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Thread: How does new "Health Care Reform" law affect the private sale of your firearms?

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    How does new "Health Care Reform" law affect the private sale of your firearms?

    I just heard about this today on the radio. Apparently in an effort to bolster income tax, the new "Health Care Reform" law (the "gift" that keeps on giving...) has yet another overlooked provision that requires businesses to include purchases of goods in their list of requirements for which they must issue 1099 forms at the end of each year. The new provision applies to individual sellers as well as other businesses.

    As best I can figure, and IANAL, and certainly not a tax lawyer... it appears to me that if you sell a gun valued at $600 or more to a business, you will be getting a 1099 form at the end of that calendar year, and I can only presume you will be responsible for proving that the value was not income, or you may be responsible for paying income tax on the money you got for it!

    This seems like one of the crazier ideas to come along lately, and that's a pretty high bar to cross.

    Here's one of the better articles I found on this, which actually cites sections of the new code:

    http://thefinancebuff.com/2010/05/10...-care-law.html

    This new law is only a short hop, skip and a jump from requiring all private sales of goods to do the same thing... which would be a very sneaky way to regulate private sales of firearms and everything else, for that matter.

    TFred

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    Will the forcing of folks to testify against themselves (disguised as tax collecting) ever end?

    Maybe we need and amendment:

    "No person or corporation shall be forced to disclose any financial information to any federal agency without a warrant, except that retailers may be required to report total retail sales for the sole purpose of calculating sales taxes. Sales tax collecting agencies may require the maintenance of individual sales records for the purpose of auditing, but may only inspect such records during an audit, and may not collect information from those records other than total sales."

    That'd be a nice IRS-killer. It'd be nice if the States would also be so constrained.

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    Because you have no money do to HJR 192 passed in 1933.
    Where we were taken off the gold standard.
    Research Supreme Court Cases. One case says federal reserve notes
    are debt instruments and cannot be income.
    Other cases from the SC personal property is tax and levy exempt.
    Life is tough, its tougher when your stupid.

    http://www.itsnotthelaw.com

    Feds: U.C.C. 1-308, State: U.C.C. 1-207, Both: U.C.C. 1-103.6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Butch00 View Post
    Because you have no money do to HJR 192 passed in 1933.
    Where we were taken off the gold standard.
    Research Supreme Court Cases. One case says federal reserve notes
    are debt instruments and cannot be income.
    Other cases from the SC personal property is tax and levy exempt.
    Are you a lawyer? Is this legal advice?

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Get a gun collectors license (C&R)

    IMHO, the Gun Control Act of 1968 exempts C&R licensees from such requirements as this federal license , in exchange for a license fee and background check approval, permits the buying and selling of firearms, behavior which is explicitly not in trade or in business.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Not a lawyer, not legal advise.
    Research and verify for yourself.
    The Constitution say money is gold and silver.
    The so call federal government which is really a private corporation (U.S. Incorporated in 1871)
    deceives people into believing they can pass all kinds of rules and regulations that you are subject to.
    Sorry operating outside the Constitution voids their authority.
    Read, Marbury v Madison an 1803 case says the Constitution of the United States is the
    supreme Law of the land no Law can go against this Constitution and if it does it is void from
    inception. People have lost sight of the fact "We the people" are the authority in this country.
    Life is tough, its tougher when your stupid.

    http://www.itsnotthelaw.com

    Feds: U.C.C. 1-308, State: U.C.C. 1-207, Both: U.C.C. 1-103.6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Butch00 View Post
    Not a lawyer, not legal advise.
    Research and verify for yourself.
    The Constitution say money is gold and silver.
    The so call federal government which is really a private corporation (U.S. Incorporated in 1871)
    deceives people into believing they can pass all kinds of rules and regulations that you are subject to.
    Sorry operating outside the Constitution voids their authority.
    Read, Marbury v Madison an 1803 case says the Constitution of the United States is the
    supreme Law of the land no Law can go against this Constitution and if it does it is void from
    inception. People have lost sight of the fact "We the people" are the authority in this country.
    It sure sounds like you are giving legal advice. The kind that sends clients to prison.

    No thanks.

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    Research and verify for YOURSELF.
    Life is tough, its tougher when your stupid.

    http://www.itsnotthelaw.com

    Feds: U.C.C. 1-308, State: U.C.C. 1-207, Both: U.C.C. 1-103.6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Butch00 View Post
    Research and verify for YOURSELF.
    Nope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Butch00 View Post
    Keep sucking the government tit then. lol
    Well, keep giving that advice that folks are in jail for following. Me? I'm just going to ignore your future blatherings.

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    Please do...
    Life is tough, its tougher when your stupid.

    http://www.itsnotthelaw.com

    Feds: U.C.C. 1-308, State: U.C.C. 1-207, Both: U.C.C. 1-103.6

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butch00 View Post
    Because you have no money do to HJR 192 passed in 1933.
    Where we were taken off the gold standard.
    Research Supreme Court Cases. One case says federal reserve notes
    are debt instruments and cannot be income.
    Other cases from the SC personal property is tax and levy exempt.

    I'd love to see those citations. Federal Reserve notes are promissory, not debt, instruments, backed by the full faith and credit of the US. Most states tax personal property, chattel, in one way or another.

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    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    he's correct about the gold and silver

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    I'd love to see those citations. Federal Reserve notes are promissory, not debt, instruments, backed by the full faith and credit of the US. Most states tax personal property, chattel, in one way or another.
    All US moneys had to be backed by gold and silver. Think of all the **** going on financially right now, super inflation, debt crises, etc. Yet gold and silver have been insulated. Think of all the bank closures in the great depression and all those people who lost their life savings. money is supposed to be backed with tangibles for a reason.
    Last edited by simmonsjoe; 07-23-2010 at 02:58 PM.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    I'd love to see those citations. Federal Reserve notes are promissory, not debt, instruments, backed by the full faith and credit of the US. Most states tax personal property, chattel, in one way or another.
    Nope, that's not been the case since we went off the gold standard.

    They are NOT backed by the "full faith and credit of the US.". They are backed by the co-signatories of the loans our government takes out with domestic and foreign banks in the forms of Treasury Notes, Bonds, and Bills. It is the "full faith and credit" of these PRIVATE BANKS that makes our currency any good. When the holders of T-Notes start to call in their notes en-mass, (mostly held by FOREIGN, private banks), then there will be nothing behind the dollar. It is only by private institutions buying and holding these notes that they--and therefore the dollar--has any value in the world market. The Federal Reserve Bank is neither "federal", nor do they hold any meaningful "reserves". The entire system is based on speculation, "fractional reserve lending" and the trust that our government will pay back the debt (which is a mathematical impossibility). It's a system built of smoke, dreams, and lies.

    "Federal Reserve Notes" are nothing more than a purchase order, issued by the Treasury for a service. That service is that the Federal Reserve Bank (a Private corporation) issues the Treasury a specific unit of credit, which is a fraction of the face value of that instrument, BUT they charge the Treasury the FULL face value for this service, plus interest for the credit.

    This is why we can NEVER get out from under the debt. The paper is worth less than the amount on it's face from the minute the contract is signed, and therefore it is an inescapable debt. You can't pay back a debt with an instrument that is valued lower than the debt incurred to produce it. Paying back th eFederal debt with Federal Reserve Notes is liek trying to pay back a Mortgage with the principal that the bank gave you. Interest and inflation makes this mathematically impossible.

    The language of finance is VERY precise. A "note" is a debt instrument. That's why our currency says "Federal Reserve Note"

    Back when we were on the gold standard, our currency was a DEMAND certficate. You could take a $20 Gold Certificate or a $1 Silver Certificate to a Federal Reserve Bank, and demand that they exchange it for REAL money--gold or silver coin.

    Try that now. You'll be laughed at, and possibly arrested for "disturbing the peace" or some other such made-up charge.

    The Federal Reserve system is designed to establish a "market gulag economy". Once you're in, you can never get out.

    Of course, all that said, Gunslinger is right on one thing--if you try to "sneak under the fence", the Commissars will hunt you down, and MAKE you pay, one way or another. Under this system, the WORST crime you can commit is to refuse to "play the game". The Gods have spoken--their Golden Calf needs sacrifice...

    Jefferson said:
    "The central bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the Principles and form of our Constitution. I am an Enemy to all banks discounting bills or notes for anything but Coin. If the American People allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the People of all their Property until their Children will wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered. "
    So, children, when are YOU going to wake up?
    Last edited by Dreamer; 07-23-2010 at 03:49 PM.
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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    IMHO, the Gun Control Act of 1968 exempts C&R licensees from such requirements as this federal license , in exchange for a license fee and background check approval, permits the buying and selling of firearms, behavior which is explicitly not in trade or in business.
    C&R license only applies to C&R listed firearms. 4473 still applies to "modern" and/or unlisted firearms. I found that many local FFLs would not recognize my C&R and still make me fill out a 4473 when purchasing a C&R firearm from them. C&R most helps when ordering firearms or parts from out of state wholesalers like AIM surplus, JG Sales, Midway USA, Brownells, etc.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I just heard about this today on the radio. Apparently in an effort to bolster income tax, the new "Health Care Reform" law (the "gift" that keeps on giving...) has yet another overlooked provision that requires businesses to include purchases of goods in their list of requirements for which they must issue 1099 forms at the end of each year. The new provision applies to individual sellers as well as other businesses.

    As best I can figure, and IANAL, and certainly not a tax lawyer... it appears to me that if you sell a gun valued at $600 or more to a business, you will be getting a 1099 form at the end of that calendar year, and I can only presume you will be responsible for proving that the value was not income, or you may be responsible for paying income tax on the money you got for it!

    This seems like one of the crazier ideas to come along lately, and that's a pretty high bar to cross.

    Here's one of the better articles I found on this, which actually cites sections of the new code:

    http://thefinancebuff.com/2010/05/10...-care-law.html

    This new law is only a short hop, skip and a jump from requiring all private sales of goods to do the same thing... which would be a very sneaky way to regulate private sales of firearms and everything else, for that matter.

    TFred
    Where ever you were guided (or misguided rather) to this information, give them a good slap in the back of the head and say "stupid". This rumor has been around for a couple of years now. It IS NOT real, it IS NOT factual, it DOES NOT exist.

    The Fed received over $20 billion dollars in tax revenues from firearm and ammo (and the related) sales in 2009. Wouldn't it be foolish to tax folks on something that they can quickly make disappear? How the heck are they going to know about private sales when there is NO law regulating private sale? (should have been your first clue) Seriously, the article even starts out like it's an "I heard from my sister's boyfriend's uncle's cousin twice removed that this was going to happen" rumor. Find the actual code, until then it DOES NOT exist!

    Folks that keep circulating this stupidity need that firm slap in the head. Heck, I'll sell you some common sense if you (in the generic sense, not anyone specific) like...my fee is just $20 per issue and a firm smack in the back of the head (open handed and your head of course).
    Last edited by heresyourdipstickjimmy; 07-26-2010 at 12:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Butch00 View Post
    Because you have no money do to HJR 192 passed in 1933.
    Where we were taken off the gold standard.
    Research Supreme Court Cases. One case says federal reserve notes
    are debt instruments and cannot be income.
    Other cases from the SC personal property is tax and levy exempt.
    If that were the case it would conflict with the existence of the IRS and the law that allows the Fed to collect...wait for it....wait for it...INCOME TAX. Of course, we all know the Fed doesn't even understand their own laws, nor will they abide by them.

    Back to the OP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heresyourdipstickjimmy View Post
    Where ever you were guided (or misguided rather) to this information, give them a good slap in the back of the head and say "stupid". This rumor has been around for a couple of years now. It IS NOT real, it IS NOT factual, it DOES NOT exist.

    The Fed received over $20 billion dollars in tax revenues from firearm and ammo (and the related) sales in 2009. Wouldn't it be foolish to tax folks on something that they can quickly make disappear? How the heck are they going to know about private sales when there is NO law regulating private sale? (should have been your first clue) Seriously, the article even starts out like it's an "I heard from my sister's boyfriend's uncle's cousin twice removed that this was going to happen" rumor. Find the actual code, until then it DOES NOT exist!

    Folks that keep circulating this stupidity need that firm slap in the head. Heck, I'll sell you some common sense if you (in the generic sense, not anyone specific) like...my fee is just $20 per issue and a firm smack in the back of the head (open handed and your head of course).
    The person making this contention is supporting it with links. The link in the post to which you replied purports to contain actual sections from the US Code. Can you post support for your debunking of this myth? Is the code misquoted? Does it not mean what has been asserted?

  19. #19
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heresyourdipstickjimmy View Post
    This rumor has been around for a couple of years now.
    My post refers to code in the new health care reform law, signed into law on March 23, 2010. Maybe you could explain to me and the rest of us here how it could be a "rumor" that has been around for a couple of years now?

    Maybe you should reconsider who needs that smack in the back of the head.

    TFred

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Nope, that's not been the case since we went off the gold standard.

    They are NOT backed by the "full faith and credit of the US.". They are backed by the co-signatories of the loans our government takes out with domestic and foreign banks in the forms of Treasury Notes, Bonds, and Bills. It is the "full faith and credit" of these PRIVATE BANKS that makes our currency any good. When the holders of T-Notes start to call in their notes en-mass, (mostly held by FOREIGN, private banks), then there will be nothing behind the dollar. It is only by private institutions buying and holding these notes that they--and therefore the dollar--has any value in the world market. The Federal Reserve Bank is neither "federal", nor do they hold any meaningful "reserves". The entire system is based on speculation, "fractional reserve lending" and the trust that our government will pay back the debt (which is a mathematical impossibility). It's a system built of smoke, dreams, and lies.

    "Federal Reserve Notes" are nothing more than a purchase order, issued by the Treasury for a service. That service is that the Federal Reserve Bank (a Private corporation) issues the Treasury a specific unit of credit, which is a fraction of the face value of that instrument, BUT they charge the Treasury the FULL face value for this service, plus interest for the credit.

    This is why we can NEVER get out from under the debt. The paper is worth less than the amount on it's face from the minute the contract is signed, and therefore it is an inescapable debt. You can't pay back a debt with an instrument that is valued lower than the debt incurred to produce it. Paying back th eFederal debt with Federal Reserve Notes is liek trying to pay back a Mortgage with the principal that the bank gave you. Interest and inflation makes this mathematically impossible.

    The language of finance is VERY precise. A "note" is a debt instrument. That's why our currency says "Federal Reserve Note"

    Back when we were on the gold standard, our currency was a DEMAND certficate. You could take a $20 Gold Certificate or a $1 Silver Certificate to a Federal Reserve Bank, and demand that they exchange it for REAL money--gold or silver coin.

    Try that now. You'll be laughed at, and possibly arrested for "disturbing the peace" or some other such made-up charge.

    The Federal Reserve system is designed to establish a "market gulag economy". Once you're in, you can never get out.

    Of course, all that said, Gunslinger is right on one thing--if you try to "sneak under the fence", the Commissars will hunt you down, and MAKE you pay, one way or another. Under this system, the WORST crime you can commit is to refuse to "play the game". The Gods have spoken--their Golden Calf needs sacrifice...

    Jefferson said:


    So, children, when are YOU going to wake up?
    Federal Reserve Notes are promissory in nature. Silver and Gold Certs said the backing was "on deposit" at the Treasury in gold or silver--no question as to their real value; FRN promise nothing beyond the holder's belief that they will remain legal tender of the US. That they are signed by the SecTreas and Treasurer of the US indicates their backing via the full faith and credit of the US or they wouldn't be signed by them. That, in fact, it's other people's money backing them up or other instruments backed by other peoples (creditors of US obligations) money, as you point out, is exactly correct. However, from a legal perspective, the FR Notes are promissory in nature, not backed by specie, and an instrument to simplify transactions since we came off actual precious metal backing our dollars--Silver/Gold Certificates or US Notes. That was the point I was trying to make.

    Good article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Note
    Last edited by Gunslinger; 07-26-2010 at 03:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    The person making this contention is supporting it with links. The link in the post to which you replied purports to contain actual sections from the US Code. Can you post support for your debunking of this myth? Is the code misquoted? Does it not mean what has been asserted?
    It contains sections of some previously proposed US Code...from a bill that was DOA long ago.

    I get sick of repeating myself, but go back to my original post and see what I put there. When someone posts links to another site that starts...my sister's cousin's aunt's grandmother...it's NEVER a reliable source. I'd like to think the members on this board aren't 7 year old children that play the telephone game, but I'm truly starting to wonder.

    Again, this rumor has been around for going on 2+ years. It IS NOT true, it DOES NOT exist. This particular site is giving you partials and not the entire information, which gets it skewed out of context. This was started long ago by ....wait for it.... an ANTI.

    So I'll repeat myself again...produce the ACTUAL code or it DOES NOT exist. A link to a crap site as was in the OP isn't good enough, far from it.

    The IRS cannot tax you on the sale of something that you've paid monies for unless they can prove you've made a profit (income) from the sale. I guess you've been going to H&R Block to have your taxes done all your life. Duh!

    There are parts of this that are the real deal, but the issue with firearms sales will be in limbo (in question) for a bit as the health care bill will conflict with the taxation laws already posed upon firearms. Again, the 1099 is used to report income. You selling the firearm to a business cannot constitute income for you unless the IRS can prove it so. It's going to be tough to say how this is going to apply.

    Look at a pawn shop. If they allow a pawn, that is temporarily income for that individual but when they return to pick up the item they are taking a loss. This could work in OUR benefit folks. If the Democraps and the IRS want to start this kind of fight, then we all start claiming losses on purchased equipment, ammo, supplies, and firearms on our IRS tax forms. That $20 billion they got in 2009 from firearm and related sales will dry up and then some within the first year.

    The health care bill WILL be deemed unconstitutional. It is going to happen, it's just a matter of when. So if you have folks suing the Fed over it ( your AG's office) then get on-board and support defeating such an abuse of power, waste of tax dollars, and outright fraud.

    Oh, I forgot to mention, the title of the OP is how it affects "Private sale". It clearly does not affect private firearm sales. Duh!
    Last edited by heresyourdipstickjimmy; 07-26-2010 at 10:13 PM.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by heresyourdipstickjimmy View Post
    ...I get sick of repeating myself, but go back to my original post and see what I put there. When someone posts links to another site that starts...my sister's cousin's aunt's grandmother...it's NEVER a reliable source...
    One more time. The support was not "my sister's cousin's aunt's grandmother..." The support was a link to an article that quoted the US Code. Either directly refute the US Code or move on. If you cannot do so, I will move on.

    You can refute the quoted US Code very easily in two ways. (1) Demonstrate that the code was quoted incorrectly. Or, (2) show that it says something different than the poster and article say it says.

    If you think it will be ruled unconstitutional, and that is your only refutation, I will note your opinion, recognize the factual correctness of the OP, and move on.

    The OP made a positive assertion and backed it up with the US Code. You have asserted that he is wrong. Logically, the burden is now on you to support your assertion at least as well as the OP did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    One more time. The support was not "my sister's cousin's aunt's grandmother..." The support was a link to an article that quoted the US Code. Either directly refute the US Code or move on. If you cannot do so, I will move on.

    You can refute the quoted US Code very easily in two ways. (1) Demonstrate that the code was quoted incorrectly. Or, (2) show that it says something different than the poster and article say it says.

    If you think it will be ruled unconstitutional, and that is your only refutation, I will note your opinion, recognize the factual correctness of the OP, and move on.

    The OP made a positive assertion and backed it up with the US Code. You have asserted that he is wrong. Logically, the burden is now on you to support your assertion at least as well as the OP did.

    Fail again. Pull your head out of your 5th point of contact please. Any site that quotes US Code and FAILS to provide links to the data as well as accurate contextual information IS NOT reliable. I'll say it again...IS NOT RELIABLE!

    That particular site started off on 3rd or 4th party info. Read it, it's in the 1st paragraph. It cites US Code, but only gives certain excerpts that negate the context of what is addressed in that section. This is exactly what politicians do folks, they use just the portions of an item to their agenda rather than presenting the entire context for review.

    Either way, the OP said how it affects private sale. It does not impact private sale. Duh.

  24. #24
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heresyourdipstickjimmy View Post
    Fail again.

    Either way, the OP said how it affects private sale. It does not impact private sale. Duh.
    Your cred is quickly approaching zero.

    This new law is only a short hop, skip and a jump from requiring all private sales of goods to do the same thing...
    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Maybe we need and amendment:

    "No person or corporation shall be forced to disclose any financial information to any federal agency without a warrant, except that retailers may be required to report total retail sales for the sole purpose of calculating sales taxes. Sales tax collecting agencies may require the maintenance of individual sales records for the purpose of auditing, but may only inspect such records during an audit, and may not collect information from those records other than total sales."
    I've got a better IRS killer.

    "The sixteenth amendment is hereby repealed"
    Last edited by rodbender; 07-26-2010 at 10:39 PM.

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