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Uncomfortable Question

bigtoe416

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Messages
1,747
Location
Oregon
Sad to say, but in reality, much more good will come from dying an honorable, law abiding (albeit untimely) death than shooting back and living. Besides living in prison isn't living.

I fail to see how allowing a criminal in uniform to execute you would be honorable. I also fail to see how it would be law abiding. You'd be allowing a criminal to commit murder in your presence, the honorable thing to do would be to stop him. The law abiding thing to do would be to stop the crime in progress.

Maybe I'm just not understanding.
 

coolusername2007

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2009
Messages
1,659
Location
Temecula, California, USA
I fail to see how allowing a criminal in uniform to execute you would be honorable. I also fail to see how it would be law abiding. You'd be allowing a criminal to commit murder in your presence, the honorable thing to do would be to stop him. The law abiding thing to do would be to stop the crime in progress.

Maybe I'm just not understanding.

What I meant was that regardless of whether or not you are justified in defending yourself from a criminal with a badge, you will be perceived and judged as a cop killer thug, not an honorable, law abiding citizen. An incident from which absolutely no good will come.

On the other hand, good can come from being wrongly killed. Am I advocating dying a martyr? Absolutely not. I'm just stating a reality that may be somewhat hard to accept.

Would I defend my life if being wrongly and violently attacked by a law enforcement officer? I don't know. I would like to think so, but many factors would come into my decision making. Things like are we isolated without the possibility of witnesses, or are there cameras rolling all around. Is the attacker wearing a uniform or plain clothes? What is the distance between us? Is there an escape route, or am I cornered? And as already mentioned by someone else citizens with badges generally wear bullet proof vests anyway so shooting back may not stop the attack anyway.
 

Gundude

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2009
Messages
1,691
Location
Sandy Eggo County
I was shot at once. I was hunting on posted land without permission. The owner saw me and shot in my direction, I assume to chase me off. So, I put two in his radiator and took out both front tires before I left. I did hope he had a nice walk home.
 

camsoup

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2008
Messages
167
Location
Red Bluff, California, USA
What I meant was that regardless of whether or not you are justified in defending yourself from a criminal with a badge, you will be perceived and judged as a cop killer thug, not an honorable, law abiding citizen. An incident from which absolutely no good will come.

On the other hand, good can come from being wrongly killed. Am I advocating dying a martyr? Absolutely not. I'm just stating a reality that may be somewhat hard to accept.

Would I defend my life if being wrongly and violently attacked by a law enforcement officer? I don't know. I would like to think so, but many factors would come into my decision making. Things like are we isolated without the possibility of witnesses, or are there cameras rolling all around. Is the attacker wearing a uniform or plain clothes? What is the distance between us? Is there an escape route, or am I cornered? And as already mentioned by someone else citizens with badges generally wear bullet proof vests anyway so shooting back may not stop the attack anyway.

The main reason we all carry is for self defense.... to just stand there an let an officer shoot you, just because he is an officer is completely counter intuitive to why why are carrying an unloaded gun in the first place. Whether the threat is a criminal or a rouge officer (shooting at me with no justification) I will protect myself and loved ones just the same when the time comes. If an officer gets nervous and shoots at me while I am complying with his orders, he has crossed the line and I am now being threatened, I then would evoke my right to defend myself. In my eyes, he does not get special treatment from me simply because he has a badge.

Would my chances of being convicted and sent to prison for murder be more than if I was defending myself against a thug? Most likely, but I still have a will to survive, and a right to protect myself from anyone trying to take that from me.
 

coolusername2007

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2009
Messages
1,659
Location
Temecula, California, USA
Give more weight to my first sentence in my first post (#19). It was the "If...then" statement. In reality, this all just a mental exercise. Just listen to Champion's archives on Erik Scott to see what I mean.

ETA: And I didn't say to just stand there and take it...I'm pretty sure I said to survive and evade...I suggested "getting the hell out of Dodge" as being the best option.
 
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Gundude

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2009
Messages
1,691
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Sandy Eggo County
That conception comes from an FBI report that found LEOs were significantly worse shots than your average gangbanger.

Dunno if all the cop reality shows on tv are accurate, but I see them burn a whole mag as fast as possible. It's hard to be accurate doing that. Hurry slowly.
 

Tomas

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2010
Messages
702
Location
University Place, Washington, USA
That conception comes from an FBI report that found LEOs were significantly worse shots than your average gangbanger.

(Somewhat tongue-in-cheek) Perhaps that's because a LEO usually has a defined target to hit, but the gangbanger can call anything he manages to hit the "target"...

Sort of like the old saw about the way to shoot a perfect bullseye: Shoot first, then carefully draw a circle around the resulting hole...
 

Tomas

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2010
Messages
702
Location
University Place, Washington, USA
Dunno if all the cop reality shows on tv are accurate, but I see them burn a whole mag as fast as possible. It's hard to be accurate doing that. Hurry slowly.

Every now and then, though, you see some of them do some really excellent shooting on those shows.

Things like firing out the side window of their patrol car at freeway speeds at a tire on a car they are chasing and taking out that tire in one shot or the one who was fired on by the driver of a car he had stopped, and recovered quickly enough to put most of the magazine load through about a four inch circle in the rear window as the car was rapidly taking off (hitting the driver).

Some can fire extremely well, even under great stress. Others apparently couldn't hit a barn while standing inside it. (LA shootout against armored bank robbers comes to mind - with IIRC 672 rounds expended... All that was needed was two accurate head shots.)

Sadly, with today's high capacity pistols, as opposed to yesterday's wheel guns, there appears to be less concern with a few well placed shots, and more a "spray and pray" attitude in hitting the target(s).

Even with a target at no more than arms length, there is a tendency to empty magazines, as NYC officers did when shooting a man reaching for his ID 41 times at close quarters.

Anyway, just like the general gun-owning public, there are LEOs who are excellent shots and those who are abysmal. HOWEVER, being as it is part of their job description, they should on average be much better than they are IMHO.
 
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sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
(Somewhat tongue-in-cheek) Perhaps that's because a LEO usually has a defined target to hit, but the gangbanger can call anything he manages to hit the "target"...
QUOTE]

Disagree, Gangbangers normally only go after "enemy combatants" or other gangbangers. Killing innocents is bad for their main business of dealling in contraband.

I wish I could find the cite I had from the FBI/DOJ website that 95% of all homicides in the states are basically criminals killing criminals.

The cite CA-Libertarian was referring to was the ratio of "legitimate" shoots between civilians and LEO. Civialians 2% chance of innocent casualty, LEO 11%.

On another note my incident was directly related to OC, I have had several other ones with officers that were not. Thanks for the words of encouragement, because I am stubborn and strongly believe in this right, I have refused to let the local PD intimidate me into "complying" with their wishes.
 
T

truckinkw

Guest
In all actuality your question should be asked. We all want to believe what we would do in that type of scenario. Truth be told that nobody including myself knows how one may react.
Many factors come to play, Location: is there any objects near that can be used for cover. Proximity: How close is the LEO to you.
Time of day: Time of day may affect how a LEO enters the situation and possible witnesses. LEO's frame of mind: Is he too nervous and scared? Is he threatened by a non-LEO carrying?
Is he thinking about his cheating wife?
Is your weapon loaded/unloaded? I myself would like to believe that I would take action for self preservation. But, it all depends on the factors for that situation. Regardless of the possibility of going to prison. Which unfortunately is the highest probability given the badge and uniform. I do have my opinion when it comes to law-enforcement. I've had my run ins over the years. Was stopped, cuffed, detained, and disarmed a few years ago. Thankfully, was released and LEO returned my weapon by placing my S/W under my pickup seat! They didn't want the public to see them handing a weapon to a civilian. While my friend and I were being cuffed the other LEO had his weapon drawn. It is very unnerving having a weapon pointed at your back. It is my opinion that any LEO that shoots at one with their back to him and hands in the air. Is undoubtedly a sissy and by no account be called a man! And by whatever you want to call them. They are a gang; by definition they are more than 3 individuals that have a common interest or goal. The only difference is they are sanctioned, receive your tax dollars, and have the courts taking their side. No department unless there is absolute evidence will NOT take accountability for misconduct. And at the end of the day you are the brunt of their jokes.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
In all actuality your question should be asked. We all want to believe what we would do in that type of scenario. Truth be told that nobody including myself knows how one may react.
Many factors come to play, Location: is there any objects near that can be used for cover. Proximity: How close is the LEO to you.
Time of day: Time of day may affect how a LEO enters the situation and possible witnesses. LEO's frame of mind: Is he too nervous and scared? Is he threatened by a non-LEO carrying?
Is he thinking about his cheating wife?
Is your weapon loaded/unloaded? I myself would like to believe that I would take action for self preservation. But, it all depends on the factors for that situation. Regardless of the possibility of going to prison. Which unfortunately is the highest probability given the badge and uniform. I do have my opinion when it comes to law-enforcement. I've had my run ins over the years. Was stopped, cuffed, detained, and disarmed a few years ago. Thankfully, was released and LEO returned my weapon by placing my S/W under my pickup seat! They didn't want the public to see them handing a weapon to a civilian. While my friend and I were being cuffed the other LEO had his weapon drawn. It is very unnerving having a weapon pointed at your back. It is my opinion that any LEO that shoots at one with their back to him and hands in the air. Is undoubtedly a sissy and by no account be called a man! And by whatever you want to call them. They are a gang; by definition they are more than 3 individuals that have a common interest or goal. The only difference is they are sanctioned, receive your tax dollars, and have the courts taking their side. No department unless there is absolute evidence will NOT take accountability for misconduct. And at the end of the day you are the brunt of their jokes.

Please try to not attack LE in general or categorize the group by a few bad apples.

"(6) NO PERSONAL ATTACKS: While you may disagree strongly with another poster based upon their opinion, we will NOT tolerate any personal attacks or general bashing of groups of people based upon race, religion, sex, or choice of occupation (e.g., being a law enforcement officer). "
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules
 

heliopolissolutions

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2009
Messages
542
Location
, ,
I don't know if he was classifying any and all police officers as such, rather those whose actions are decidedly improper.
But its certainly not an uncommon sentiment, at least not here, with the way we're treated.
 

DCKilla

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2010
Messages
523
Location
Wet Side, WA
Excuse me, but Truckinkw was giving a definition. There were no personal attacks of any kind in the section you highlighted.

Please try to not attack LE in general or categorize the group by a few bad apples.

"(6) NO PERSONAL ATTACKS: While you may disagree strongly with another poster based upon their opinion, we will NOT tolerate any personal attacks or general bashing of groups of people based upon race, religion, sex, or choice of occupation (e.g., being a law enforcement officer). "
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules
 
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