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Thread: I think the Boy Scouts are telling tales!

  1. #1
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I think the Boy Scouts are telling tales!

    It's that time, the entire Central Virginia area is beginning to swarm with Boy Scouts heading to Fort A.P. Hill for the 2010 Boy Scout Jamboree.

    I was browsing through their web site this afternoon, and came across this line in the "Code of Conduct":

    "14. In accordance with U.S., local, and state laws, adult leaders and youth are prohibited from having firearms and weapons in their possession."

    The Scouts must be under 18 in order to participate, so they are correct that the "youth" are prohibited, unless supervised, etc, etc. The Jamboree is held on a US Army base, so as best I can tell, the only regulations that would actually prohibit the adult leaders from carrying would be the US Army rules governing the base itself!

    The BSA is citing Virginia local (which is a non-starter due to preemption) and state law for their ban.

    I thought Boy Scouts made a big deal about telling the truth. This is rather disappointing.

    TFred

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Dammit... I was going to go to that. I was at the National Jambo at AP Hill as a scout in 1981, and have a TON of great memories. I was planning on going for a day or two this year, because it's the 100th anniversary of the National Jamboree...

    I got my Eagle Scout award about 6 months after I went to National. I've always wanted to go back, as an Eagle...

    I guess I missed the registration deadline, and I don't think they allow at-the-gate reg...

    Dammit...

    I really wanted that patch...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Dammit... I was going to go to that. I was at the National Jambo at AP Hill as a scout in 1981, and have a TON of great memories. I was planning on going for a day or two this year, because it's the 100th anniversary of the National Jamboree...

    I got my Eagle Scout award about 6 months after I went to National. I've always wanted to go back, as an Eagle...

    I guess I missed the registration deadline, and I don't think they allow at-the-gate reg...

    Dammit...

    I really wanted that patch...
    You can go as a visitor, they are expecting many tens of thousands of visitors, especially for the big bash on the 31st, I think.

    I don't know about patches for visitors though. You could probably trade one from somebody.

    TFred

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    If the trading posts are anything like they were when I was there in '81, I should be able to just buy one...

    The only problem is, I can't stop by on my trip to/from MD next week, because I'll be carrying, and I can't take a firearm on base--even if it's FOPA-packed...

    I'll figure something out, I'm sure. Visitors passes are only $10...

    And I think I still have a fully-kitted out Scout shirt with my Eagle patch and 1981 Jambo patch on it that fits!
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    It's that time, the entire Central Virginia area is beginning to swarm with Boy Scouts heading to Fort A.P. Hill for the 2010 Boy Scout Jamboree.

    I was browsing through their web site this afternoon, and came across this line in the "Code of Conduct":

    "14. In accordance with U.S., local, and state laws, adult leaders and youth are prohibited from having firearms and weapons in their possession."
    I'd be surprised if this wasn't boilerplate language used by BSA HQ for any event. For a group with Riflery and Shotgun merit badges, they are rather anti-gun when it comes to their members.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Boilerplate or not... to be honest, as a life-long resident of Virginia, I find it insulting that they would lump us in with the draconian anti-gun states of the whacko liberals.

    I will probably write them a letter once the Jamboree is over. They are beyond saturated at this point.

    TFred

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    Regular Member Mr H's Avatar
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    RedKnightt...

    I think you hit it square, there...

    BSA (I was a longtime leader in both Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts) has a tendency to use blanket language pertaining to general policies, whether it be at the unit level, or all the way up through District, Council, Regional (and apparently National) events.

    While they may sometimes be technically in error, they have a longstanding legal acceptance that, as a private membership organization, they have the right to set the rules for all members and attendees to member functions.

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    Regular Member KaosDad's Avatar
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    As a former BSA leader sometimes I wish they would just shut their yaps. Their web page clearly states BSA policy:

    "Except for law enforcement officers required to carry firearms within their jurisdiction, firearms shall not be brought on camping, hiking, backpacking, or other Scouting activities except those specifically planned for target shooting under the supervision of a currently certified BSA or National Rifle Association firearms instructor."

    It's that simple. They do not need to make up other rules to cover their policy. And the policy is carefully worded to cover anyone coming to an event, not just BSA members.

    Now, quite frankly, I don't blame them. The BSA is one of the most often sued groups in existance. Can you imagine the uproar if a firearm was inappropriatly discharged at a BSA function and a Scout injured? The Anti-Scouting machine would kick into high gear and try to shut the movement down. I had a hard enough time with the freaking God haters, all I would have needed were antis on my back too.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Dreamer -

    PM me and we'll work out something for me to hold your firearms while you go to the Jamboree. Just be sure to bring extra ammo so that I will be able to complete a full test-firing program for you while you are there.

    stay safe.

    PS - same offer is open to anyone passing through the Richmond Va metro area. Yeah, I'm a saint. What can I say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    If the trading posts are anything like they were when I was there in '81, I should be able to just buy one...

    The only problem is, I can't stop by on my trip to/from MD next week, because I'll be carrying, and I can't take a firearm on base--even if it's FOPA-packed...

    I'll figure something out, I'm sure. Visitors passes are only $10...

    And I think I still have a fully-kitted out Scout shirt with my Eagle patch and 1981 Jambo patch on it that fits!

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Dreamer -PM me and we'll work out something for me to hold your firearms while you go to the Jamboree. Just be sure to bring extra ammo so that I will be able to complete a full test-firing program for you while you are there.
    LOL... Thanks for the offer, but I think I've got my travel schedule arranged to cover it...

    Oh, BTW folks, the BSA National Jamboree is being held at Fort A.P. Hill. So REGARDLESS of what the BSA says, it would be illegal to bring a firearm onto the property anyway, being a military base and all...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    ...REGARDLESS of what the BSA says, it would be illegal to bring a firearm onto the property anyway, being a military base and all...
    It's not that simple.

    I've legally had personal fireams on military installations many times.

    Find out the policy of the particular installation to determine your options.

    Edit:

    Fort A P Hill even has their weapon registration form online, for when you bring your firearm onto the Post.

    http://www.aphill.army.mil/sites/new...rationcard.asp

    Of course, I'm not suggesting anyone circumvent the BSA rules... just pointing out that bringing firearms onto Federal property (like military installations) is often okay.
    Last edited by DrMark; 07-24-2010 at 11:30 PM.

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    I've been a scout leader for 5 years now. I also have a CHP. I don't often feel the need to be unarmed.

    I won't advocate someone breaking the rules. It is BSA policy that firearms are not authorized at any Scouting activity. I know many of my fellow scout leaders also have CHP's... I've never seen anyone OCing at a Scouting function. I think OCing would be unwise and distract many boys from their "mission".

    :-X
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Oh, BTW folks, the BSA National Jamboree is being held at Fort A.P. Hill. So REGARDLESS of what the BSA says, it would be illegal to bring a firearm onto the property anyway, being a military base and all...
    I covered this in my original post, and I don't suppose I have a problem with the Boy Scouts making a policy on the matter, although it does put their membership in danger during their sometimes very long travels here to the Jamboree.

    But I do take great exception to them blaming their policy on the laws of the state of Virginia, and especially to them lying about laws of any locality in the state of Virginia, which we all know cannot legally exist, and where ever they might illegally exist, cannot be enforced.

    TFred

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I covered this in my original post, and I don't suppose I have a problem with the Boy Scouts making a policy on the matter, although it does put their membership in danger during their sometimes very long travels here to the Jamboree.

    But I do take great exception to them blaming their policy on the laws of the state of Virginia, and especially to them lying about laws of any locality in the state of Virginia, which we all know cannot legally exist, and where ever they might illegally exist, cannot be enforced.

    TFred
    This seems a bit extreme, TFred. Stating they were imprecise might be more accurate.

    It really isn't neccessary for them to state "... IAW applicable local and state laws...", is it?

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    This seems a bit extreme, TFred. Stating they were imprecise might be more accurate.

    It really isn't neccessary for them to state "... IAW applicable local and state laws...", is it?
    I don't know what the legal definition of "in accordance with" is. All I know is what it means to me.

    "14. In accordance with U.S., local, and state laws, adult leaders and youth are prohibited from having firearms and weapons in their possession."

    This sentence says to me that they have established a rule of conduct, and the reason for this rule is to be "in accord" with US, local, and state laws. However, the state laws are not, and the local laws cannot be the source for requiring this policy.

    To me, to say that they are, is in fact either making a tremendous mistake, or passing the buck intentionally, which I would also call lying.

    Is that a bit extreme? You can decide if it is for you, it is not for me.

    Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of the Boy Scouts. The fact that they would pass the buck here, rather than owning up to their own policy decision is all that much more disappointing.

    I guess what it comes down to is that they have put out this "blanket" policy with a list of reasons that they are hiding behind to authorize the policy. But the reasons are false. It tells me that they don't care what the reasons are, or if they even really exist, they want to implement a policy and they want to avoid taking the responsibility for that decision. I don't think that is something I would want to teach my kids.

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    To me, to say that they are, is in fact either making a tremendous mistake, or passing the buck intentionally, which I would also call lying.

    Is that a bit extreme? You can decide if it is for you, it is not for me.

    Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of the Boy Scouts. The fact that they would pass the buck here, rather than owning up to their own policy decision is all that much more disappointing.

    I guess what it comes down to is that they have put out this "blanket" policy with a list of reasons that they are hiding behind to authorize the policy. But the reasons are false. It tells me that they don't care what the reasons are, or if they even really exist, they want to implement a policy and they want to avoid taking the responsibility for that decision. I don't think that is something I would want to teach my kids.
    "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

    I truly don't think this done out of malice. The BSA steps on enough civil rights, but I don't see this as anything but an over-reliance on lawyers, which qualifies as stupidity, IMO.

  17. #17
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    generally overly cautious

    BSA is being overly cautious since the death of 4 Scout Leaders a few years ago at Fort A.P.Hill. I feel that the issue can and will be address, but to much dismay not in time for this year.

    Perhaps former Scouts and Leaders can address in a very positive tone their opinion in writing and we will see a new policy issued. Of course like any opinion you only get out what you put into it.

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