• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Suspects have long criminal records..

Metalhead47

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Messages
2,800
Location
South Whidbey, Washington, USA
Man Tawnos, I just lost some respect for you. First you pull the race(ist) card, then you make personal attacks while completely ignoring what I said. I'm sorry if you think an accurate analogy of the current situation as it is is "racist," but it's simply the truth. You keep using the word "immigrant," but these people are NOT immigrants! As I said before, immigrants assimilate. Those of whom we are speaking have NO desire to become Americans. They don't want to join our society, they want to take advantage of it, then go home. You say "legitimate" immigration is so difficult, and yet immigrants (REAL immigrants) from VIRTUALLY EVERY OTHER COUNTRY manage to do it by their thousands.

And Arizona DID realize there's a better way: ACTUALLY ENFORCING THE LAW! Illegal aliens have been flooding out of the state since this whole thing started, showing that enforcement, even the mere THREAT of enforcement, WORKS!

And I think you would know better, just because a judge says something, doesn't make it right. :p
 

devildoc5

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2010
Messages
791
Location
Somewhere over run with mud(s)
Tawnos I am not gonna take up space by quoting your whole response. However unlike most people my age and older I have been to numerous foreign countries myself. THE FIRST thing you do is try and figure out where things are (ask questions). Lets take Italy for example where I lived for over 4 years. When I got there and tried to figure things out I was young and dumb and would try and ask everyone in English. You know what that got me? A whole bunch of (shrugs shoulders and mimicks "I dont know.") The absolute SECOND I butchered the Italian language and pronounced a bunch of words wrong and completely ruined any chance of anyone understanding me, I got "Yes sir how may I help you?" IN PERFECT ENGLISH. Same applies to EVERY OTHER country I have been to.

So why is it different for ILLEGALS? Why should I have to learn how to speak their language in MY country? Not theirs mine. Why should I have to push a special button to speak English to an operator in MY country? That right there is a respect issue.

Border jumping, whether civil or criminal is still illegal and more importantly shows disrespect for the laws of MY country.

You talk about how (if I recall correctly as I type this) "ignorant Americans" disrespect ILLEGALS, yet I have shown you two VERY VERY common disrespectful items that occur on a regular basis from the ILLEGALS (remember I just moved here from San Diego, think I know a few things about ILLEGALS and how the majority of them act).

Next you go on to provide a break down of visa types and what have you not. You state how incredibly difficult it is to get a visa and that there is not viable option for anyone to immigrate to the US without lengthy paper work and forms and fees.

IT IS CALLED THE GOVERNMENT part of its very job is to bury people with paper work and forms, if they want to be part of this country perhaps they should get used to it? Secondly those forms are to make sure (to the best of the governments ability) that the person attempting to immigrate is not a wanted fugitive (except in political refugee cases where this might be acceptable). Should we just open our borders and allow MORE BG's in? Do you feel like we dont have enough here already?

Fees are next on my bullet points. It costs money to operate ANYTHING nowadays. matter of fact there is a fee for renewing your drivers license (or getting it to begin with) your license plates, get a copy of YOUR OWN BIRTH CERTIFICATE and just about anything else having to do with the government (state or federal) are you saying we should not charge fees to help recoup SOME of the costs of paperwork and investigation and data entry peoples salaries? That the tax payers should pay it all?

Next you go on to state that none of the visas I previously mentioned were immigrant visas. in that you are correct as an immigrant visa is called a permanent resident card (green card) HOWEVER to become a citizen AFTER you are already here (i.e. you are here on a 2 month visa) ALL that has to be done is fill out the paper work, take a class and a test, pay the fees and you can get your green card. That does not sound much more difficult to me then finding someone to hide you in the back of an ice truck and bring you across the border in pitch black darkness while running from the border patrol....

Your propensity to rape comment is actually FACTUAL, Sigmund Frued discovered it and it has been proven time and time again by psychologists. (Commonly referred to as unnatural sexual desires and subconscious erotic fantasies)

Yes I agree that owning a firearm, especially a handgun is a means of self defense. I also agree that there should be no licensing to speak of. HOWEVER in some states there are still laws that force licensing on people (especially for CC). That being said if one carries a gun bought on the street and carries it around waistband style (gangbanger-homie style) they are violation the law, that makes it illegal or unlawful or whatever you wanna call it. I never asked if it was philosophically justified, I just asked how many owned guns illegally

I have already addressed your last comment but I will do so again just to be thorough, whether it is a civil violation or a criminal violation is irrelevant. That is just like saying that parking in a red zone is a civil traffic citation (not even a misdemeanor) however the fact still remains that is a violation of the law. This has been proven to be a contributing factor to FURTHER disobedience of laws, be they civil or criminal.
 

Tawnos

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,542
Location
Washington
Man Tawnos, I just lost some respect for you. First you pull the race(ist) card, then you make personal attacks while completely ignoring what I said. I'm sorry if you think an accurate analogy of the current situation as it is is "racist," but it's simply the truth.
I simply pointed out that you should perhaps pay attention to the words used. You claimed that "illegal aliens have no rights the minute they cross the border." I pointed out that Madison showed the logical end of having no rights - capital punishment with neither jury nor trial. I did *not* pull the "race card", as I attempted to gain no political or economic benefit through mention of race. I did, however, call your classification and stereotyping of Mexican immigrants to be racist. Your claim that "it's simply the truth" is questionable at best, but it echoes the same sentiment of the most vile racial claims. By generalizing a population of individuals as reflecting and supporting the actions of that population's worst members, you do no better than one who thinks all gun owners are racist redneck hicks who would shoot someone over a parking space.

You keep using the word "immigrant," but these people are NOT immigrants! As I said before, immigrants assimilate.
An immigrant is simply one who moves to a new country with the intent to settle there. Assimilation is not required to meet the definition of immigrant. Moreover, you discount those who come here and assimilate to the best of their ability, whose kids, as second generation immigrants, have the ability and time to grow up in an assimilated fashion, based on their parents' sacrifices.

Those of whom we are speaking have NO desire to become Americans. They don't want to join our society, they want to take advantage of it, then go home. You say "legitimate" immigration is so difficult, and yet immigrants (REAL immigrants) from VIRTUALLY EVERY OTHER COUNTRY manage to do it by their thousands.
How do you know this? How can you even make this claim, when those who want to come here and join our society through the legal channels cannot due to a quota system established at the height of the Great Depression? Legally, there can be no more immigrants than 700,000 per year. Those from Mexico, practically, cannot immigrate without immediate dependent family that are US citizens. If there are thousands that don't have the option to come through legal channels, how can you say they don't want to "join our society"? Why are there so many that have bought homes, raised kids, and done everything that indicates they want to be part of the US? Certainly, there are exceptions, but if you judge a population based on the exceptions you'll get nowhere good.

Basically, I'm asking how you can claim anything regarding the immigrant population when we provide practically no means for them to come here, to stay, legally?

And Arizona DID realize there's a better way: ACTUALLY ENFORCING THE LAW! Illegal aliens have been flooding out of the state since this whole thing started, showing that enforcement, even the mere THREAT of enforcement, WORKS!

And I think you would know better, just because a judge says something, doesn't make it right. :p
Arizona went farther than that, it's why they got constitutionally smacked down. They stepped outside of the bounds of the highest law in the country, the Constitution. Much as Hiibel v. Nevada and Brown v. Texas before it stated, we are not a "papers, please" society. The fact you want to drive us that direction sickens me. Let's try standing up for more than just the second amendment, eh?
 

Tawnos

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,542
Location
Washington
Tawnos I am not gonna take up space by quoting your whole response. However unlike most people my age and older I have been to numerous foreign countries myself. THE FIRST thing you do is try and figure out where things are (ask questions). Lets take Italy for example where I lived for over 4 years. When I got there and tried to figure things out I was young and dumb and would try and ask everyone in English. You know what that got me? A whole bunch of (shrugs shoulders and mimicks "I dont know.") The absolute SECOND I butchered the Italian language and pronounced a bunch of words wrong and completely ruined any chance of anyone understanding me, I got "Yes sir how may I help you?" IN PERFECT ENGLISH. Same applies to EVERY OTHER country I have been to.
I'll answer sectionally so you know what point I'm speaking to. Would it surprise you to learn the US has no official language? Yes, we have a de facto standard of English, but that is not the case everywhere. You will find pockets of towns that speak primarily Spanish, Korean, German, Japanese, or any other language where a large number of immigrants have settled, either historically or recently. I think this covers it better than I could or care to. My question: does it really bother you that people don't speak English? The fact is, people who ignored you because you weren't embarrassing yourself by trying to stumble through their language, when they perfectly understood you, were being assholes. I'm better than that, if I understand someone speaking another language, I will do my best to communicate in a way that accomodates them. No need to be rude.

So why is it different for ILLEGALS? Why should I have to learn how to speak their language in MY country? Not theirs mine. Why should I have to push a special button to speak English to an operator in MY country? That right there is a respect issue.
By what aspect is it your country? You won the womb lottery? Did you fight versus the British, or have you just been fortunate enough to be born here? You set yourself on quite the high place, thinking you deserve special respect (and language, of all things) because you are unwilling to learn other languages. I'm trying to learn other languages (I suck at it, but am trying), why shouldn't you do the same? ****, people in the Netherlands speak 4 different languages, at least - I don't see them whining "oh no people don't speak my preferred language when they come here."

Border jumping, whether civil or criminal is still illegal and more importantly shows disrespect for the laws of MY country.

You talk about how (if I recall correctly as I type this) "ignorant Americans" disrespect ILLEGALS, yet I have shown you two VERY VERY common disrespectful items that occur on a regular basis from the ILLEGALS (remember I just moved here from San Diego, think I know a few things about ILLEGALS and how the majority of them act).
Please point out where I said that. I said that "[Metalhead47] act like they're sub-human, and then claim that the ideas [he] support for the running of our country, those in the Constitution, are somehow not applicable to them." I moved here from San Luis Obispo, California. I've lived in Irvine, San Gabriel, and Palm Desert before that, so I'm well aware of the presence of illegal immigrants in Southern California. It seems to me that you take disrespect from someone trying to eke out a living and support their family, simply because they are different than you, from a different background, language, etc.

Next you go on to provide a break down of visa types and what have you not. You state how incredibly difficult it is to get a visa and that there is not viable option for anyone to immigrate to the US without lengthy paper work and forms and fees.

IT IS CALLED THE GOVERNMENT part of its very job is to bury people with paper work and forms, if they want to be part of this country perhaps they should get used to it? Secondly those forms are to make sure (to the best of the governments ability) that the person attempting to immigrate is not a wanted fugitive (except in political refugee cases where this might be acceptable). Should we just open our borders and allow MORE BG's in? Do you feel like we dont have enough here already?
I don't think the government always (or even often) represents the best of our country. I don't think pointing out the bureaucracy that's inherent in the present day offers any persuasive reasoning *why* that bureaucracy is right. I pointed out earlier that it's nigh impossible for a person to go through the legal immigration process in the status quo. So yes, I think we should open our borders in the following manner: Streamline the process for coming here. Set up a system that provides strong incentives for coming here through the proper channels (e.g. no fees or refunded fees for anyone who comes here and works for 5 years without committing any crimes, misdemeanor or felony). Additionally, provide a reason for immigrants to help police other immigrants. If they're here legally, they won't need to fear reporting crimes. Provide additional contingencies or incentives for reporting and leading to the conviction of any immigrant who has committed a crime.

I think you're naïve if you believe that bad guys won't come here, be made here, or otherwise be here by simply "closing the borders". But by reaching out to the immigrant community, we can help change the situation from one where they protect (or just don't report) a criminal because 1) the criminal is another immigrant, 2) they fear being called out as an illegal immigrant and facing punishment themselves. You also presume that everyone who would immigrate is a bad guy. That is patently bad.

Fees are next on my bullet points. It costs money to operate ANYTHING nowadays. matter of fact there is a fee for renewing your drivers license (or getting it to begin with) your license plates, get a copy of YOUR OWN BIRTH CERTIFICATE and just about anything else having to do with the government (state or federal) are you saying we should not charge fees to help recoup SOME of the costs of paperwork and investigation and data entry peoples salaries? That the tax payers should pay it all?
Make them legal, and guess what? It's easier to track how much funds they are taking in and what taxes they owe. I think if we charge fees to come here and become a contributing member of our society, then we should offset those in tax incentives over the course of the first 5 years here, or otherwise provide a benefit or reason to go into a contributing role. This ties into another one of my thoughts about society, which is tangent to this discussion but I'll mention anyway - everyone above poverty should be contributing some amount to the tax burden. It can be very small, even a linear sliding scale, for those in the lowest income brackets, but it certainly would make people appreciate those services they receive. This would make sure that anyone coming here would have form of input into the system (besides the already known input of cheap labor, which is a necessity in the country, but one that most seem to overlook).

Next you go on to state that none of the visas I previously mentioned were immigrant visas. in that you are correct as an immigrant visa is called a permanent resident card (green card) HOWEVER to become a citizen AFTER you are already here (i.e. you are here on a 2 month visa) ALL that has to be done is fill out the paper work, take a class and a test, pay the fees and you can get your green card. That does not sound much more difficult to me then finding someone to hide you in the back of an ice truck and bring you across the border in pitch black darkness while running from the border patrol....
If only it were so easy, and you weren't so wrong. Applying for a permanent visa is a separate process from the temporary visa one, and having temporary authorization provides no benefit in that process. Not to mention that those who want a green card face a backlog that stretches into the timespan of years. Geez, if it were just "come here on work visa, fill out the paperwork, take class and test, get green card" I would shut up and go away - that seems perfectly reasonable. However, it's not the status quo.

Your propensity to rape comment is actually FACTUAL, Sigmund Frued discovered it and it has been proven time and time again by psychologists. (Commonly referred to as unnatural sexual desires and subconscious erotic fantasies)
Freud is highly disputed, some of his stuff was upheld, most has been overturned by further research. I'd like to see the "proven research" that someone who breaks any law is more likely to rape, murder, steal, whatever (and who's the control group? are you saying that there exists a person here who has not broken some law, at some point in their life?).

Yes I agree that owning a firearm, especially a handgun is a means of self defense. I also agree that there should be no licensing to speak of. HOWEVER in some states there are still laws that force licensing on people (especially for CC). That being said if one carries a gun bought on the street and carries it around waistband style (gangbanger-homie style) they are violation the law, that makes it illegal or unlawful or whatever you wanna call it. I never asked if it was philosophically justified, I just asked how many owned guns illegally
I bolded something above, because I want you to think about what you're saying there. It's incorrect. I can legally purchase a gun and carry it like an idiot..er..kwikrnu... to my heart's content (provided enough is exposed to be OC. In Arizona, Alaska, and Vermont, I could even do that and conceal, no (legal) problem.

I have already addressed your last comment but I will do so again just to be thorough, whether it is a civil violation or a criminal violation is irrelevant. That is just like saying that parking in a red zone is a civil traffic citation (not even a misdemeanor) however the fact still remains that is a violation of the law. This has been proven to be a contributing factor to FURTHER disobedience of laws, be they civil or criminal.
Show me the proof, the studies. Moreover, and more importantly, show me that it doesn't cause people to disrespect the laws because they start to view them as arbitrary and poorly enforced, due to there being so many laws and "victimless crimes" (see other thread).
 
Top