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Adult Court Services -- Are Firearms Prohibited???

jmelvin

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Jun 12, 2008
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Location
Lynchburg, Virginia, USA
Yes it matters, then this is a county issue and the question of whether this is a state agency or department as skidmark and I were discussing has no bearing on your issue. Your job now is to find out if this is a courthouse. If not then the sign should come down.
 

kenny

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Apr 11, 2007
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Location
Richmond Lynchburg, Virginia, USA
Mailman isn't that the building that also houses the county offices? The Court unit is on the ground floor. I've carried there many time before. Never really looked for a sign, I just know if they have a metal detector I have to disarm.

All Adult Court Services is in most localities is pre-trial services where they work you up before your hearing or sentencing date.

The trend now is to put everything on the other side of the metal detector. The new court houses in Lynchburg and Campbell County are very good examples.
 

Grapeshot

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Valhalla
Yes it matters, then this is a county issue and the question of whether this is a state agency or department as skidmark and I were discussing has no bearing on your issue. Your job now is to find out if this is a courthouse. If not then the sign should come down.

I believe what you are going to find is that this is a state agency.
Look at the link and use the pull down menu on the right.
http://www.fauquiercounty.gov/
 

wylde007

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Jan 23, 2009
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Va Beach, Occupied VA
From the web site:
The mission of the Office of Adult Court Services is to provide criminal justice services to the local courts and community resulting in enhanced public safety, reduced jail overcrowding, and increased accountability of criminal offenders. These services include but are not limited to, probation services, pretrial investigation and supervision services, litter control programs, criminal justice grant administration, staffing of the Fauquier/Rappahannock Community Criminal Justice Board and Board of Supervisor’s Public Safety Committee, and collection and analysis of system data in order to assess the need for new programs and services and the effectiveness of current services.
It "appears" on the face that this is a local/county service unit.
 

skidmark

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Valhalla
jmelvin -

It is abundantly clear that you and I are going to disagree on the extent of the application of 15.2-915. I have no problem whatsoever with that being the case.

All I ask is that you invite me to your sentencing hearing.

As for citations, I am afraid that all I can offer you are examples of how various rulings have failed to cite 15.2-915 as the legal reasoning for their decisions involving state, as opposed to local government, entities. For example: http://www.oag.state.va.us/OPINIONS/2008opns/08-043-Cuccinelli.pdf , and http://www.oag.state.va.us/OPINIONS/2006opns/05-078.pdf .

In the cause of fairness, I now respond by asking you to provide citations that support your contention that 15.2-915 does in fact extend to state agencies rather than being limited to localities and any authority or to a local governmental entity, including a department or agency, but not including any local or regional jail or juvenile detention facility.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w186/vaskidmark/deereatingpopcorn.gif

stay safe.
 

kenny

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Richmond Lynchburg, Virginia, USA
Use to in Circuit Clerk's office before the new security. This is the tan brick building on the river side of court. It has been at least a year or so (I think) since now everyone has to go through metal detectors. Never in general district court where our Buffet friend works.
 

kenny

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When you think about it, Virginia has taken its time when it comes to court room security. Back in the mid 70's a Defendant walked into a Louisa County court room and opened fire on the bench. The shooter ended up being represented by a Richmond area attorney named Doug Wilder.

I am surprised that it has taken all most forty years to get every court house protected.
 

simmonsjoe

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Mattaponi, Virginia, United States
Application is important here.

If he had, he woul have been in violation of 18.2-283.1 http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-283.1 .

Or are you suggesting that 18.2-283.1 applies only to the courtroom?

stay safe.
Many localities choose to only limit access to the actual courtroom itself.

The definition of a courthouse is not found in VA law. Every resource I have found defining Courthouse INCLUDES the offices of local county gov't.

As long as it is in the same building, (and an argument could be made for same complex) I think it can be restricted.

I know, I don't like it either.

Many smaller localities choose to restrict only the actual courtroom. (Good since the building may incorporate much more than just the county offices and courtroom.)
IANAL
 
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Thundar

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Newport News, Virginia, USA
Again skidmark you claim that the courts have determined that 15.2-915 applies only to localities and their agencies while: Ignoring that the statute is clearly more broad in its wording; and providing no court cases where the courts have determined that the statute does not apply to the state. Across this post and in others you waffle between stating that 15.2-915 does not apply to state agencies because: The legislature has no power over agencies operated by the executive branch; and / or the belief that the language of 15.2-915 is applicable only to localities, despite the fact that the language of the code is clearly more broad (Paragraph 3 "... any authority, inlcuding a department or agency).

§ 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by § 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express authorization.

Nothing in this section shall prohibit a locality from adopting workplace rules relating to terms and conditions of employment of the workforce. Nothing in this section shall prohibit a law-enforcement officer, as defined in § 9.1-101 from acting within the scope of his duties.

The provisions of this section applicable to a locality shall also apply to any authority or to a local governmental entity, including a department or agency, but not including any local or regional jail or juvenile detention facility.


Having provided the VA constitutional provision for the legislature having the authority to limit and specify what state agencies and departments do and having pointed out that the language of 15.2-915 states that "any authority, inlcuding a department or agency" is bound to the same restrictions as a locality as described, please do cite why it is you think that 15.2-915 does not apply to state agencies. Court cases or other code citations are perfectly acceptable for the basis of your opinion.

This is exactly the issue that I have had with Chesapeake Hospital Authority. The are chartered by the State of Virginia and are not a local authority. As such they have developed rules which forbit firearms on ALL Chesapeake Hospital Authority Property.

User has a very interesting theory on how to slay this dragon, which goes in a different direction than my ALL means ALL argument.
 

jmelvin

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Lynchburg, Virginia, USA
skidmark I provided my supporting argument from the text of the statute and citing the VA constitutional authority of the GA to impose such limits. I'm unaware of any court cases that would support my understanding, however, as I don't know where to search and am generally unaware of such being discussed in a realm such as here. You quite wrongly assume that I would ignore a posted restriction on carrying within a posted state facility in your attempted humor while maligning my character and intelligence suggesting that I would ask you to come to a sentencing hearing. I do not much appreciate the insult, but seeing as that's your bag, I fully expect it.

If I were to challenge such posting it would be through other means that would not likely result in my arrest and possible incarceration, because not being a retiree with a pension, I must provide for myself and my family by staying out of jail and doing something useful (at least useful enough to someone willing to pay me).
 

jmelvin

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Location
Lynchburg, Virginia, USA
Thundar have you attempted to challenge the Chesapeake Hospital Authority using the statute in court yet?

Would you care to discuss this other means of invalidating CHA's restriction that "user" suggests?

Thanks!
 

skidmark

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Valhalla
Many localities choose to only limit access to the actual courtroom itself.

The definition of a courthouse is not found in VA law. Every resource I have found defining Courthouse INCLUDES the offices of local county gov't.

As long as it is in the same building, (and an argument could be made for same complex) I think it can be restricted.

I know, I don't like it either.

Many smaller localities choose to restrict only the actual courtroom. (Good since the building may incorporate much more than just the county offices and courtroom.)
IANAL

Joe -- and jmelvin also,

please read THE BOARD OF SUPERVISORS OF LEE COUNTY V. EDGAR BACON, COMMISSIONER OF ACCOUNTS OF LEE COUNTY. April 28, 1975. Record No. 740711 which can be found at http://www.virginia1774.org/CourthouseArea.html . This quote is quite instructive regarding what is and is not "the courthouse" and I have found no other cases before either the Court of Appeals or the Supreme Court that would have in any way modified the ruling:
The present case is controlled by our holding in Egerton. Here the undisputed facts show that the courthouse building, as in Egerton, was occupied jointly by the circuit court and various county officials and employees, and the office occupied by the Commissioner was not located in that part of the building appointed for the use and occupancy of the circuit court.

Only that part of the courthouse building necessary for the use and occupancy of the circuit court constituted the courthouse, and the court has control over the assignment of space in such area.

As such, the area occupied by the Clerk of the Circuit Court would be within the perimiter and definition of "a courthouse". Further, if there are no separate restrooms whose use is restricted to employees of the Circuit Court there is a good case for asserting that even those areas are "off limits". That the Sherrif's Department choses not to arrest for carry in those areas does not clearly establish that 18.2-283.1 does not apply to those areas.

I am aware of several other cases that have not been appealed beyond the Circuit Court where the defendant was accused and convicted under 18.2-283.1 of carrying a firearm in some other area of the building. That those defendants were unaware of or otherwise chose not to appeal based on Bacon is information unknown to me.

stay safe.
 

Mailman

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Messages
24
Location
Virginia
Signage update

Saturday I went by the building in question. The 8x11 sign on the door has been taken down. It looks like Ed's postcard worked. I will update the thread if/when a new sign is put up.
 

ProShooter

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
4,663
Location
www.ProactiveShooters.com, Richmond, Va., , USA
Many localities choose to only limit access to the actual courtroom itself.

That is true, but not always accurate.

In Chesterfield, in the main courts building, one must pass through a metal detector and security checkpoint in the basement. That area takes you upstairs to the courts, as well as the Sheriff's Office and Victim/Witness offices on the basement level.
 

simmonsjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2009
Messages
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Location
Mattaponi, Virginia, United States
Reading comprehension fail...

That is true, but not always accurate.

In Chesterfield, in the main courts building, one must pass through a metal detector and security checkpoint in the basement. That area takes you upstairs to the courts, as well as the Sheriff's Office and Victim/Witness offices on the basement level.
Actually it is perfectly accurate. :)
 
Last edited:

ed

Founder's Club Member - Moderator
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Messages
4,841
Location
Loudoun County - Dulles Airport, Virginia, USA
I sent em a postcard...
adultcourtservices.jpg
I have heard word that the sign has now been removed. Can anyone verify and let us know please?

Thanks,

Ed
 
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