'm not sure if Freeman had completed the serial number check on my gun before I saw what was going on, but he did put it down as soon as I objected.
    All in all not a bad 12031e check. And good "heads-up" thinking by not reaching for your voice recorder after you had stopped. If you could not activate it before pulling over, DON'T do it (by putting a hand out of sight to the front of your jacket) after you've just stopped. The serial number check sucks, but it could've been worse.
    As the song goes "Oh Lord, I'm stuck in Lodi again......"

  4. #4
    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelie19 View Post
    all in all not a bad 12031e check. And good "heads-up" thinking by not reaching for your voice recorder after you had stopped. If you could not activate it before pulling over, don't do it (by putting a hand out of sight to the front of your jacket) after you've just stopped. The serial number check sucks, but it could've been worse.
    As the song goes "oh lord, i'm stuck in lodi again......"
    creedence clearwater rivival

    As a Harley rider, I will say this: Riding any bike over a 500 cc at the speed limit or under is next to impossible.
    Last edited by Gundude; 07-23-2010 at 01:36 AM.
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

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    two 15 round mags on my left?

    Nice good thing they don't tend to look for high capacity clips.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev_sole View Post
    Nice good thing they don't tend to look for high capacity clips.
    Good thing is right since a glock does not use clips.

  7. #7
    Regular Member JJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev_sole View Post
    Nice good thing they don't tend to look for high capacity clips.

    I'm old. All my guns were purchased before the 10 round limit B.S.

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    Regular Member wewd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev_sole View Post
    Nice good thing they don't tend to look for high capacity clips.
    There is no law that says you can't own >10 round ammunition feeding devices.
    Do you want to enjoy liberty in your lifetime?

    Consider moving to New Hampshire as part of the Free State Project.

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gundude View Post
    creedence clearwater rivival

    As a Harley rider, I will say this: Riding any bike over a 500 cc at the speed limit or under is next to impossible.
    As a Biker who has been riding since the late 70's, I will say this: There is a gear shift pedal, a throttle and a brakes, it is very easy to control the exact speed that you are traveling. Any problems staying under the max speed limit have to do with the attitude of the rider, not the size of the machine.
    Last edited by Decoligny; 07-23-2010 at 11:31 AM.

  10. #10
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    magazine sorry

    magazine sorry it was late wen i posted, i have been reading the tread
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ine-law-please

    I was meaning that it is good that they don't look to hard at that because it would suck to be arrested
    for a crap a$$ hazy area of the law.

    I am sure there is some officer that would be happy to use that as a way to make an example of someone.
    Though it sound like the police in Lodi had nothing to do since they where all there.
    who would want to mess up a slow day with all that paper work anyway?

    have a safe happy Friday.

  11. #11
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    Bright Side

    I guess there is a bright side to UOC and (e)-checks. Not much of one, but we grab what we can.

    You guys don't have to suffer the indignity of having your gun emptied, handed back to you empty, with ammo in another hand, and being told not to reload until after the cop has driven off.

  12. #12
    Regular Member wewd's Avatar
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    Hope I wasn't the only one who appreciated the irony of Ofc. Freeman's name.
    Do you want to enjoy liberty in your lifetime?

    Consider moving to New Hampshire as part of the Free State Project.

    "Live Free or Die"

  13. #13
    Regular Member Mike Hunt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Decoligny View Post
    As a Biker who has been riding since the late 70's, I will say this: There is a gear shift pedal, a throttle and a brakes, it is very easy to control the exact speed that you are traveling. Any problems staying under the max speed limit have to do with the attitude of the rider, not the size of the machine.
    Ahh the twist of the wrist is hard to resist. I know this all too well. Hahahaha!!!

  14. #14
    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Hunt View Post
    Ahh the twist of the wrist is hard to resist. I know this all too well. Hahahaha!!!
    Get on a 1200 sportster and tell me you will obey the speed limit.....
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

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    Have a 88 ci softtail and streetglide am able to obey the speed limit on both and don't even need the brakes to do it!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev_sole View Post
    Nice good thing they don't tend to look for high capacity clips.
    Not trying to be a smart-alec here, as this is my first post.

    But as responsible gun owners / users, we need to be very sure that we are using the correct vocabulary.

    I don't know of any pistol that utilizes "clips". Semi-auto pistols are fed with MAGAZINES.

    15-round magazines are not "high capacity" 15-rounds is the industry STANDARD capacity. California law dictates that we all use LOW capacity magazines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JJ View Post
    I reply . . . that I am legally openly carrying unloaded. He advises that he needs to do an e check. I reply that I do not consent to any search or seizures of my person or property but will not resist if he still intends to attempt an e check.

    After some pushing and pulling he manages to remove my Glock and confirm its status as unloaded . . . instead of writing a ticket Officer Freeman seems to be looking at the serial number on my Glock.

    As I voice my objections, and tell him the only violation the law currently allows is the 12031e check, I realize I did not activate my recorder and now turn it on as I ask officer Freeman if he suspects me of committing any crimes other than a traffic violation . . .

    While Freeman writes my ticket (49 in a 35, stupid me) officer #2 asks why I carry. I give the standard answers, and then educate him on the Supreme Courts ruling in McDonald vs. Chicago and how the ruling applies to all the states.
    OP - this is OUTSTANDING!!! You did a fantastic job of calmly and smartly conveying the fact that you are:
    #1 well aware of your constitutional rights, and local laws, and
    #2 well within them

    Great job. Everyone should follow your examples and memorize these things. If everyone was as educated and level-headed as you, gun owners nationwide could go a lot farther.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAR_Squid79 View Post
    Not trying to be a smart-alec here, as this is my first post.

    But as responsible gun owners / users, we need to be very sure that we are using the correct vocabulary.

    I don't know of any pistol that utilizes "clips". Semi-auto pistols are fed with MAGAZINES.

    15-round magazines are not "high capacity" 15-rounds is the industry STANDARD capacity. California law dictates that we all use LOW capacity magazines.
    I found this one.
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

  19. #19
    Regular Member wewd's Avatar
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    Mauser C96 pistols are also fed with stripper clips.

    http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/mauser96.htm
    Do you want to enjoy liberty in your lifetime?

    Consider moving to New Hampshire as part of the Free State Project.

    "Live Free or Die"

  20. #20
    Regular Member JJ's Avatar
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    Thank you to all for your input and comments.

    I know I was dumb for speeding, especially down the main drag in Lodi.

    I know I should have had my recorder running already. Live and learn!

  21. #21
    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAR_Squid79 View Post
    Not trying to be a smart-alec here, as this is my first post.

    But as responsible gun owners / users, we need to be very sure that we are using the correct vocabulary.

    I don't know of any pistol that utilizes "clips". Semi-auto pistols are fed with MAGAZINES.

    15-round magazines are not "high capacity" 15-rounds is the industry STANDARD capacity. California law dictates that we all use LOW capacity magazines.
    Well I never knew there was an "industry standard" for magazines. My gun comes standard with an 8 round magazine all over the country, a 10 round mag is available. My wifes gun comes with a 7 round magazine standard, all over the country. They make 10, 15 and 25 round magazines aftermarket for her gun.

    California law dictates the we use magazines that hold no more than 10 rounds.
    California law defines any magazine that holds more than 10 rounds as a "Large Capacity" magazine.

    When dealing with California Penal Code, each word has a specific meaning, often times more than one meaning, depending upon which part of the Penal Code it is used in.

    When discussing the California Penal Code, it is critical to use the terminology that is listed in the PC CORRECTLY.

    If someone who is unfamiliar with the exact terminology hears a 15 round magazine refered to as a "Standard Capacity" magazine, and they have heard that a "Large Capacity" magazine is illegal, they may infer that a 15 round magazine is legal to purchase or bring into California. This person may commit a crime and go to jail because they misunderstood something because you used the improper terminology.

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    Regular Member ryanburbridge's Avatar
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    Good job. I like the outcome minus the ticket. After being involved in two over the top police contacts within one week I look forward to the next. I will change my tactics and see if my attitude can alter the outcome from me against them to me educating them. I have replayed both encounters in my head over and over. I will go out of my way to stay calm and informative. Time will only tell. Carry on.

  23. #23
    Regular Member JJ's Avatar
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    Lynard Skynard

    I just listened to the audio of my traffic stop again.

    I didn't realize it at the time, but when I started my motorcycle to leave, "Saturday Night Special" was playing on my mp3 player. I thought that was a little humorous, would've been better if "Gimme Back My Bullets" was playing though.........

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    Great Response!

    Quote Originally Posted by Decoligny View Post
    Well I never knew there was an "industry standard" for magazines. My gun comes standard with an 8 round magazine all over the country, a 10 round mag is available. My wifes gun comes with a 7 round magazine standard, all over the country. They make 10, 15 and 25 round magazines aftermarket for her gun.

    California law dictates the we use magazines that hold no more than 10 rounds.
    California law defines any magazine that holds more than 10 rounds as a "Large Capacity" magazine.

    When dealing with California Penal Code, each word has a specific meaning, often times more than one meaning, depending upon which part of the Penal Code it is used in.

    When discussing the California Penal Code, it is critical to use the terminology that is listed in the PC CORRECTLY.

    If someone who is unfamiliar with the exact terminology hears a 15 round magazine refered to as a "Standard Capacity" magazine, and they have heard that a "Large Capacity" magazine is illegal, they may infer that a 15 round magazine is legal to purchase or bring into California. This person may commit a crime and go to jail because they misunderstood something because you used the improper terminology.
    Hey Decoligny,

    Your point is very good. Always follow the PC definitions and case-law usage of words. Just as the OP used correct references to 12031(e) and he used the correct wording in his self-miranda statement, the correct terminology helped to ensure a lawful stop by LEO Freeman.

    Furthermore, the OP's statement to Freeman regarding the serial number check was good also.

    Hello JJ,

    Were you stopped in a "Speed Limit" zone or a "Maximum Speed Zone?" Go to court and ask for the "public works engineer's maximum speed limit warrants" for that stretch of roadway (I hope I used the correct terminology). I can't cite case law or Vehicle Code law, or any other code for this. I was on a County Board that dealt with these issues years ago.

    The upshot is, Speed Limits are not enforceable if you are driving under the "Maximum Speed Limit" as specified by the Engineers who design and maintain the roads. A local LEO confirmed this to me and it was an issue in my present town. It was a very public issue as the City Council changed our "Maximum Speed Limits" to "Speed Limits" by lowering those "Maximum Speed Limits."

    If my recollection is correct, you may get a "reduction in your bail" based on the "Maximum Speed Limit" for the roadway.

    I was stopped on Hwy 395 about 6 weeks ago. I was on cruise control and bumped-up the speed to pass a slow moving vehicle. I forgot to "bump-down" the cruise control and was later surprised to find a LEO on my tail.

    I asked the LEO what is the "Maximum Speed Limit" for roadway. He said the speed limit is 65. I then asked again, "No sir, What is the 'Maximum Speed'" for roadway? He did not give me a ticket. I don't know why he did not give me a ticket as he did not answer the question. He decided to give me a verbal warning instead.

    I apologize for not using citations. I don't know where to look for them. I don't remember the case-law that was cited in the public meetings that I was a part of.

    Good Luck,
    markm

  25. #25
    Regular Member JJ's Avatar
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    Maximum Speed Zones

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkBofRAdvocate View Post
    Hey Decoligny,

    Your point is very good. Always follow the PC definitions and case-law usage of words. Just as the OP used correct references to 12031(e) and he used the correct wording in his self-miranda statement, the correct terminology helped to ensure a lawful stop by LEO Freeman.

    Furthermore, the OP's statement to Freeman regarding the serial number check was good also.

    Hello JJ,

    Were you stopped in a "Speed Limit" zone or a "Maximum Speed Zone?" Go to court and ask for the "public works engineer's maximum speed limit warrants" for that stretch of roadway (I hope I used the correct terminology). I can't cite case law or Vehicle Code law, or any other code for this. I was on a County Board that dealt with these issues years ago.

    The upshot is, Speed Limits are not enforceable if you are driving under the "Maximum Speed Limit" as specified by the Engineers who design and maintain the roads. A local LEO confirmed this to me and it was an issue in my present town. It was a very public issue as the City Council changed our "Maximum Speed Limits" to "Speed Limits" by lowering those "Maximum Speed Limits."

    If my recollection is correct, you may get a "reduction in your bail" based on the "Maximum Speed Limit" for the roadway.

    I was stopped on Hwy 395 about 6 weeks ago. I was on cruise control and bumped-up the speed to pass a slow moving vehicle. I forgot to "bump-down" the cruise control and was later surprised to find a LEO on my tail.

    I asked the LEO what is the "Maximum Speed Limit" for roadway. He said the speed limit is 65. I then asked again, "No sir, What is the 'Maximum Speed'" for roadway? He did not give me a ticket. I don't know why he did not give me a ticket as he did not answer the question. He decided to give me a verbal warning instead.

    I apologize for not using citations. I don't know where to look for them. I don't remember the case-law that was cited in the public meetings that I was a part of.

    Good Luck,
    markm
    Wow, I wish I had this info a couple weeks ago. I paid the ticket last week and did the online traffic school last night.......

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