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Thread: Asked to cover up by a customer, outside of a Hooters.

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    Asked to cover up by a customer, outside of a Hooters.

    I rode my motorcycle to Hooters with a large group of riders today. I was wearing only jeans, T-shirt, and shoulder holster with my M&P40. After standing outside and talking with friends for at least an hour, I overheard a woman complaining. She is in the bike community, but doesn't ride, and had asked me to cover my gun at a bike show on Sunday, stating "this isn't that kind of event". A guy who I have met in the past came up to me and asked me to cover my gun. I told him I can't because I don't have a jacket with me. He said I was making some people nervous and mentioned something about the manager, but never said that the manager had asked me to leave. However, he was asking me to cover it (or leave) and asked that I do not come back while open carrying. I did not want to start a battle within the bike community. I told him that I would stay around for another 10 minutes or so, to say 'bye' to friends, and then I would leave. I suspect that the girl who was nervous rallied other people to support her, or at least to agree with "yeah, I don't know why he needs a gun", and then had her friend ask me to leave.

    What is Hooter's corporate policy on OC? Where do I find this info? I want to find their policy on OC, then contact the branch manager and explain the situation as well as their policy, and then abide by their policy in the future (whatever their policy is).

    This happened at the Hooters at 9635 Des Moines Memorial Drive, Seattle, WA‎. It's pretty annoying because I did not even enter the building! Any advice or direction is appreciated.

  2. #2
    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Doesnt matter what Hooters policy is. It was customers who had the problem, not Hooters. You didnt have an employee come up to you did you? If they dont like the color of somones skin do they ask them to leave? If they dont like the way someone is dressed do they ask them to go home and change. Do they have visable tattoo's? If someone doesnt like tattoo's would they cover them up for them out of consideration, or would they laugh at them and say "what nerve"?
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

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    There are a number of ways to handle such a situation. I will focus on just one. I'm not saying it is the best. I'm not saying it will work in every similar OC situation. I am saying I have seen it be a howling success outside of an OC situation, producing immediate results that opened the door to a resolution of the situation.

    First a little backround info.

    The comment "some people" is a vagueness. An indefiniteness. When it accompanies an attack or criticism, it is hard to address or fight back against because you cannot locate your target. For certain people, using this tactic it is unintentional. They have been imprecise for so long they do not even realize they are doing it. But, for others, the tactic is deliberate. Also, it can inflate a single person into many. A handy trick for someone trying to make it seem like there is more opposition or more critics than there really are. Another version of the "some people" vagueness tactic is "everybody says..." or "everybody thinks..."

    Everybody has a name. Every person is a single, identifiable person.

    So, a solution is to just say, "Everybody has a name. Who are these some people? Name one." It is an entirely fair question. If they exist at all, they are targeting you. It is completely fair for you to know who is targeting you, and for you to know who your target should be. (Verbal resolution target, not bullet target.)

    A common response to your question is, "Well, I don't know." A very workable reply is, "Well, if you remember their name, let me know, and I will tell you something very interesting about that person." Then keep quiet. You've planted your hook. Don't say anything more until the other person replies.

    In an OC situation, you could try, "Well, I'm pretty easy to talk to. Tell one of the "some people" I don't bite and they can come speak to me themselves."

    Or, "Tell one of the "some people" I have something very interesting to tell them."

    Of course, you may hear, "They are too nervous to talk to you." You could reply, "Oh, well. I guess they'll just have to see for themselves that I'm not dangerous."

    It may turn out the "some people" is really nobody but the person himself.
    Last edited by Citizen; 07-28-2010 at 12:44 AM.

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    I agree with you, amz. However, I want to go back and be able to OC. If/When someone asks me to cover it up in the future, I want to be able to inform them that I am acting within the policy of the property owner.

    Also, if they have a policy against OC, I will know that I should not return and press the issue, which would force them to ask me to leave.
    Last edited by ShooterMcGavin; 07-28-2010 at 12:44 AM.

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    Part of me would want to say "Are you an employee? No? Have a nice day."

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    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    Well a response that I have used is..."thank you for your opinion" or "I will consider that" There is not much response anyone can say to that and kind of shuts them down. But I would also question who has the problem and offer to discuss it directly with them. If it's just a customer...so what. They are not an owner or manager who can speak on behalf of the company. Be polite, but if you have to just stop talking to them. Some people just have a paranoia and can't be talked to or reasoned with.

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShooterMcGavin View Post
    I agree with you, amz. However, I want to go back and be able to OC. If/When someone asks me to cover it up in the future, I want to be able to inform them that I am acting within the policy of the property owner.

    Also, if they have a policy against OC, I will know that I should not return and press the issue, which would force them to ask me to leave.
    I think the best thing is, not to have your CPL on you and let them know that you dont, and to cover up would make you a criminal, and tell them thanks for their concern. As far as policy, if they do have a policy, the easiest way to find out is by carrying on the premisis. If they have a policy a Hooters staff member will notify you at that time. As far as acting within policy, you are according to State law.
    Last edited by amzbrady; 07-28-2010 at 01:06 AM.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    I think the best thing is, not to have your CPL on you and let them know that you dont, and to cover up would make you a criminal, and tell them thanks for their concern...
    Can't do that if I ride a motorcycle to the place. The law states that a CPL is required when IN a motor vehicle. However, it has never been tested in court whether that applies to a motorcycle or not. I can't afford to be the test case.

  9. #9
    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShooterMcGavin View Post
    Can't do that if I ride a motorcycle to the place. The law states that a CPL is required when IN a motor vehicle. However, it has never been tested in court whether that applies to a motorcycle or not. I can't afford to be the test case.

    Sorry I misunderstood your post. I didnt realize you were on your bike when they asked you to cover up.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Citezen makes some great points.

    Another proven technique among a group of acquaintances. Look at the guy and go "hmmm....interesting" and walk away and go talk to someone else. Don't be rude but pleasant and genuinely curious to there remark but uninterested in any further conversation about it. If they follow you then they have become the aggressor and now would be the time to ask them some questions as to rights, the law and there real interest in the issue.
    Live Free or Die!

  11. #11
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    unless you had an issue with management or an employee, I would be hesitant in contacting Hooters Corp on their policy.

    I wonder if this lady was related to the lady that hassled us at the Pick Quick event?

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    Regular Member Aryk45XD's Avatar
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    I had kids with me today at McDonalds

    So I told him I won't cover up when the manager asked me. He said there are kids here. Pretty ironic, but a lady behind me vouched for me and got pretty loud about it. I was satisfied, since he was. I came back in after eating to drop a few pamphlets off.

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    Why should I be hesitant in contacting Hooter's corp on their OC policy?
    If I politely send the message to the fellow biker "no, I won't cover up and I won't leave" and then they go to the management and request to have me removed; If I have not found out what the Hooter's policy is, the management can feel free to make up their own policy on the spot.

    If I do research the policy of Hooter's regarding OC...
    1) If Hooter's policy is to follow state law, then I would have done my homework and I would know the policy. In that case, I would inform the management that they are operating outside of the company policy and give them proof.
    2) If Hooter's policy is that they do not allow OC, I won't force them to remove me in front of everyone, who would really dislike me for telling them "I don't care how you feel about my gun".

  14. #14
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShooterMcGavin View Post
    Why should I be hesitant in contacting Hooter's corp on their OC policy?
    If I politely send the message to the fellow biker "no, I won't cover up and I won't leave" and then they go to the management and request to have me removed; If I have not found out what the Hooter's policy is, the management can feel free to make up their own policy on the spot.

    If I do research the policy of Hooter's regarding OC...
    1) If Hooter's policy is to follow state law, then I would have done my homework and I would know the policy. In that case, I would inform the management that they are operating outside of the company policy and give them proof.
    2) If Hooter's policy is that they do not allow OC, I won't force them to remove me in front of everyone, who would really dislike me for telling them "I don't care how you feel about my gun".
    Hooters Corp Policy is anti CC & OC.
    This thread: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ort-News/page3

    <snip>
    In areas where concealed weapons are allowed, we do post a sign that says firearms and other weapons are not permitted on the premises. Thankfully, it is a choice we have the freedom to make. We respect those customers who decide not to patronize our business because of this decision.

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Was it a horizontal or vertical style shoulder holster? Some people get nervous when they can see down the barrel as is often the case with a horizontal holster.

    Nevertheless, I think you should have stayed.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    A guy at Starbucks Barkley asked me to cover up I simply said "No" and went about my business.
    He continued to make a scene while I ignored him, he was the one that looked like a fool, the other customers and barista's where chuckling at him. And his daughter was begging him to shut up. Eventually he got it and did. Sometimes that is the best thing to do too.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Just a quick question on a related matter. If one is riding a motorcycle and decides to enter an establisment where firearms are prohibited by law would you store your weapon? My recollection of MC's from when I used to ride is that they don't offer the most secure options. What are people doing today to secure their firearms when they want to go in and "wash the bugs from their teeth"?

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    I'm a Harley rider and I ride a lot. I always carry when I do.

    I never leave my weapon with my bike. It goes where I go.

    First, I don't frequent places that I "know" don't allow firearms. But in the few cases I do, I conceal and enter anyway.

    I don't condone or recommend this, but that's what I do.

    As to the Hooters situation. I would simply say, "No".

    If that doesn't end it, I would leave and not ride with those people again.

    Kryteon

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Needs food service

    I read in the King County Training Bulletin posted on a link here, a training "Scenario" that outlined and clarified the issue.....

    I ride a Road King and this is my take.....and seems to be supported through the Training bulletin "scenario" on OC that references out the code.

    If it is just a bar (alcohol), then you are breaking the law if you enter armed, even concealed. If they also have a food menu and a separated eating area from the bar (restaraunt) in which you are sitting or gathering your clan, then no problem for either CC or Open as long as you use wait staff for bug juice....and they have no corporate policy.

    It just takes a little more trip planning for those Thursday night Taco rides....I wouldn't leave anything in my saddle box either, even though I can lock it.

    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Just a quick question on a related matter. If one is riding a motorcycle and decides to enter an establisment where firearms are prohibited by law would you store your weapon? My recollection of MC's from when I used to ride is that they don't offer the most secure options. What are people doing today to secure their firearms when they want to go in and "wash the bugs from their teeth"?
    Last edited by jt59; 07-28-2010 at 12:12 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    RCW 9.41.300

    (d) That portion of an establishment classified by the state liquor control board as off-limits to persons under twenty-one years of age; or
    Only the part of an establishment that is 21 and over. You will see this sign as the WSLCB says it is required.
    No Firearms
    Firearms Prohibited Signs are required to be posted in each tavern and cocktail lounge (RCW 9.41.300).



    Quote Originally Posted by jt59 View Post
    I read in the King County Training Bulletin posted on a link here, a training "Scenario" that outlined and clarified the issue.....

    I ride a Road King and this is my take.....and seems to be supported through the Training bulletin "scenario" on OC that references out the code.

    If it is just a bar (alcohol), then you are breaking the law if you enter armed, even concealed. If they also have a food menu and a separated eating area from the bar (restaraunt), then no problem for either CC or Open as long as you use wait staff for bug juice....and they have no corporate policy.

    It just takes a little more trip planning for those Thursday night Taco rides....I wouldn't leave anything in my saddle box either, even though I can lock it.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member J_Douglass's Avatar
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    What about you being armed in the regular portion of the restaurant and want to consume a beer with dinner?

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Perfectly fine...

    You could OC in the regular part of a restruant, drink yourself to an oblivion and be totally legal (assuming you are not driving home).

    Personally, when I OC and go out to dinner I refrain from drinking. However, if I am CC I will have a glass of wine with dinner.

    Quote Originally Posted by J_Douglass View Post
    What about you being armed in the regular portion of the restaurant and want to consume a beer with dinner?
    Live Free or Die!

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    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J_Douglass View Post
    What about you being armed in the regular portion of the restaurant and want to consume a beer with dinner?
    Washington State follows British legal tradition, which states that anything that is not proscribed as unlawful is lawful. IMHO, alcohol and guns don't mix but there is no law against it.

    I'm looking up the RCW that covers a CPL and being above the legal limit while carrying. While it takes a judge to do you can lose your CPL.

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Rcw 9.41.098

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.098

    Do you mean this one:

    (1) The superior courts and the courts of limited jurisdiction of the state may order forfeiture of a firearm which is proven to be:


    (e) In the possession of a person who is in any place in which a concealed pistol license is required, and who is under the influence of any drug or under the influence of intoxicating liquor, as defined in chapter 46.61 RCW;

    Since my CPL is not required, I doubt that they could confiscate my firearm.

    Quote Originally Posted by M1Gunr View Post
    Washington State follows British legal tradition, which states that anything that is not proscribed as unlawful is lawful. IMHO, alcohol and guns don't mix but there is no law against it.

    I'm looking up the RCW that covers a CPL and being above the legal limit while carrying. While it takes a judge to do you can lose your CPL.
    Live Free or Die!

  25. #25
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    CW 9.41.098(1)(d) which reads as follows:
    "(1) The superior courts and the courts of limited jurisdiction of the state may order forfeiture of a firearm which is proven to be:
    "(d) Found concealed on a person who is in any place in which a concealed pistol license is required, and who is under the influence of any drug or under the influence of intoxicating liquor, having 0.10 percent or more by weight of alcohol in his blood, as shown by chemical analysis of his breath, blood, or other bodily substance;

    Personally I see that RCW 9.41.270 could also come into play especially if that person were Open Carrying. See section (1)
    (1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.



    Ken Eikenberry, The Attorney General wrote on November 16, 1984, AGO 1984 No. 27 in regard to a letter by Al Williams, State Senator, 32nd District. The Senator asked several questions relating to local gun control. You can read the letter and response here: http://www.atg.wa.gov/AGOOpinions/opinion.aspx?section=archive&id=7660

    The AG's answers:
    (1) The validity of a local ordinance making it either a criminal or civil offense to be in possession of a firearm while under the influence of alcohol or other drugs will not turn on RCW 9.41.290, in the sense that such a local ordinance is, or is not, thereby statutorily preempted; instead, it will depend upon the effect which a particular ordinance has on constitutionally-protected rights.

    (2) A local ordinance providing for the mandatory forfeiture of a firearm in the possession of one who is intoxicated would be within the purview of RCW 9.41.290 and, therefore, would be required to be consistent with its state statutory counterpart (RCW 9.41.098) in order to be legally effective.

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