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Thread: Suspects have long criminal records..

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    Suspects have long criminal records..

    'The Suspects have long criminal records'

    It is because of people like Pena and Williams, Mathews and Wilbanks, and Tacomaís Olujimi Blankney that anti-gun politicians in state legislatures and in Congress have built careers going after the gun rights of honest citizens, claiming that their schemes would make it harder for such thugs to get guns. It's nonsense, of course, and all of these people are living proof.

    http://www.examiner.com/x-4525-Seatt...iminal-records

    Or try this:

    http://tinyurl.com/29gjej3

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Workman View Post
    'The Suspects have long criminal records'

    It is because of people like Pena and Williams, Mathews and Wilbanks, and Tacomaís Olujimi Blankney that anti-gun politicians in state legislatures and in Congress have built careers going after the gun rights of honest citizens, claiming that their schemes would make it harder for such thugs to get guns. It's nonsense, of course, and all of these people are living proof.
    ""While this column recently questioned why some people with past felony convictions lose their gun rights forever, it is also legitimate to question why violent repeat offenders donít lose their freedom forever. People like Williams, Pena and Blankney should not be on the street. Why must it take an outrageous crime to clarify that for some people? ""

    It is my opinion that far too many people "drank the liberal Kool-Aid" and feel that "we have too many people in prison" and "everyone deserves a second chance".

    Just when does the second chance start in these people's minds? After 3,4,6, or more "first chances"?
    I like Sheriff Arpaio's approach. He says "you send 'em and I'll Jail 'em. Nowhere in the law does it say I have to keep them in luxury" thus his "tent city", bologna sandwiches, and pink underwear for those that don't behave.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    The problem with having a blanket ban on felons owning firearms is that not all felons are violent criminals. I believe that non-violent felons should be allowed to purchase and own firearms; that is, after they have paid their dept to society.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    ""While this column recently questioned why some people with past felony convictions lose their gun rights forever, it is also legitimate to question why violent repeat offenders donít lose their freedom forever. People like Williams, Pena and Blankney should not be on the street. Why must it take an outrageous crime to clarify that for some people? ""

    It is my opinion that far too many people "drank the liberal Kool-Aid" and feel that "we have too many people in prison" and "everyone deserves a second chance".

    Just when does the second chance start in these people's minds? After 3,4,6, or more "first chances"?
    I like Sheriff Arpaio's approach. He says "you send 'em and I'll Jail 'em. Nowhere in the law does it say I have to keep them in luxury" thus his "tent city", bologna sandwiches, and pink underwear for those that don't behave.
    And yet, he's managed to have an uptick in violent crime while the rest of AZ's crime has decreased, has brought more suits against his city and position than any other person I know, is suspected of misappropriating funds, and has violated basic human decency on more than one condition (e.g. requiring an illegal or otherwise undocumented immigrant give birth while handcuffed in a jail cell). Not exactly something we should aspire to, I think we can be better than that.

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
    And yet, he's managed to have an uptick in violent crime while the rest of AZ's crime has decreased, has brought more suits against his city and position than any other person I know, is suspected of misappropriating funds, and has violated basic human decency on more than one condition (e.g. requiring an illegal or otherwise undocumented immigrant give birth while handcuffed in a jail cell). Not exactly something we should aspire to, I think we can be better than that.
    The mere fact that good ol' Sheriff Joe excels so well at ******* off the left means he's OK in my book. Voted for him every chance I got when I lived down there, I'd say I wish we could import him here but I honestly think AZ needs him more right now.

    Oh and illegal aliens have no rights the minute they cross the border far as I'm concerned
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    The mere fact that good ol' Sheriff Joe excels so well at ******* off the left means he's OK in my book. Voted for him every chance I got when I lived down there, I'd say I wish we could import him here but I honestly think AZ needs him more right now.

    Oh and illegal aliens have no rights the minute they cross the border far as I'm concerned
    As far as you're concerned, then, you're picking and choosing what parts of the Constitution just as much as any anti-gunner does.

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Wouldnt it just be easier not to commit a felony offense?
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

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    Hmmm....

    Repeat offenders is a spit in the face of our judicial system, prison, rehabilitation programs, and basic way of dealing with these sic people.
    Some felonies should not even be felonies. Non-violent, sane individuals should be given their rights back after their debt, which certainly includes probation.

    Illegals should fear coming here illegally and staying that way. They should also be treated as a human while in our custody. If caught, you still have to think about what kind of life they ran away from and are going back to indefinitely.

    Like it or not, I don't care.

    ETA: Most everyone's blood on this board carries the same that came here illegally or with no other cause than to destroy other humans lives by making their own here.
    Last edited by Aryk45XD; 07-28-2010 at 01:56 AM.

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
    As far as you're concerned, then, you're picking and choosing what parts of the Constitution just as much as any anti-gunner does.
    No, I'm not. Immigrants assimilate. Aliens take over. This is not immigration, it is a hostile foreign invasion and should be treated as such.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
    And yet, he's managed to have an uptick in violent crime while the rest of AZ's crime has decreased, has brought more suits against his city and position than any other person I know, is suspected of misappropriating funds, and has violated basic human decency on more than one condition (e.g. requiring an illegal or otherwise undocumented immigrant give birth while handcuffed in a jail cell). Not exactly something we should aspire to, I think we can be better than that.
    Ever lived or worked in AZ? Do you know which county "Sheriff Joe" is in? Same one as Phoenix and yes, crime is on the rise. Drug Crime as well as Gang Crime, most of which is brough about by our newly arrived illegals.

    Whenever someone like the Sheriff takes a position contrary to the Liberal Elitists he's bound to attract lawsuits. He will be accused of just about everything imaginable. That's an interesting thing about our legal system. ANYONE can bring a legal action. Groups and people with money can bring lots of lawsuits. That seems to be the trend over the last 30 years or so if you don't like something. Can't get your way, just tie everyone up with lawsuits. From Spotted Owls to "Law and Order" Sheriff's, can't get your way, just file suit.

    Funny thing about "Sheriff Joe", has been re-elected regularly, has wide public support (unless you don't have a green card or live a life of crime), and is doing what a majority of people in this country wish THEIR sheriff had the "nuggets" to do.

    I developed property in AZ for a 6 year period of time. Crime in the Maricopa County area was rampant. I would finish a building, install equipment, and within 48 hours have someone break in and steal what they could. As an example, the theives would climb a 12 foot cinder block wall, disassemble an air compressor, hoist the individual components over the wall and disappear. Police took reports but offered that the equipment was "probably in Mexico before I discovered the theft". Finally had to weld bolts and weave alarm wire into the equipment to stop the thefts (after 6 were lost). That's just a snapshot of crime in Maricopa County.

    What were the latest estimates of "Illegals" in AZ? Just go to Phoenix/Maricopa County and take a look. They seem own a large portion of the city/county.

    I stand by my statement that I like Sheriff Joes approach. Too bad that the liberal appologists don't.

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    Regular Member me812's Avatar
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    The problem with having a blanket ban on felons owning firearms is that not all felons are violent criminals.

    That's very true. In fact, Mahatma Gandhi was a convicted felon. He did two years in prison for sedition.

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    ...Good stuff...
    +1 said it better than I did.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Oh and illegal aliens have no rights the minute they cross the border far as I'm concerned

    ...

    No, I'm not. Immigrants assimilate. Aliens take over. This is not immigration, it is a hostile foreign invasion and should be treated as such.
    Yes, you're picking and choosing, but take it up with Madison (note, this is pre-14th amendment, even. 14th amendment made the fact that immigrants of all kinds had rights):

    Quote Originally Posted by Madison, father of the Bill of Rights
    If aliens had no rights under the Constitution, they might not only be banished, but even capitally punished, without a jury or the other incidents to a fair trial. But so far has a contrary principle been carried, in every part of the United States, that except on charges of treason, an alien has, besides all the common privileges, the special one of being tried by a jury, of which one-half may be also aliens.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
    14th amendment made the fact that immigrants of all kinds had rights):
    I think that everyone would agree that they have rights. Some within our society would like them to have a set of "super" rights, among them the right to enter this country illegally, commit crimes while here, then be immune from punishment (they often call it racism or persecution). Those I am referring to also want these illegal immigrants to be able to stay in this country, receiving all forms of free services and benefits that are often unavailable to the rest of us regardless of financial circumstance.

    I'm, all in favor of immigrants having rights. Among them are the right to enter this country legally. To stay in this country as law abiding citizens enjoying life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
    I believe that all immigrants have the right to due process. The illegal ones, or those who prefer crime to lawful activity should have the right to be arrested, receive fair treatment while in custody, receive a fair trial, and if convicted then they should have the right to be returned to the country from which they came.

    I DO NOT believe that immigrants should have the right to enter the country illegally with no intention of making this their country their permanent residence. These people are not "immigrants", they are visitors and as such should go home at the end of their "visit". All too many of these illegals do not come here to seek a better life here, they come here to work and send money home so they can have a better life THERE.

    Rights? Sure. Give them all the rights guaranteed under the Constitution. Just as long as they are also given the right to have the full weight of the law placed on their heads if they F***-up!

    So far, I don't see that happening and I think that is why so many would like them to be stripped of ALL rights in this country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    I think that everyone would agree that they have rights.


    ...

    Rights? Sure. Give them all the rights guaranteed under the Constitution. Just as long as they are also given the right to have the full weight of the law placed on their heads if they F***-up!

    So far, I don't see that happening and I think that is why so many would like them to be stripped of ALL rights in this country.
    Your first and last sentences contradict, and your first contradicts what has already been expressed within this thread. I grew up in the Southern California desert, on the way to Phoenix. I think we had a higher immigrant population (Indio/La Quinta/Palm Desert area) .

    Anyway, I don't have time to do this again, nor to argue with someone who is attacking a strawman, rather than with nuance.

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
    Yes, you're picking and choosing, but take it up with Madison (note, this is pre-14th amendment, even. 14th amendment made the fact that immigrants of all kinds had rights):
    Immigrants, man. Immigrants emigrate (that is, show up legaly), immigrants assimilate. Let me break it down for you:

    What would you do in this situation? Say I came barging into your home (since after all, you did leave the door unlocked) and said, "Ok, from now on you're going to do things my way. You will only speak to me in my language. You will take me to your hospital, and my children to your school (who will only be taught in my language, of course). I will contribute nothing to you financially, however, I will scrub the toilets & vacuum the couch cushions (since you won't do these jobs). Any change I find I will send back to my real home. Incidentally, my cousin, who happens to be a violent thug, will run a moonshine hose through some out-of-the-way corner of your home. You're not using that part anyway. Just be sure to keep your own kids away, violent thug, remember. And once my friends find out how good I have it, they'll all want to move in too. You won't care, we'll all live in the same broom closet. Now if anyone asks, I will be sure to tell them that I am not a member of your household! My real home is where I came from, and I'd rather be there, I'm just using you for my own personal benefit. If you dare criticize me I'll scream to your neighbors that you're a big meanie-head.

    Now, what would you do? You'd tell me to get the F--- out of course, then call the police. If the police wouldn't do their jobs, you'd remove me yourself, be force if necessary, and you would have every right to. I, however, would have no rights, I left them at the door when I entered your home without your permission.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
    I grew up in the Southern California desert, on the way to Phoenix. I think we had a higher immigrant population (Indio/La Quinta/Palm Desert area) ..
    Ain't been to Phoenix lately then, have ya?
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Immigrants, man. Immigrants emigrate (that is, show up legaly), immigrants assimilate. Let me break it down for you:

    What would you do in this situation? Say I came barging into your home (since after all, you did leave the door unlocked) and said, "Ok, from now on you're going to do things my way. You will only speak to me in my language. You will take me to your hospital, and my children to your school (who will only be taught in my language, of course). I will contribute nothing to you financially, however, I will scrub the toilets & vacuum the couch cushions (since you won't do these jobs). Any change I find I will send back to my real home. Incidentally, my cousin, who happens to be a violent thug, will run a moonshine hose through some out-of-the-way corner of your home. You're not using that part anyway. Just be sure to keep your own kids away, violent thug, remember. And once my friends find out how good I have it, they'll all want to move in too. You won't care, we'll all live in the same broom closet. Now if anyone asks, I will be sure to tell them that I am not a member of your household! My real home is where I came from, and I'd rather be there, I'm just using you for my own personal benefit. If you dare criticize me I'll scream to your neighbors that you're a big meanie-head.

    Now, what would you do? You'd tell me to get the F--- out of course, then call the police. If the police wouldn't do their jobs, you'd remove me yourself, be force if necessary, and you would have every right to. I, however, would have no rights, I left them at the door when I entered your home without your permission.
    Are you incapable of reading? Madison said nothing about immigrants. He said "aliens." Maybe you should do a refresher course on English . I'm not going to even try to address your racist characterization and analogy, it's not worth the effort.

    Federal judge just agreed with me and struck down most of the bill.

    Look, I'm not saying that I think illegal immigration is awesome and should be encouraged. What I am saying, though, is that there should be a viable path for legal immigration for all who want to come to America to work. What incentive does the illegal immigrant have to do anything but make as much as they can and go home, when they know they can't bring their family here, when they see how hostile people like you treat them. You act like they're sub-human, and then claim that the ideas you support for the running of our country, those in the Constitution, are somehow not applicable to them. In that refresher English course, perhaps you should also look at the meaning of "any person", as in "nor shall any State deprive any person..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
    Are you incapable of reading? Madison said nothing about immigrants. He said "aliens." Maybe you should do a refresher course on English . I'm not going to even try to address your racist characterization and analogy, it's not worth the effort.

    Federal judge just agreed with me and struck down most of the bill.

    Look, I'm not saying that I think illegal immigration is awesome and should be encouraged. What I am saying, though, is that there should be a viable path for legal immigration for all who want to come to America to work. What incentive does the illegal immigrant have to do anything but make as much as they can and go home, when they know they can't bring their family here, when they see how hostile people like you treat them. You act like they're sub-human, and then claim that the ideas you support for the running of our country, those in the Constitution, are somehow not applicable to them. In that refresher English course, perhaps you should also look at the meaning of "any person", as in "nor shall any State deprive any person..."

    You will notice I highlighted some of your last post.

    There is this wonderful thing called a Work visa, also the migrant farmer visa, dont forget the student visa the regular visa, the political refugee visa and the refugee visa. There is also the regular visitors (comonly known as vacation) visa where once they are here they can APPLY for citizenship.....

    Just how many "legitimate" ways does one need?

    The problem is you are an idealist and think if we all relax a little everything will be ok and everyone will love and hug and kiss and coddle us. Unfortunately this is the real world were there is such a thing as "propensity of criminal behavior" Whether you believe in psychology or not there are NUMEROUS studies that have shown if someone commits one crime (even stealing a candy bar) the are at a GREATER risk to commit a crime then someone who hasnt committed crimes before.

    Not saying that all illegals are criminals, but they have the PROPENSITY, just as a thief does.

    How many illegal immigrants pay taxes? Child support? Drive legally? Own guns LEGALLY?

    The problem with allowing illegal actions to occur is that it is kinda like raising a kid. Kid does something wrong and you dont punish them pretty soon they are gonna push and see what they can get away with. How far are we gonna allow these people who step foot on american soil as criminals (for violating immigration laws) to continue to test what we will allow them to do in our own country that they in no way shape or form support?

    I believe that covers most of my major beliefs and issues with the previous post....

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    Quote Originally Posted by devildoc5 View Post
    You will notice I highlighted some of your last post.

    There is this wonderful thing called a Work visa, also the migrant farmer visa, dont forget the student visa the regular visa, the political refugee visa and the refugee visa. There is also the regular visitors (comonly known as vacation) visa where once they are here they can APPLY for citizenship.....

    Just how many "legitimate" ways does one need?
    First, all of those are non-immigrant visas. In the part you highlighted, I said, specifically, "viable path for legal immigration."

    Second, the visas are a nightmare, and they are largely unavailable for migrant workers. For example, the TN status visas require collegiate education, require a payment, waiting period, certified documentation for labor, and proof of participation in a recognized area. The refugee/political refugee visas are not available to those from Mexico. Student visas aren't available for non students. The J-1 visa is unavailable for migratory workers, so that leaves the H2-A/B. Start looking into the requirements to get one of those, they're surprisingly difficult for what the jobs pay. And, again, it does *nothing* to address immigration.


    The problem is you are an idealist and think if we all relax a little everything will be ok and everyone will love and hug and kiss and coddle us. Unfortunately this is the real world were there is such a thing as "propensity of criminal behavior" Whether you believe in psychology or not there are NUMEROUS studies that have shown if someone commits one crime (even stealing a candy bar) the are at a GREATER risk to commit a crime then someone who hasnt committed crimes before.
    Before you go calling me an idealist, you should try to get to know my position a bit better. You're actually the first person to call me an idealist, so I'll take it as a complement, maybe I'm learning not to be so pessimistic/realist/objectivist. As for your propensity of criminal behavior... first of all, border jumping is breaking civil law, not criminal. That was part of Arizona's SB1070 problem.


    Not saying that all illegals are criminals, but they have the PROPENSITY, just as a thief does.
    By this argument, I could say we all have the propensity for rape if we've ever gone over the speed limit, not refilled a meter on time while parking, drank too much while out in public, or done any of a number of actions that are designated as "illegal".

    How many illegal immigrants pay taxes? Child support? Drive legally? Own guns LEGALLY?
    Numbers you could try to provide, but I'll address the last one - I consider owning a firearm as a means of self-defense a fundamental human right. Other countries may strip those who visit those places of that right through threat of force, but it does not change my view that all free people have that right, especially those people who are in our country, where we recognize that right as a fundamental limitation upon the government's banning ability.

    The problem with allowing illegal actions to occur is that it is kinda like raising a kid. Kid does something wrong and you dont punish them pretty soon they are gonna push and see what they can get away with. How far are we gonna allow these people who step foot on american soil as criminals (for violating immigration laws) to continue to test what we will allow them to do in our own country that they in no way shape or form support?

    I believe that covers most of my major beliefs and issues with the previous post....
    Again, current USC 8 SS 1325 makes it a civil violation, not a criminal one. How long are we going to keep trying the same stupid thing over and over and over and over with regards to immigration policy before realizing there is a better way, one where we let those who want to be here come here on the condition they do so to join the country as citizens?

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Man Tawnos, I just lost some respect for you. First you pull the race(ist) card, then you make personal attacks while completely ignoring what I said. I'm sorry if you think an accurate analogy of the current situation as it is is "racist," but it's simply the truth. You keep using the word "immigrant," but these people are NOT immigrants! As I said before, immigrants assimilate. Those of whom we are speaking have NO desire to become Americans. They don't want to join our society, they want to take advantage of it, then go home. You say "legitimate" immigration is so difficult, and yet immigrants (REAL immigrants) from VIRTUALLY EVERY OTHER COUNTRY manage to do it by their thousands.

    And Arizona DID realize there's a better way: ACTUALLY ENFORCING THE LAW! Illegal aliens have been flooding out of the state since this whole thing started, showing that enforcement, even the mere THREAT of enforcement, WORKS!

    And I think you would know better, just because a judge says something, doesn't make it right.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Tawnos I am not gonna take up space by quoting your whole response. However unlike most people my age and older I have been to numerous foreign countries myself. THE FIRST thing you do is try and figure out where things are (ask questions). Lets take Italy for example where I lived for over 4 years. When I got there and tried to figure things out I was young and dumb and would try and ask everyone in English. You know what that got me? A whole bunch of (shrugs shoulders and mimicks "I dont know.") The absolute SECOND I butchered the Italian language and pronounced a bunch of words wrong and completely ruined any chance of anyone understanding me, I got "Yes sir how may I help you?" IN PERFECT ENGLISH. Same applies to EVERY OTHER country I have been to.

    So why is it different for ILLEGALS? Why should I have to learn how to speak their language in MY country? Not theirs mine. Why should I have to push a special button to speak English to an operator in MY country? That right there is a respect issue.

    Border jumping, whether civil or criminal is still illegal and more importantly shows disrespect for the laws of MY country.

    You talk about how (if I recall correctly as I type this) "ignorant Americans" disrespect ILLEGALS, yet I have shown you two VERY VERY common disrespectful items that occur on a regular basis from the ILLEGALS (remember I just moved here from San Diego, think I know a few things about ILLEGALS and how the majority of them act).

    Next you go on to provide a break down of visa types and what have you not. You state how incredibly difficult it is to get a visa and that there is not viable option for anyone to immigrate to the US without lengthy paper work and forms and fees.

    IT IS CALLED THE GOVERNMENT part of its very job is to bury people with paper work and forms, if they want to be part of this country perhaps they should get used to it? Secondly those forms are to make sure (to the best of the governments ability) that the person attempting to immigrate is not a wanted fugitive (except in political refugee cases where this might be acceptable). Should we just open our borders and allow MORE BG's in? Do you feel like we dont have enough here already?

    Fees are next on my bullet points. It costs money to operate ANYTHING nowadays. matter of fact there is a fee for renewing your drivers license (or getting it to begin with) your license plates, get a copy of YOUR OWN BIRTH CERTIFICATE and just about anything else having to do with the government (state or federal) are you saying we should not charge fees to help recoup SOME of the costs of paperwork and investigation and data entry peoples salaries? That the tax payers should pay it all?

    Next you go on to state that none of the visas I previously mentioned were immigrant visas. in that you are correct as an immigrant visa is called a permanent resident card (green card) HOWEVER to become a citizen AFTER you are already here (i.e. you are here on a 2 month visa) ALL that has to be done is fill out the paper work, take a class and a test, pay the fees and you can get your green card. That does not sound much more difficult to me then finding someone to hide you in the back of an ice truck and bring you across the border in pitch black darkness while running from the border patrol....

    Your propensity to rape comment is actually FACTUAL, Sigmund Frued discovered it and it has been proven time and time again by psychologists. (Commonly referred to as unnatural sexual desires and subconscious erotic fantasies)

    Yes I agree that owning a firearm, especially a handgun is a means of self defense. I also agree that there should be no licensing to speak of. HOWEVER in some states there are still laws that force licensing on people (especially for CC). That being said if one carries a gun bought on the street and carries it around waistband style (gangbanger-homie style) they are violation the law, that makes it illegal or unlawful or whatever you wanna call it. I never asked if it was philosophically justified, I just asked how many owned guns illegally

    I have already addressed your last comment but I will do so again just to be thorough, whether it is a civil violation or a criminal violation is irrelevant. That is just like saying that parking in a red zone is a civil traffic citation (not even a misdemeanor) however the fact still remains that is a violation of the law. This has been proven to be a contributing factor to FURTHER disobedience of laws, be they civil or criminal.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Man Tawnos, I just lost some respect for you. First you pull the race(ist) card, then you make personal attacks while completely ignoring what I said. I'm sorry if you think an accurate analogy of the current situation as it is is "racist," but it's simply the truth.
    I simply pointed out that you should perhaps pay attention to the words used. You claimed that "illegal aliens have no rights the minute they cross the border." I pointed out that Madison showed the logical end of having no rights - capital punishment with neither jury nor trial. I did *not* pull the "race card", as I attempted to gain no political or economic benefit through mention of race. I did, however, call your classification and stereotyping of Mexican immigrants to be racist. Your claim that "it's simply the truth" is questionable at best, but it echoes the same sentiment of the most vile racial claims. By generalizing a population of individuals as reflecting and supporting the actions of that population's worst members, you do no better than one who thinks all gun owners are racist redneck hicks who would shoot someone over a parking space.

    You keep using the word "immigrant," but these people are NOT immigrants! As I said before, immigrants assimilate.
    An immigrant is simply one who moves to a new country with the intent to settle there. Assimilation is not required to meet the definition of immigrant. Moreover, you discount those who come here and assimilate to the best of their ability, whose kids, as second generation immigrants, have the ability and time to grow up in an assimilated fashion, based on their parents' sacrifices.

    Those of whom we are speaking have NO desire to become Americans. They don't want to join our society, they want to take advantage of it, then go home. You say "legitimate" immigration is so difficult, and yet immigrants (REAL immigrants) from VIRTUALLY EVERY OTHER COUNTRY manage to do it by their thousands.
    How do you know this? How can you even make this claim, when those who want to come here and join our society through the legal channels cannot due to a quota system established at the height of the Great Depression? Legally, there can be no more immigrants than 700,000 per year. Those from Mexico, practically, cannot immigrate without immediate dependent family that are US citizens. If there are thousands that don't have the option to come through legal channels, how can you say they don't want to "join our society"? Why are there so many that have bought homes, raised kids, and done everything that indicates they want to be part of the US? Certainly, there are exceptions, but if you judge a population based on the exceptions you'll get nowhere good.

    Basically, I'm asking how you can claim anything regarding the immigrant population when we provide practically no means for them to come here, to stay, legally?

    And Arizona DID realize there's a better way: ACTUALLY ENFORCING THE LAW! Illegal aliens have been flooding out of the state since this whole thing started, showing that enforcement, even the mere THREAT of enforcement, WORKS!

    And I think you would know better, just because a judge says something, doesn't make it right.
    Arizona went farther than that, it's why they got constitutionally smacked down. They stepped outside of the bounds of the highest law in the country, the Constitution. Much as Hiibel v. Nevada and Brown v. Texas before it stated, we are not a "papers, please" society. The fact you want to drive us that direction sickens me. Let's try standing up for more than just the second amendment, eh?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildoc5 View Post
    Tawnos I am not gonna take up space by quoting your whole response. However unlike most people my age and older I have been to numerous foreign countries myself. THE FIRST thing you do is try and figure out where things are (ask questions). Lets take Italy for example where I lived for over 4 years. When I got there and tried to figure things out I was young and dumb and would try and ask everyone in English. You know what that got me? A whole bunch of (shrugs shoulders and mimicks "I dont know.") The absolute SECOND I butchered the Italian language and pronounced a bunch of words wrong and completely ruined any chance of anyone understanding me, I got "Yes sir how may I help you?" IN PERFECT ENGLISH. Same applies to EVERY OTHER country I have been to.
    I'll answer sectionally so you know what point I'm speaking to. Would it surprise you to learn the US has no official language? Yes, we have a de facto standard of English, but that is not the case everywhere. You will find pockets of towns that speak primarily Spanish, Korean, German, Japanese, or any other language where a large number of immigrants have settled, either historically or recently. I think this covers it better than I could or care to. My question: does it really bother you that people don't speak English? The fact is, people who ignored you because you weren't embarrassing yourself by trying to stumble through their language, when they perfectly understood you, were being ********. I'm better than that, if I understand someone speaking another language, I will do my best to communicate in a way that accomodates them. No need to be rude.

    So why is it different for ILLEGALS? Why should I have to learn how to speak their language in MY country? Not theirs mine. Why should I have to push a special button to speak English to an operator in MY country? That right there is a respect issue.
    By what aspect is it your country? You won the womb lottery? Did you fight versus the British, or have you just been fortunate enough to be born here? You set yourself on quite the high place, thinking you deserve special respect (and language, of all things) because you are unwilling to learn other languages. I'm trying to learn other languages (I suck at it, but am trying), why shouldn't you do the same? ****, people in the Netherlands speak 4 different languages, at least - I don't see them whining "oh no people don't speak my preferred language when they come here."

    Border jumping, whether civil or criminal is still illegal and more importantly shows disrespect for the laws of MY country.
    You talk about how (if I recall correctly as I type this) "ignorant Americans" disrespect ILLEGALS, yet I have shown you two VERY VERY common disrespectful items that occur on a regular basis from the ILLEGALS (remember I just moved here from San Diego, think I know a few things about ILLEGALS and how the majority of them act).
    Please point out where I said that. I said that "[Metalhead47] act[s] like they're sub-human, and then claim that the ideas [he] support[s] for the running of our country, those in the Constitution, are somehow not applicable to them." I moved here from San Luis Obispo, California. I've lived in Irvine, San Gabriel, and Palm Desert before that, so I'm well aware of the presence of illegal immigrants in Southern California. It seems to me that you take disrespect from someone trying to eke out a living and support their family, simply because they are different than you, from a different background, language, etc.

    Next you go on to provide a break down of visa types and what have you not. You state how incredibly difficult it is to get a visa and that there is not viable option for anyone to immigrate to the US without lengthy paper work and forms and fees.

    IT IS CALLED THE GOVERNMENT part of its very job is to bury people with paper work and forms, if they want to be part of this country perhaps they should get used to it? Secondly those forms are to make sure (to the best of the governments ability) that the person attempting to immigrate is not a wanted fugitive (except in political refugee cases where this might be acceptable). Should we just open our borders and allow MORE BG's in? Do you feel like we dont have enough here already?
    I don't think the government always (or even often) represents the best of our country. I don't think pointing out the bureaucracy that's inherent in the present day offers any persuasive reasoning *why* that bureaucracy is right. I pointed out earlier that it's nigh impossible for a person to go through the legal immigration process in the status quo. So yes, I think we should open our borders in the following manner: Streamline the process for coming here. Set up a system that provides strong incentives for coming here through the proper channels (e.g. no fees or refunded fees for anyone who comes here and works for 5 years without committing any crimes, misdemeanor or felony). Additionally, provide a reason for immigrants to help police other immigrants. If they're here legally, they won't need to fear reporting crimes. Provide additional contingencies or incentives for reporting and leading to the conviction of any immigrant who has committed a crime.

    I think you're naÔve if you believe that bad guys won't come here, be made here, or otherwise be here by simply "closing the borders". But by reaching out to the immigrant community, we can help change the situation from one where they protect (or just don't report) a criminal because 1) the criminal is another immigrant, 2) they fear being called out as an illegal immigrant and facing punishment themselves. You also presume that everyone who would immigrate is a bad guy. That is patently bad.

    Fees are next on my bullet points. It costs money to operate ANYTHING nowadays. matter of fact there is a fee for renewing your drivers license (or getting it to begin with) your license plates, get a copy of YOUR OWN BIRTH CERTIFICATE and just about anything else having to do with the government (state or federal) are you saying we should not charge fees to help recoup SOME of the costs of paperwork and investigation and data entry peoples salaries? That the tax payers should pay it all?
    Make them legal, and guess what? It's easier to track how much funds they are taking in and what taxes they owe. I think if we charge fees to come here and become a contributing member of our society, then we should offset those in tax incentives over the course of the first 5 years here, or otherwise provide a benefit or reason to go into a contributing role. This ties into another one of my thoughts about society, which is tangent to this discussion but I'll mention anyway - everyone above poverty should be contributing some amount to the tax burden. It can be very small, even a linear sliding scale, for those in the lowest income brackets, but it certainly would make people appreciate those services they receive. This would make sure that anyone coming here would have form of input into the system (besides the already known input of cheap labor, which is a necessity in the country, but one that most seem to overlook).

    Next you go on to state that none of the visas I previously mentioned were immigrant visas. in that you are correct as an immigrant visa is called a permanent resident card (green card) HOWEVER to become a citizen AFTER you are already here (i.e. you are here on a 2 month visa) ALL that has to be done is fill out the paper work, take a class and a test, pay the fees and you can get your green card. That does not sound much more difficult to me then finding someone to hide you in the back of an ice truck and bring you across the border in pitch black darkness while running from the border patrol....
    If only it were so easy, and you weren't so wrong. Applying for a permanent visa is a separate process from the temporary visa one, and having temporary authorization provides no benefit in that process. Not to mention that those who want a green card face a backlog that stretches into the timespan of years. Geez, if it were just "come here on work visa, fill out the paperwork, take class and test, get green card" I would shut up and go away - that seems perfectly reasonable. However, it's not the status quo.

    Your propensity to rape comment is actually FACTUAL, Sigmund Frued discovered it and it has been proven time and time again by psychologists. (Commonly referred to as unnatural sexual desires and subconscious erotic fantasies)
    Freud is highly disputed, some of his stuff was upheld, most has been overturned by further research. I'd like to see the "proven research" that someone who breaks any law is more likely to rape, murder, steal, whatever (and who's the control group? are you saying that there exists a person here who has not broken some law, at some point in their life?).

    Yes I agree that owning a firearm, especially a handgun is a means of self defense. I also agree that there should be no licensing to speak of. HOWEVER in some states there are still laws that force licensing on people (especially for CC). That being said if one carries a gun bought on the street and carries it around waistband style (gangbanger-homie style) they are violation the law, that makes it illegal or unlawful or whatever you wanna call it. I never asked if it was philosophically justified, I just asked how many owned guns illegally
    I bolded something above, because I want you to think about what you're saying there. It's incorrect. I can legally purchase a gun and carry it like an idiot..er..kwikrnu... to my heart's content (provided enough is exposed to be OC. In Arizona, Alaska, and Vermont, I could even do that and conceal, no (legal) problem.

    I have already addressed your last comment but I will do so again just to be thorough, whether it is a civil violation or a criminal violation is irrelevant. That is just like saying that parking in a red zone is a civil traffic citation (not even a misdemeanor) however the fact still remains that is a violation of the law. This has been proven to be a contributing factor to FURTHER disobedience of laws, be they civil or criminal.
    Show me the proof, the studies. Moreover, and more importantly, show me that it doesn't cause people to disrespect the laws because they start to view them as arbitrary and poorly enforced, due to there being so many laws and "victimless crimes" (see other thread).

  25. #25
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    This is OC related?

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