DanM
Regular Member
During the last July 4th weekend, I visited Mammoth Cave National Park in Kentucky. They are going beyond the definition of "federal facility" in 18 USC 930 to prohibit firearms in the cave. I have opened up an inquiry with that park's management on this issue.
Below is the email trail so far of my inquiry (start at bottom to go chronologically).
I encourage anyone visiting National Park Service parks where firearms are prohibited beyond what the law defines as "federal facility" to open up their own inquiries with that park's management.
-------------------------------
Emails:
-------------------------------
From: [DanM] <danm@xxx.com>
To: Brad_McDougal@nps.gov
Cc: Bruce_Powell@nps.gov; Wayne_Elliott@nps.gov; Pat_Reed@nps.gov
Sent: Wed, July 14, 2010
Subject: Re: Application of 18 USC 930 to Caves
Mr. McDougal,
I would like to follow up my recent email with some items pertinent to your
review of the validity of applying 18 USC 930 to anything other than "a building
or part thereof".
The following is from Santa Monica Mountains National Recreation Area:
http://www.nps.gov/samo/parkmgmt/up...untains National Recreation Area-Firearms.pdf
[START OF CITATION]
Definition of Federal Facilities
Federal law prohibits firearms in appropriately posted federal facilities.
"Federal facilities" are defined in 18 U.S.C. § 930 (g)(1) as:
“The term 'Federal facility' means a building or part thereof owned or leased by
the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the
purpose of performing their official duties.”
Subject to this provision, a federal facility must meet all three of the
following criteria:
1) be a “building or part thereof”. Common definitions of this term are: "[a]
structure with walls and a roof, esp. a permanent structure," (Black's Law
Dictionary, 8th ed., 2004). According to one court, the word "building" does not
include an outside fenced employee parking lot.
2) the building or part thereof is owned or leased by the federal government
3) federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their
official duties; while the statute does not define "regularly" the National Park
Service views this as including the scheduled, daily presence of NPS employees
performing official duties.
Examples of federal facilities are: visitor centers, park administrative office
buildings, park maintenance offices and workshops, backcountry offices, ranger
stations, lifeguard kiosks, fee-collection stations. Structures such as covered
parking garages and covered amphitheaters may qualify as federal facilities.
Examples of nonfederal facilities: Campfire rings open to the sky, with several
benches used for evening interpretive talks and parking lots.
[END OF CITATION]
Please note that Santa Monica Mountains National Recreation Area properly
analyzes the "federal facility" definition to its three criteria (matching what
I've discussed before), cites a legal dictionary definition for "a building or
part thereof", and then gives what it considers examples of federal facilities.
The examples all fit Black's legal definition "[a] structure with walls and a
roof, esp. a permanent structure". They are all structures with walls and a
roof, some temporary and some more permanent.
Caves have "walls" and "roofs", but they and the cave itself as a whole are not
structures. You have to be 1)"a structure" with 2)"walls and a roof" in order
to be a "building or part thereof", not only from the perpective of common
understanding of what a "building" is, but also apparently from the perspective
of at least one authoritative legal definition of "a building or part thereof".
Please incorporate this information into your review and internal discussions,
and I'll be sure to pass on to you further information as I find it.
Respectfully,
[DanM]
Auburn Hills, MI
----- Original Message ----
From: [DanM] <danm@xxx.com>
To: Pat_Reed@nps.gov; Brad_McDougal@nps.gov
Cc: Bruce_Powell@nps.gov; Wayne_Elliott@nps.gov
Sent: Tue, July 13, 2010
Subject: Re: Application of 18 USC 930 to Caves
Mr. Reed,
Thank you very much, sir, for your prompt and detailed reply.
Mr. McDougal,
Mr. Reed invites further questions and requests for additional information to be
addressed to you. I have a need for further information.
18 USC 930 contains the definition for "federal facility" to be used with
respect to its application as "a building or part thereof owned or leased by the
Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the
purpose of performing their official duties." Thus, there are three elements
about a facility to be able to call it a "federal facility" for the purposes of
18 USC 930 and applying that law. The facility must satisfy all of the
following criteria in the definition:
--Be a building or part of a building
--Be owned or leased by the Federal Government
--Have Federal employees regularly present performing official duties
At issue is the part specifying "a building or part thereof" and how Mammoth
Cave is considered "a building or part thereof", thus satisfying all criteria
necessary to being considered a "federal facility" and having 18 USC 930 apply
to it. To this question, Mr. Reed states below, and I summarize, the National
Park Service and the US Solicitor General's Office use the following criteria
for determining that Mammoth cave is a "federal facility":
--Secure and controlled access
--Regular presence of Federal employees performing official duties
--Listed as an asset under FRP; items of property in the cave are tracked in
FMSS
While the second criteria is an element in the definition of "federal facility"
in 18 USC 930, the other two do not appear in that definition. And the issue in
question is only how a cave is legitimately considered "a building or part
thereof". I know what a building or part of a building is, and I am having
trouble understanding how a cave, even with secure/controlled access and asset
listing/tracking, is legitimately or legally defined as a building or part of a
building. Any information you can provide to clear up my confusion on what the
letter of the law says versus what you are applying it to would be very much
appreciated.
Respectfully,
[DanM]
Auburn Hills, MI
----- Original Message ----
From: "Pat_Reed@nps.gov" <Pat_Reed@nps.gov>
To: [DanM] <danm@xxx.com>
Cc: Bruce_Powell@nps.gov; Brad_McDougal@nps.gov; Wayne_Elliott@nps.gov
Sent: Tue, July 13, 2010
Subject: Re: Application of 18 USC 930 to Caves
Dear Mr. M,
Thank you for your recent e-mail regarding the firearms prohibitions that
is currently in place at Mammoth Cave National Park. In regards to your
question of how the cave is classified as a federal facility under 18 USC
930, the National Park Service and the U.S. Solicitor General’s Office
reviewed the following information before determining that the cave fits
the category of a federal facility:
All of the entrances into the cave are secured with steel gates or metal
doors, all of which are secured with specific series of security
locks. Only authorized government employees are allowed to access
the cave, and then only at set pre-determined times. Several cave
entrances have structures constructed at the entrances to protect
persons and resources within the cave and allow only authorized
access.
A large number of Federal employees are stationed within the cave for
all or a significant portion of their work day. The cave is in
effect their “work space” and allowing firearms into this work space
would pose a threat to their safety while on the job.
The cave is listed as an asset under the Federal Real Property standards
and all of the sub-surface assets are tracked under the Facility
Management Software System program to include cave entrance
structures, gates, solid steel doors, and lock mechanisms.
These are but a few of the criteria that were utilized in determining that
the cave falls under the “federal facility” category outlined in 18 USC
930, and therefore firearms would be prohibited in the cave.
If you have any further questions or need additional information, please
feel free to contact our park Law Enforcement Specialist, Brad McDougal at
(270) 758-2121 or at brad_mcdougal@nps.gov.
Sincerely,
Patrick Reed
Superintendent
Mammoth Cave National Park
P.O. Box 7
Mammoth Cave, KY 42259
Phone: (270) 758-2183
Fax: (270) 758-2349
Email: pat_reed@nps.gov
----- Original Message ----
From: [DanM]<danm@xxx.com>
To: pat_reed@nps.gov, bruce_powell@nps.gov
Sent: Tue, July 6, 2010
Subject: Application of 18 USC 930 to Caves
Dear Mr. Reed and Mr. Powell,
During the recent July 4th weekend, I visited Mammoth Cave National Park
and thoroughly enjoyed it! The employees of this park are a credit to all
of those who preserve and protect our country's natural treasures and
resources.
There was a "Firearms Prohibited" sign at the entrance to Mammoth Cave, so
I disarmed myself before entering the cave. This sign cites the law, 18
USC 930. I have subsequently read that law, and it places some
prohibitions of firearms with respect to "Federal facilities".
The law conveniently contains its definition of "Federal facility". In 18
USC 930(g)(1), "Federal facility" is defined as "a building or part thereof
owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are
regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties."
Mammoth Cave is not a building or part thereof. It is a cave with some
man-made structure at its mouth and inside of it, but it is cave
nonetheless and is not a building or part of a building.
I am a law-abiding citizen who lawfully carries firearms for self-defense.
It is important to me to be in compliance with the law, but your sign in
front of a cave which cites a law which applies to "a building or part
thereof" confuses me. It appears to be a mis-application of a plain
reading of 18 USC 930. Would you please share with me how it is that you
apply 18 USC 930 to a cave?
I'm sure I'll be visiting Mammoth Cave National Park again in the future,
and I seek simply to reduce my confusion between what the law says it
applies to and what you are applying it to. Thank you for your anticipated
response and, also, your service in maintaining Mammoth Cave National Park
to such a high standard.
Kind regards,
[DanM]
Auburn Hills, MI
Below is the email trail so far of my inquiry (start at bottom to go chronologically).
I encourage anyone visiting National Park Service parks where firearms are prohibited beyond what the law defines as "federal facility" to open up their own inquiries with that park's management.
-------------------------------
Emails:
-------------------------------
From: [DanM] <danm@xxx.com>
To: Brad_McDougal@nps.gov
Cc: Bruce_Powell@nps.gov; Wayne_Elliott@nps.gov; Pat_Reed@nps.gov
Sent: Wed, July 14, 2010
Subject: Re: Application of 18 USC 930 to Caves
Mr. McDougal,
I would like to follow up my recent email with some items pertinent to your
review of the validity of applying 18 USC 930 to anything other than "a building
or part thereof".
The following is from Santa Monica Mountains National Recreation Area:
http://www.nps.gov/samo/parkmgmt/up...untains National Recreation Area-Firearms.pdf
[START OF CITATION]
Definition of Federal Facilities
Federal law prohibits firearms in appropriately posted federal facilities.
"Federal facilities" are defined in 18 U.S.C. § 930 (g)(1) as:
“The term 'Federal facility' means a building or part thereof owned or leased by
the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the
purpose of performing their official duties.”
Subject to this provision, a federal facility must meet all three of the
following criteria:
1) be a “building or part thereof”. Common definitions of this term are: "[a]
structure with walls and a roof, esp. a permanent structure," (Black's Law
Dictionary, 8th ed., 2004). According to one court, the word "building" does not
include an outside fenced employee parking lot.
2) the building or part thereof is owned or leased by the federal government
3) federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their
official duties; while the statute does not define "regularly" the National Park
Service views this as including the scheduled, daily presence of NPS employees
performing official duties.
Examples of federal facilities are: visitor centers, park administrative office
buildings, park maintenance offices and workshops, backcountry offices, ranger
stations, lifeguard kiosks, fee-collection stations. Structures such as covered
parking garages and covered amphitheaters may qualify as federal facilities.
Examples of nonfederal facilities: Campfire rings open to the sky, with several
benches used for evening interpretive talks and parking lots.
[END OF CITATION]
Please note that Santa Monica Mountains National Recreation Area properly
analyzes the "federal facility" definition to its three criteria (matching what
I've discussed before), cites a legal dictionary definition for "a building or
part thereof", and then gives what it considers examples of federal facilities.
The examples all fit Black's legal definition "[a] structure with walls and a
roof, esp. a permanent structure". They are all structures with walls and a
roof, some temporary and some more permanent.
Caves have "walls" and "roofs", but they and the cave itself as a whole are not
structures. You have to be 1)"a structure" with 2)"walls and a roof" in order
to be a "building or part thereof", not only from the perpective of common
understanding of what a "building" is, but also apparently from the perspective
of at least one authoritative legal definition of "a building or part thereof".
Please incorporate this information into your review and internal discussions,
and I'll be sure to pass on to you further information as I find it.
Respectfully,
[DanM]
Auburn Hills, MI
----- Original Message ----
From: [DanM] <danm@xxx.com>
To: Pat_Reed@nps.gov; Brad_McDougal@nps.gov
Cc: Bruce_Powell@nps.gov; Wayne_Elliott@nps.gov
Sent: Tue, July 13, 2010
Subject: Re: Application of 18 USC 930 to Caves
Mr. Reed,
Thank you very much, sir, for your prompt and detailed reply.
Mr. McDougal,
Mr. Reed invites further questions and requests for additional information to be
addressed to you. I have a need for further information.
18 USC 930 contains the definition for "federal facility" to be used with
respect to its application as "a building or part thereof owned or leased by the
Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the
purpose of performing their official duties." Thus, there are three elements
about a facility to be able to call it a "federal facility" for the purposes of
18 USC 930 and applying that law. The facility must satisfy all of the
following criteria in the definition:
--Be a building or part of a building
--Be owned or leased by the Federal Government
--Have Federal employees regularly present performing official duties
At issue is the part specifying "a building or part thereof" and how Mammoth
Cave is considered "a building or part thereof", thus satisfying all criteria
necessary to being considered a "federal facility" and having 18 USC 930 apply
to it. To this question, Mr. Reed states below, and I summarize, the National
Park Service and the US Solicitor General's Office use the following criteria
for determining that Mammoth cave is a "federal facility":
--Secure and controlled access
--Regular presence of Federal employees performing official duties
--Listed as an asset under FRP; items of property in the cave are tracked in
FMSS
While the second criteria is an element in the definition of "federal facility"
in 18 USC 930, the other two do not appear in that definition. And the issue in
question is only how a cave is legitimately considered "a building or part
thereof". I know what a building or part of a building is, and I am having
trouble understanding how a cave, even with secure/controlled access and asset
listing/tracking, is legitimately or legally defined as a building or part of a
building. Any information you can provide to clear up my confusion on what the
letter of the law says versus what you are applying it to would be very much
appreciated.
Respectfully,
[DanM]
Auburn Hills, MI
----- Original Message ----
From: "Pat_Reed@nps.gov" <Pat_Reed@nps.gov>
To: [DanM] <danm@xxx.com>
Cc: Bruce_Powell@nps.gov; Brad_McDougal@nps.gov; Wayne_Elliott@nps.gov
Sent: Tue, July 13, 2010
Subject: Re: Application of 18 USC 930 to Caves
Dear Mr. M,
Thank you for your recent e-mail regarding the firearms prohibitions that
is currently in place at Mammoth Cave National Park. In regards to your
question of how the cave is classified as a federal facility under 18 USC
930, the National Park Service and the U.S. Solicitor General’s Office
reviewed the following information before determining that the cave fits
the category of a federal facility:
All of the entrances into the cave are secured with steel gates or metal
doors, all of which are secured with specific series of security
locks. Only authorized government employees are allowed to access
the cave, and then only at set pre-determined times. Several cave
entrances have structures constructed at the entrances to protect
persons and resources within the cave and allow only authorized
access.
A large number of Federal employees are stationed within the cave for
all or a significant portion of their work day. The cave is in
effect their “work space” and allowing firearms into this work space
would pose a threat to their safety while on the job.
The cave is listed as an asset under the Federal Real Property standards
and all of the sub-surface assets are tracked under the Facility
Management Software System program to include cave entrance
structures, gates, solid steel doors, and lock mechanisms.
These are but a few of the criteria that were utilized in determining that
the cave falls under the “federal facility” category outlined in 18 USC
930, and therefore firearms would be prohibited in the cave.
If you have any further questions or need additional information, please
feel free to contact our park Law Enforcement Specialist, Brad McDougal at
(270) 758-2121 or at brad_mcdougal@nps.gov.
Sincerely,
Patrick Reed
Superintendent
Mammoth Cave National Park
P.O. Box 7
Mammoth Cave, KY 42259
Phone: (270) 758-2183
Fax: (270) 758-2349
Email: pat_reed@nps.gov
----- Original Message ----
From: [DanM]<danm@xxx.com>
To: pat_reed@nps.gov, bruce_powell@nps.gov
Sent: Tue, July 6, 2010
Subject: Application of 18 USC 930 to Caves
Dear Mr. Reed and Mr. Powell,
During the recent July 4th weekend, I visited Mammoth Cave National Park
and thoroughly enjoyed it! The employees of this park are a credit to all
of those who preserve and protect our country's natural treasures and
resources.
There was a "Firearms Prohibited" sign at the entrance to Mammoth Cave, so
I disarmed myself before entering the cave. This sign cites the law, 18
USC 930. I have subsequently read that law, and it places some
prohibitions of firearms with respect to "Federal facilities".
The law conveniently contains its definition of "Federal facility". In 18
USC 930(g)(1), "Federal facility" is defined as "a building or part thereof
owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are
regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties."
Mammoth Cave is not a building or part thereof. It is a cave with some
man-made structure at its mouth and inside of it, but it is cave
nonetheless and is not a building or part of a building.
I am a law-abiding citizen who lawfully carries firearms for self-defense.
It is important to me to be in compliance with the law, but your sign in
front of a cave which cites a law which applies to "a building or part
thereof" confuses me. It appears to be a mis-application of a plain
reading of 18 USC 930. Would you please share with me how it is that you
apply 18 USC 930 to a cave?
I'm sure I'll be visiting Mammoth Cave National Park again in the future,
and I seek simply to reduce my confusion between what the law says it
applies to and what you are applying it to. Thank you for your anticipated
response and, also, your service in maintaining Mammoth Cave National Park
to such a high standard.
Kind regards,
[DanM]
Auburn Hills, MI