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Thread: Oklahoma break-in turns deadly when 'victim' pulls gun and fires - By Bob Unruh

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    Oklahoma break-in turns deadly when 'victim' pulls gun and fires - By Bob Unruh

    http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=181341

    Woman 2, thugs 0 after home invasion

    Oklahoma break-in turns deadly when 'victim' pulls gun and fires

    Fair Use Exceprt ... Click link above for full story

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    Thumbs down Truth or fiction?

    Several things don't add up about this story. Why would the attackers allow her to crawl across the floor to her purse when one of them had been holding it and could have ransacked it at that time? If I had been that attacker, I would have searched the purse myself, not allowed the owner to do that.

    Her boyfriend didn't hear her scream prior to shots being fired?!? At what point did he become involved? The account isn't clear on that. First it says he became involved when he heard the shots, but then it says that she shot the attacker that had him in a headlock, so he had to be involved prior to shots being fired.

    She was calm?!? After killing one attacker and wounding another?!? She recalls hearing her shots?!? She must be an exceptional woman!! Most people would be nearly hysterical and incoherent after such an experience; they do not remember hearing their gunshots or how many they fired. Must be one hell of a shot if she can shoot with her gun still concealed in her purse and hit her attacker in the middle of his torso. I'm sorry, for me there are too many inconsistencies in this story to beleive this actually happened. It may have or it may not have, all sources notwithstanding. I think that too many times we are too willing to believe this kind of heroism simply because we want to, because it puts gun owners in a positive light. Don't get me wrong, I am a gun owner and I carry and I want gun owners seen in a positive light as much as anyone else. But I also want the truth, and this story simply doesn't ring true to me. JMO.
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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
    Several things don't add up about this story. <snip>
    I agree. I was with her right up until they mentioned her boyfriend being involved.

    Well, best case, some bad guys got what they had coming to them. Worst case, there are a few more bad (guy/girl) that may have gotten away with something.

    I could understand if she was working weird hours and her boyfriend was asleep in the other room, that he may not have woke up until the ruckus was heard. Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction though so I will wait to see if the investigation yields any "missing" pieces of evidence to corraborate or collapse her story. It would be interesting to hear the side of the story from the guy in the hospital to see how different it is from hers.
    Last edited by 45acpForMe; 07-25-2010 at 03:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 45acpForMe View Post
    I agree. I was with her right up until they mentioned her boyfriend being involved.

    Well, best case, some bad guys got what they had coming to them. Worst case, there are a few more bad (guy/girl) that may have gotten away with something.

    I could understand if she was working weird hours and her boyfriend was asleep in the other room, that he may not have woke up until the ruckus was heard. Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction though so I will wait to see if the investigation yields any "missing" pieces of evidence to corraborate or collapse her story. It would be interesting to hear the side of the story from the guy in the hospital to see how different it is from hers.
    Two more things to consider: How did she get from being flat on her back on her couch, about to be raped, to crawling on the floor to get her purse? How many criminals have you heard of doing that?!?

    WHERE was her situational awareness while she was outside her apartment?!? If someone were following me to my door, I think I would nottice! Of course I always look around when I arrive home, no matter what time of day or night. Unless she is deaf, I would think she would have heard them walking behind her. The more I think about this, the more far fetched it seems. Once again, JMO.
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; it's the only thing that ever does.- Margaret Mead


    Those who will not fight for justice today will fight for their lives in the future,

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    I ran across the news video on the Tulsa news station and apparently this really did happen. In that case, whoever wrote up the article did a very poor job of getting their ducks in a row, as far as the sequence of events in this story. Glad the woman and her bf are okay.
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; it's the only thing that ever does.- Margaret Mead


    Those who will not fight for justice today will fight for their lives in the future,

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    Criminals like power and control

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
    Two more things to consider: How did she get from being flat on her back on her couch, about to be raped, to crawling on the floor to get her purse? How many criminals have you heard of doing that?!?

    WHERE was her situational awareness while she was outside her apartment?!? If someone were following me to my door, I think I would nottice! Of course I always look around when I arrive home, no matter what time of day or night. Unless she is deaf, I would think she would have heard them walking behind her. The more I think about this, the more far fetched it seems. Once again, JMO.
    Rape is a form of control, but not one given willingly. It is more enjoyable to them to have you debase yourself in front of them by crawling like a dog to do their bidding by your own choice.
    Last edited by simmonsjoe; 07-25-2010 at 08:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by simmonsjoe View Post
    Rape is a form of control, but not one given willingly. It is more enjoyable to them to have you debase yourself in front of them by crawling like a dog to do their bidding by your own choice.
    I agree. I posted right above you; I found the video from a Tulsa news station. What I was wondering about is once the guy had her on the couch, it surprised me that he let her up and let her go to her purse. I mean, thank God he did and she is okay. What an ordeal! I just think that the written story was poorly done is all. I am for her and her bf and very glad they are okay.
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; it's the only thing that ever does.- Margaret Mead


    Those who will not fight for justice today will fight for their lives in the future,

    Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. Benjamin Franklin

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    Let's not forget the ever so slight possiblity that the newspaper might have gotten a few things incorrect...

    I had a paper say I lived in a town 2 1/2 hour drive from me and I was watching them write everything down that I said (Including my name and hometown)

    Just saying...

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    I don't see anything unusual about the story. Skeptics are assuming the criminals are intelligent. A lot of crooks do stupid things. Criminals also use their own inflated egos to boost their confidence that they have full control over their victims. Plus, they can be under the influence of drugs and alcohol as well impairing their judgment. At the same time a lot of victims can be pretty stupid as well. Just because the boyfriend wasn't tactical like we are doesn't mean the story didn't happen.

    A least she got the bad guys. I was hoping for a better job though. I think that if an attacker was about to rape my girlfriend, I'd shoot him and then watch him stagger back out the front door. Then I'd drag him back in, shoot him again, and then put a pillow over his face to make sure he's dead. Then later take a trip to the cemetary and put a few rounds in his headstone. Maybe even dig up the casket and put some rounds in that. Well you get the point.

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    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=protector84;1315947]A least she got the bad guys. I was hoping for a better job though. I think that if an attacker was about to rape my girlfriend, I'd shoot him and then watch him stagger back out the front door. Then I'd drag him back in, shoot him again, and then put a pillow over his face to make sure he's dead. QUOTE]

    And you would most certainly be arrested for First Degree Murder...you better hope you never have to shoot someone after posting this on the internet.

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    Well the quotes from NRA, that everyone should conceal and need a permit definitely lends credibility, they should be advocating carry period however you like as often as possible. Also the training angle stood out to me as typical NRA. But the lack of the DOA momma telling the press about her on the way to college good boy being shot
    down for no good reason just screams fake.

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    My theory if someone breaks into my house is to use a triple tap. First shot will be to stop him in his tracks. Second shot will be to make sure he is dead. The third shot will be to make double sure he's dead. The logic is simple. When the police arrive you only want one side of the story being presented: yours. A dead man can't sue either. If the burglar doesn't die, he will have time to do two things: 1) make up a story (such as he had the wrong apartment or that you invited him in, etc.) and 2) get an attorney who can do a better job of it than him. If someone busts through my front door or window, they are leaving my property one way: in a body bag.

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    My biggest issue with the story is this, "He said the surviving attacker probably will face a murder charge under a state law allowing that charge when a person embarks on a felony and someone dies. "

    What is this probably crap, he committed a crime so charged the ghetto scum bag, how hard is that. Another huge reason to be accurate with your shots so they do not survive and get off with a slap on the wrist like so many do into today's so called justice system. Personally i think if you commit a single violent felony's you automatically go to death row, non of these life sentencing BS. Start killing these POS instead of giving them life sentences. If their crime is that bad to lock them up for life, just kill them and quite wasting my tax dollars feeding and bedding this ass clowns for the rest of their lives. If they don't want to be put on death row the family has to pay the complete cost to house and feed them.
    Last edited by zack991; 07-27-2010 at 12:59 PM.

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    That is why if someone breaks into your house, you don't just want to stop them. You want to make sure they're dead. No trial, less tax dollars, one less delinquent on the streets. If someone breaks into my house, I'm going to call 911 and tell them to forget the ambulance, just bring the hurse.

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    I hope none of you are ever involved in a self defense shooting, the words you have posted here will come back to haunt you at the worst possible time. We are all gun owners(most anyway) and shooters and we know in our minds what we will do (or hope we will do) in a lethal situation; no need to let the rest of the world know via the internet. I always say that in that kind of situation I will defend myself, I don't detail how. Every situation is different and may call for a different response. I think there is some ego involved here, bragging about what one will do to an intruder. You are preaching to the choir, we've all heard it before, many times. EVERYTHING you post on the internet CAN and WILL be subpeoned by a court of law if you are ever involved in a shooting. Think about it.
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; it's the only thing that ever does.- Margaret Mead


    Those who will not fight for justice today will fight for their lives in the future,

    Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. Benjamin Franklin

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    [QUOTE=ODA 226;1316014]
    Quote Originally Posted by protector84 View Post
    A least she got the bad guys. I was hoping for a better job though. I think that if an attacker was about to rape my girlfriend, I'd shoot him and then watch him stagger back out the front door. Then I'd drag him back in, shoot him again, and then put a pillow over his face to make sure he's dead. QUOTE]

    And you would most certainly be arrested for First Degree Murder...you better hope you never have to shoot someone after posting this on the internet.
    I agree, you better not ever have to shoot someone. You show an appalling lack of knowledge about the law and forensics, as well as ethics. Do you honestly think that forensics wouldn't be able to tell that the crime scene has been tampered with?!? You would then be able to add that charge to the murder charge and you will have convicted yourself because no one is going to believe a word that comes out of your mouth if you tampered with the crime scene. Learn the law and observe it or quit carrying!
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; it's the only thing that ever does.- Margaret Mead


    Those who will not fight for justice today will fight for their lives in the future,

    Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. Benjamin Franklin

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    I'll shoot to stop the threat. Then I'm going to clear the house to make sure there are no other threats. At that point I'll have my wife or neighbor (if the wife isn't home) call 911 while I check the first threat. I'm an EMT so I'll perform CPR and first aid on the threat. But I'm a good shot, and by the time I finish clearing the house to make sure I'm safe, exsanguination will make any of my efforts pretty damn pointless. But I'll try, and it'll look good in court. My .02.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SargentMac View Post
    I'll shoot to stop the threat. Then I'm going to clear the house to make sure there are no other threats. At that point I'll have my wife or neighbor (if the wife isn't home) call 911 while I check the first threat. I'm an EMT so I'll perform CPR and first aid on the threat. But I'm a good shot, and by the time I finish clearing the house to make sure I'm safe, exsanguination will make any of my efforts pretty damn pointless. But I'll try, and it'll look good in court. My .02.
    Perfect. You are mitigating the threat, period. If death results from using a firearem followed by meticulous inspection for any remaining threat, that is merely a consequence of the BG being a BG.
    Last edited by eye95; 07-28-2010 at 04:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by protector84 View Post
    SNIP I think that if an attacker was about to rape my girlfriend, I'd shoot him and then watch him stagger back out the front door. Then I'd drag him back in, shoot him again, and then put a pillow over his face to make sure he's dead. Then later take a trip to the cemetary and put a few rounds in his headstone. Maybe even dig up the casket and put some rounds in that. Well you get the point.
    Quote Originally Posted by protector84 View Post
    SNIP My theory if someone breaks into my house is to use a triple tap. First shot will be to stop him in his tracks. Second shot will be to make sure he is dead. The third shot will be to make double sure he's dead. The logic is simple. When the police arrive you only want one side of the story being presented: yours. A dead man can't sue either. If the burglar doesn't die, he will have time to do two things: 1) make up a story (such as he had the wrong apartment or that you invited him in, etc.) and 2) get an attorney who can do a better job of it than him. If someone busts through my front door or window, they are leaving my property one way: in a body bag.
    Since Protector84 seems adamant about breaking the law despite cautions, my post here is solely to repudiate him for any readers who aren't sure whether Protector has good ideas.

    I know of no law that allows a citizen to kill a serious threat after the threat is stopped. If the first shot staggers him back outside, and he is not dead, I know of no law that allows dragging him inside and shooting him again. I have never read any self-defense court opinions or statutes that permit "ensuring the assailant is dead" with a pillow or otherwise.



    Also, I know of no self-defense law that authorizes homicide to prevent:
    • a lawsuit from the assailant
    • an assailant from testifying against you
    • the assailant getting a good lawyer.
    In fact, even on top of the murder, those last two sound like killing a witness and deprivation of his 6th Amendment right to counsel.

    Regarding posting "big talk" on the internet, a quote from a respected authority on armed self-defense and the law:

    I’m in my 34th year as a sworn police officer, my 19th as a certified “police prosecutor,” and I know for a fact that we DO have the technology to pull things out of your hard drive that you thought were deleted. We DO have the right to ask you, under penalty of perjury, whether you post on any Internet forum, and under what name, and we DO have the power to subpoena any posts via your IP from the Internet hosts, who under law have no choice but to “give you up.” Don’t let the seeming anonymity of the Internet delude you: when things get serious, you won’t be anonymous anymore. --Massad Ayoob. Next to last paragraph at http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob105.html
    Last edited by Citizen; 07-28-2010 at 05:52 PM.

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    I am familiar with the tools used by various DoD agencies, as well as those utilized by Law Enforcement to retrieve data from electronic storage devices. Namely, Hard drives.

    While scary talk about how "awesome" their tech department is can certainly be threatening, it is often nothing more than stupidity on the end-users part that resulted in the recollection of data from personal storage mediums. It's actually quite comical how often this threat is used, and by comparison, how effective (or the lack of) it is in reality as compared to the projection.

    An industrial or high powered speaker magnet will typically solve the majority of any data retrieval concerns, at least where magnetic medium is the topic of conversation.

    One can subpoena to their hearts content, but there are varying policies on log retention depending on where you go. I have also never seen a law that mandates a specific log retention period for service providers. SO again, feel free to subpoena. Have fun with that.

    Daily, operations take place over the wire that are patently against the law, and in clear view of the authorities, but realistically ,and think hard now, when was the last time you saw somebody getting arrested/prosecuted for "phishing", "cracking", or "hacking"?

    Yup. Been awhile.

    Now, how often do you think it happens?

    Yup. Every day.

    I respect the heck out of Mr. Ayoob, but the majority of the statement I believe he made simply to "cover all bases".

    In regards to the shooting, all I have to say is that it makes me happy to hear a law abiding American stood up against criminals. I am even happier that incidents like this prove that equality comes from being able to defend ones self despite being outnumbered, and physically disadvantaged.

    Of course nobody ever wants these things to happen, but in this case; Good for her!

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    I think some people are a bit paranoid here. I don't see how the government would have time to read all of these posts unless something particularly stood out. Second, I and most of us don't post under our real names. So if I'm involved in a self-defense shooting that is pretty obvious (i.e. the front door is torn out and the attacker is dead with a weapon in his hands), there is a chance I would even be released on the scene and not charged at all. Even if I was charged, something that was said on some internet board months or even years prior would be considered hearsay. Unless you are making a direct threat of death against someone, it is just meaningless talk that will not hold water in court.

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    IANAL, but isn't a statement against interests an exception to hearsay? Even worse, hearsay is when person A relates what person B said. Anything person B types onto a message board would not be being related by a second person. There would be a physical audit trail, traceable to person B.

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    Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by protector84 View Post
    I don't see anything unusual about the story. Skeptics are assuming the criminals are intelligent. A lot of crooks do stupid things. Criminals also use their own inflated egos to boost their confidence that they have full control over their victims. Plus, they can be under the influence of drugs and alcohol as well impairing their judgment. At the same time a lot of victims can be pretty stupid as well. Just because the boyfriend wasn't tactical like we are doesn't mean the story didn't happen.

    A least she got the bad guys. I was hoping for a better job though. I think that if an attacker was about to rape my girlfriend, I'd shoot him and then watch him stagger back out the front door. Then I'd drag him back in, shoot him again, and then put a pillow over his face to make sure he's dead. Then later take a trip to the cemetary and put a few rounds in his headstone. Maybe even dig up the casket and put some rounds in that. Well you get the point.
    You best sell your guns. mess with a crime scene and the forensic evidence and i would bet you would be up for MURDER you best give them up or get some formal training good luck on those thoughts

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    Like I said, if someone breaks into my house they are only leaving one way: in a body bag.

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    As for the original post, I agree that some of the story doesn't quite mesh up, but I think that is the fault of the journalist who didn't paint a very clear picture. I'm glad the lady is OK, and she was able to defend herself.

    As for the argument about when to stop shooting, dragging people back inside the house, etc. I don't see any reason to drag someone back into the house. If someone breaks in and I shoot them likely it will be with a double barrel 12 ga, and I really don't see a whole lot of chance for survival on the part of the bad guy. If for some reason I gotta grab my pistol, I'm shooting until the creep stops moving. Center mass and head shots. I'm not intersted in shoulders, legs, knees, or toes. I'm going for vitals. If I shoot an intruder and he manages to stumble out the front door- fine. He can go bleed to death or seek medical attention, I really don't care. I'm not a judge nor jury, or a cop. What happens to the intruder, or just about anyone else outside the walls that I call my home is of very little concern to me, but once they cross that threshold they are in my world, and that isn't where they want to be. I'll be right inside the doorway protecting me and mine.

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