Fail. This actually happened to me, was borrowing my friends computer, didnt see he was still logged in.
What i least expected to happen in Arizona, happened.
Its a bit of a read, if something isnt clear, feel free to ask, ill try to clear it up as best i can.
I was OC at check in, and around the hotel for most of the day. Walked down to the front desk at night to get a blanket for the room. 2 security guards seemed to be shooting the **** with each other and the lady at the desk, who was on the phone. They saw me, and kindly informed me that the bars in the hotel are posted, which is fine by me. Started talking guns, one of them said he would be carrying if he could, but had to leave it in his truck. My age came up at some point and they insisted i was not legally allowed to posses a handgun in AZ. I explained that its 18 to OC and own, just cant buy from FFL. They were still skeptical, and said that thats not what they were told in their law enforcement class. I encouraged them to look into it, and that i was sure it was 18, had been carrying all over AZ with no issues. They told me the blanket would be right up.
About 30 minutes later, there was a knock on the door, expecting the blanket i open it, and 2 different older security guards are standing there. They tell me they were informed there is a firearm in the room and they need to see it. I said i wasnt going to let them into the room, the one who seemed to be a manager or sorts had his foot in the door and started saying that he can come in since it is their property, dont need a warrant, and they all allowed to do health and wellness checks. Even after saying that he will come in, he didnt walk through the door. When i asked if i had to show it to them (i know im not required to) they said yes since its private property, i have to show them the firearm. I walked into the next room (my shirt had slipped over it while watching tv. Concealed...yeah, i was in my hotel room, not really a big deal, wasnt planning on going anywhere without ensuring its uncovered) Pulled my holster off, unloaded, and stuck it back into the holster with slide locked back. I walked back to where they could see me from the door, holding the holster by one of the straps near my crotch. They wanted me to hand it to them.
Yeah....right....do you want my car keys too?
I flat out said no, and then the arguments really started. I asked if i could set the gun down, bald guy said yeah, right there pointing at the ground next to the door. I said im putting it on the counter, and placed it on the kitchen counter.
Now the supervisor started saying that they want me to put it in a lock box, to which i explained i dont feel comfortable with that, and i carry everywhere i go. They started asking why, and saying its pointless. Here is where the order of what was said got jumbled up in my mind, so im just going to cover the key points, in whichever order i remember them, not chronologically.
They said that i would get arrested for carrying under 21. Asked me if i had been ID'ed by the police for the gun yet. I was scaring the customers and employees. If i was 21, they wouldn't have a problem with me OC around the hotel (except the bars) if it were unloaded. That im illegally in possession of a handgun. The shops in town wont sell to anyone under 21. Kept asking me if i wanted them to call PD to get everything settled. Also kept saying that since its private property they make the rules. Threated PD a couple more times, and that they could kick me out with no refund.
I was responding during this between the two of them interrupting me a couple times., trying to explain how FFL is different from private party sales, and the law is 18. And that ive been around cops in AZ with no issues. I ignored their threats to call police, and said im not arguing the private property deal, and that i understand that.
They finally tried to tell me to just leave it in my room unloaded, and i said i need to get it out of the hotel whenever i leave, since i carry everywhere, and will not stop. They started saying that any drunk out there could snatch it. I tried to explain my retention holster and retention training, just like the police use, who are around drunks all the time, and the bald guy snapped saying im not a cop, and that he has "Police experience" (I saw at least 2 tattoos. One covering most of his right forearm, and another large one on the other arm.) I have a feeling his police experience was the Law enforcement class all the employees had to take, where they got the 21 only info.
He also mentioned that they have had guns used in the hotel before, to which i replied is an excellent reason to have it with me for personal protection, they both started saying how thats not allowed, and how they control all guns in the hotel, and the previous gun incident is the reason for them to control all guns, and not carry themselves. How they found the logic to say that a previous gun incident is a reason from them to not carry is beyond me. I said that probably half of the rooms had a guest with a CCW, they said they dont care, and that im under 21. The bald guy then said that somebody could come into my room, tie me up, and use the gun against other people.
Again, i said that the exterior doors are not locked, the stairwells at each wing are open, anybody could just walk in, thats not very controlled, and asked if they can guarantee my safety. They responded by saying they control everything, and ignored the safety comment. Also, bald guy started saying that he doesnt know whats going to happen if i get high or drunk and start shooting off the gun, etc.
Finally, it came down to them telling me to carry it out to the vehicle in a plastic bag whenever i leave. I said i cannot as that would be concealing, and the bald guy with police experience tried telling me its not since it is not on my person. I tried to explain that if the bag/briefcase/backpack in on me/in my hand, its the same thing, and that they were trying to tell me to break the law, etc. He asked me if i had ever peed on a wall or tree in public, i said no, he said he highly doubted that, and that i would be fine carrying in the bag to the car. Also asked if i had a case for it to carry in, again, i said no, im on vacation between two states where OC is legal, no need for one, they told me i should have one.
I said i wouldn't do it, and that i could keep my arm over it, and have a friend on my right side between the side door and the car, they said they dont know my friend...again, how is that relevant? The final decision was kind of hazy, they said to keep it unloaded in my room, and not to carry it on their property.
Towards the end of the conversation i was asking them if they would look up the laws so that they were properly informed, and got a flat out NO. I tried asking a couple times, and the manager just said it didnt matter, and he didnt care, and that the age was 21, and if i was 21, i could carry unloaded.
Now, here is the deal, it seems that they own most of the shops next to the bridge, as well as a large chunk of the walkway next to the water. I have not run into the guys again, but im not exactly sure what would happen if im on their property, or in one of the shops the lease out, and they try to tell me to leave. I have a feeling that even though they ended the encounter at night by telling me that they arent trying to give me a hard time or come down on me, that if they saw me on their sidewalk, they would.
The other issue is, i am here with with a friend and his family. Its not my hotel room, i have no ride back to town other then them. Obviously i cannot leave, or switch hotels.
Normally, i wouldnt have had an issue with PD, since i know im not breaking the law, but i dont need them to try to trespass me after PD shows up.
Seems like they would be ok with it if i was 21, so the only reason they arent, is because they think im breaking the law, even though they tried to tell me to conceal.
Pretty sure they cant come into the room unless it actually is a health and wellness check or emergency, looking for a gun doesnt fall under those, is that correct?
Im just trying to think of what else i could do, i dont want to run into issues, even though im going straight from a back stair case to the car, or onto the public walk way everybody walks on, even though it is their property.
Thanks guys. In better news, talked guns with a Chevron clerk, he has a 1911, and a female clerk from one of the store the hotel leases out. She was all for it, informed of the laws, just asked what kind of gun it was.
Fail. This actually happened to me, was borrowing my friends computer, didnt see he was still logged in.
Well brother, I gotta tell you I've been through the same experience. Well similar but not same. Unfortunately a health and wellness does cover a weapon. However, you do not have to follow their crazy suggestions. Be cautious and don't start trouble, but still exercise your 2A right. I do believe that the state laws are of higher importance than a bunch of super-troopers.
If they were threatening to call the PD, let them do it. You are legal. Arizona LEO's are well versed in OC laws. Well. Versed. It may be private property, but there are no signs, I assume, at the front entrance stating that no weapons are allowed.
You're in the clear my man.
It's only after you've lost everything that you're free to do anything
Call the cops and explain to them the situation get them 2 fired! and you might even get a discount for all the trouble haha
Why did you put up with it?
Talk to the manager on the way out open carrying - then refute credit card charge if they charge you
That is a real shame. I believe that the property laws with regards to hotels are somewhat similar to the ones regarding apartments but it is worth a check. In any case, I would not have let them in. I would explain I paid for this hotel room, you are not coming in here. Got a problem with it, then call the police. Sticking their foot in the door to prevent you from closing it is an attempted break-in to me. If they forced it open and physically tried to get my firearm away from me, I'd shoot them. Since it is private property, they can ask you to leave but they can't forcefully take your property. They can stand outside of the door while you pack up and leave. However, you aren't required to pay for services not rendered. Any hotel that would treat me like that would be a place that would not get a dime. I'd do a charge-back dispute on the credit card.
I don't argue my rights with people. If a business wants me to leave, I'll leave but I won't pay for services not rendered. This is true with restaurants. I don't care if I've eaten the entire meal. You aren't just paying for the food but the service and the space at a table. Should they tell me to get out now because suddenly they have an issue with my gun or something else stupid, that's fine. I'm walking out on the tab. Sadly some business owners and managers feel they have rights they don't. They think they can make you pay for services not provided or products not purchased and otherwise control your rights. Once you are on their property, their sole option is to ask you to leave. They can't force you to surrender personal property, they can't physically prevent you from leaving (such as a store accusing you of stealing), etc. Their option is to call actual law enforcement.
You should have let them call the police and made them look like idiots. Like many others stated, I would have left and made sure that they did not charge me a penny.
Jesus man...I would have ended the discussion right there and not even entertained their fallacious crap. Tell them to Google the freakin' ARS (Title 33 is property if I'm not mistaken) and if they still have a problem they have two options: refund you your money and you'll go stay somewhere that wants your dollars, or **** and abide by the laws. Honestly I probably would have just asked for a refund and left anyway...I don't much suffer fools.
Is the hotel in question possibly on the California side of the river???
If so you may have dodged a big bullet.
If you woke up breathing, congratulations! You get another chance.
It worked out because nothing in the end happened. But in the future don't let the other party try to control so much when you know you are right. Under maybe a rare circumstance don't give up your weapon to a non LEO. You should have first politely started repeating that you are legal and they are harrassing you and for them to leave. Eventually insist because they completed a health check and then if need be let the police educate them. Don't let the conversation continue especially when they aren't listening, learning, or understanding.
Best to you on your next trip.
They did not enter the room. I didnt hand them the firearm, just showed it to them. Also, hotel is on the Arizona side.
And the biggest thing that prevented me from saying or doing half the things i would have was that i am with a friend and his family on vacation. I was invited along, its not my room, its not my vacation or plans. Not my CC, and i have no vehicle.
The other thing is my friends mom doesnt really like OC. She thinks its stupid.
His dad is for it, and while usually CCs ive seen him OC a few times.
I was worried about telling them to call the police because i didnt want them to call with the intention of arresting me for "illegal underage OC" and them once they were shown how stupid they were being, decided to trespass me with the police there.
Once the family checks out, i will probably call the manager. If i have a chance, ill go try to speak to them.
Ive still been OCing all over Havasu. Saw another gentleman carrying at Walmart.
Last edited by paintsnow; 07-27-2010 at 09:58 PM.
Just to get it straight, to reiterate, can you post the full name of the hotel (is it just London Bridge Hotel) along with an address? I want to make sure I never stay there.
First point - you really made those security goons' nights. They'll go out for some beers and talk about it and while they're doing it they'll feel almost...almost...like cops. Because their job is dangerous what with confronting the armed and dangerous and all. Pushy security guards, I think, all really secretly want to be cops.
Second point - I recently took a trip through 8 states concealing. Before the trip, this made me come to grips with a few things:
(1) A bigger threat to our liberty than restrictive gun laws are patchwork gun laws, confusing gun laws, contradictory gun laws, and unknown/misunderstood gun laws. You can dedicate all of your energy to staying within the law and either break one by mistake, or be arrested for breaking a misunderstood law, or because the law is unknown to law enforcement. More like a Kafka novel than the United States of America. One of the most educational things on this forum is that every time I log on, someone has a story of someone getting shirty with a gun owner on the basis of misunderstanding the gun laws. Yours is another. I would like to see everything normalized at 18 years old. I've had it with this crap about 18 and 21 year olds in this country. I'm far beyond that age now, but between alcohol restrictions and everything else, the fact remains - and I made this argument then and I'll make it now - if you're old enough to take a bullet in this country's military, you're old enough to be a citizen with full rights. That means having a beer or getting a CCW permit, should you choose to do so. Given all of what the antis would call "loopholes" in this - most of which you covered, what's the point, even from an anti POV. I would like to see this ironed out legislatively in the future.
(2) Go to the NRA site and print out the gun laws for any state you might carry in. Rather than argue about the law, have it with you and make them stammer stupidly when you confront them with the cold hard text of the law. When I did this trip, that's what I did. States all have these bizarre details that differ. In Louisiana, for example, you have to inform pretty much any cop that approaches you that you are concealing a weapon. Gun laws change constantly, and there are some states without pre-emption leading to an odious patchwork of laws which vary from town to town but having something with you for them to read may just be enough.
(3) People who are not interested in guns are often completely irrational about those who are. Costco comes to mind. I was just at the La Encantada shopping center in the Tucson foothills (a place I despise, incidentally, but AJs has all the good imported cheese in town). They have a sign as you pull into the damned parking lot now which says NO FIREARMS ON PREMISES. That's the entire shopping center! I was so irritated by this, I basically will just refuse ever to go there again. The sign is fairly new; I've CC'd there before without incident.
(4) Private property is an interesting thing. Some say private property is some kind of sacrosanct thing, where a private property owner can make any rules he wants, but I have to wonder if this has limits and where they are. Can a private property owner post a trespassing sign that says "Anyone passing this point shall be subject to forcible sex with the proprietor." Someone trespasses. Is the condition set by the landowner enforceable?
Or imagine a scenario where you're on someone's land and they say, "We are animal rights advocates and you may not defend yourselves against wild animals while here, using any force at all." Their dog attacks you. You begin to fight back. The landowner points a gun at your head saying, you read the sign and agreed to the terms.
Are all property rights created equal? Is the right to life the same as not having your pen stolen? If indeed you possess the right to life, and that trumps everything, does the right to defend that life, and the means to do it, travel with you?
Consider this scenario: an illiterate person can't read the no trespassing sign, or a blind person can't read it, and stumbles across your property boundary. He is standing at the far side of your yard, on your grass. Can you shoot?
What I'm getting at with this extreme example is, are property rights absolute? If there are exceptions, is it unreasonable to assume that the right to defend one's life - a fairly basic thing - is inalienable?
That's not going to be decided here. For now, all we can do is make note of this business and refuse to patronize it.
On my land, or in my house, any peaceable individual is permitted to carry opened or concealed for the purpose of self defense. And I would personally choose to have nothing to do with those who would deny me that right. The technical question I asked above about enforceability of such a restriction on private property is almost beside the point. People who have a problem with individuals possessing the means to defend their lives are not friends of freedom, no matter who they vote for or what policies they support.
Last edited by crisisweasel; 08-03-2010 at 03:27 AM.
London Bridge Resort
1477 Queens Bay Lake Havasu City, Arizona 86403
You would probably have no issues OCing there, they told me that if i was 21 and not breaking the law they would be fine with it. Ironically they told me to break the law and conceal while going to the vehicle or off their property, and then load and holster. Yeah, pulling a gun out of a bag, and loading it on a public sidewalk, fantastic idea...
Both Tucson Best Buy stores sell Apple products and have NO PROBLEM with me OC a handgun inside the store.
Last December I decided to purchase a new 15" wide screen Mac Book Pro - $2300. I went into BB to make said purchase and informed store manager of my intended purchase and asked him if he would slightly adjust price to reflect the 2% difference in sales tax between Pima County tax where Apple store is located and Tucson sales tax -- about $48. He agreed and I gave him my credit card.
I later fired off an email to the Apple store describing my purchase but never received a response.
About two years ago I bought a $2000 Sony computer for my daughter from BB.
Over four grand in electronics from Best Buy because of their gun acceptance policy.
You may now legally carry concealed, unless otherwise prohibited, without a permit.
There are several places you may not, but they've been thoroughly covered in this forum already.
You can still get your permit for travel to other states, but in AZ, it's not required.
@GW, yeah, the retailers don't realize what they're losing by being anti self defense! Way to go!
p.s. Thanks Fred!
Last edited by March Hare; 08-04-2010 at 05:45 PM. Reason: Punctuation for clarification.