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Thread: I am confused by BATFE federal law

  1. #1
    Regular Member Colt 1911's Avatar
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    I am confused by BATFE federal law

    Ok I found this post on another forum and this guy says he a ffl and knows what hes talking about> (the question is being asked by a guy lives in Indianapolis)




    If you, as a person under 21 is found carrying handgun ammunition in your legal handgun, according to Federal law, BATFE, you can be prosecuted.
    I am sure you will tell me everyone does it. That does not make it legal. Internet sales of ammo happen to be a big problem for BATFE because it is mainly unregulated.
    A license is not required for a dealer to engage in the sale of ammunition only. [18 U.S.C. 922 (a)(1)(B)]

    Here are a couple of BATFE numbers you can call if you would like to hear it from the source.

    Indianapolis - Industry Operations: 317-248-4002 (your area)
    Kansas City - Industry Operations: 816-559-0730
    St. Louis - Industry Operations: 314-269-2250

    Don't call a field office, their job is to catch BG's.

    Please give them a call and report back to us what they tell you. I'm not trying to bust your chops.
    I know you want to be a law abiding citizen, honest.

    I'm not sure how they handle it where you work. Maybe they consider it supervised.


    So I can not carry then?

    also this could relate: http://nashvillecitypaper.com/conten...e-firearms-act

    So does this federal law trump our state?

    I do not want to get in trouble because some governmet agent is infringing on state rights!
    Last edited by Colt 1911; 07-28-2010 at 11:51 PM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    I won't bother with this. if you want to carry a hammer, that's your perogative. There are so many 18-20 year old Open Carrying Virginians its not even funny...

    Stop with the inane dumb@$$ questions already.
    Last edited by MSC 45ACP; 07-28-2010 at 11:57 PM. Reason: After posting it appears "Virginians" is posted twice...
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

  3. #3
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSC 45ACP View Post
    I won't bother with this. if you want to carry a hammer, that's your perogative. There are so many 18-20 year old Open Carrying Virginians its not even funny...

    Stop with the inane dumb@$$ questions already.
    WEIRD STUFF HERE... When I see my comments in "edit" mode, its correct, but after "publishing", it doubled a word. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, Over?
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

  4. #4
    Regular Member Colt 1911's Avatar
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    No this is not a dumb question I need to know the truth. I am confussed though, batfe is federal law does this apply? or is this guy some loon. Here is his other post:

    oh I forgot his other qoute " Originally Posted by SIGP250
    If you, as a person under 21 is found carrying handgun ammunition in your legal handgun, according to Federal law, BATFE, you can be prosecuted."


    " Originally Posted by DaveH
    Not intending to hijack the thread, but this latest exchange got my curiosity up.

    Did I miss something in this thread?

    Are you talking about a “juvenile” [a person who is less than 18 years of age] or someone 18-21?

    Citation of law, please.

    Inquiring minds want to know how it is legal to own a handgun -- yet illegal to own ammunition for it?

    I am aware of Title 27: Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms PART 478—COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION Subpart F—Conduct of Business § 478.99 Certain prohibited sales or deliveries (b)

    which applies to the dealer.

    But where is the statute re: simple possession of ammunition by an individual 18-21?

    FWIIW



    does not appear to cover ammunition that is suitable for use in a both a handgun and long gun and is talking about a "juvenile" and tends to address both the firearm and ammunition with the same restrictions.

    IANAL and one of the problems with researching the law is there is always the possibility that there is a statute or court case, which you haven't read or forgot about. So, I'd love some references."

    Now the guy takes over and talks:


    "I beg you pardon? I spoke to my region's BATFE office. No I am not talking about a juvenile. Call the BATFE KC IO and tell me what they tell you.
    I'm an FFL. I know my part of the law. I asked about the under 21 old buyer. 816-559-0730 "
    Last edited by Colt 1911; 07-29-2010 at 12:12 AM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    I honestly don't give a chit about what goes on in another state, nor am I concerned about my 19 year old Open Carrying First-born Daughter being arrested for carrying bullets. She's been carrying since her 18th birthday (Many on the board attended the OC Dinner where she carried for the first time).

    In VIRGINIA, if you are UNDER 21, you CAN NOT buy any ammunition that is manufactured for a pistol.
    Even if you tell them you only have a .22 rifle, they may not even sell it to you at WalMart. If COULD be shot in any number of .22 cal pistols. They MIGHT even do the same thing for .410 ammo now that the Taurus Judge has become increasingly popular.

    BATFE doesn't have enough agents to even BOTHER with something so stupid as this... They are ALL chasing the gunrunners bringing guns stolen from southern states back to DC, NYC and Chicago (where guns are mostly illegal) where gang-bangers can shoot each other at their leisure. The remaining field agents are chasing the very FEW "Bad Apples" that have FFL's.

    P.S. I'm retired from DHS and called a good friend & retired BATFE Supervisory Agent (assimilated military rank of Colonel) before I posted this.

    ENOUGH OF THE SILLINESS FROM OTHER STATES AND INANE THINGS, PLEASE!
    If you have an HONEST question, please ask (after you've already used the search function).

    P.P.S. Did you ever contact ED about OC CARDS after you sent me TWO PM's about the same subject?
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Regular Member Colt 1911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSC 45ACP View Post
    I honestly don't give a chit about what goes on in another state, nor am I concerned about my 19 year old Open Carrying First-born Daughter being arrested for carrying bullets. She's been carrying since her 18th birthday (Many on the board attended the OC Dinner where she carried for the first time).

    In VIRGINIA, if you are UNDER 21, you CAN NOT buy any ammunition that is manufactured for a pistol.
    Even if you tell them you only have a .22 rifle, they may not even sell it to you at WalMart. If COULD be shot in any number of .22 cal pistols. They MIGHT even do the same thing for .410 ammo now that the Taurus Judge has become increasingly popular.

    BATFE doesn't have enough agents to even BOTHER with something so stupid as this... They are ALL chasing the gunrunners bringing guns stolen from southern states back to DC, NYC and Chicago (where guns are mostly illegal) where gang-bangers can shoot each other at their leisure. The remaining field agents are chasing the very FEW "Bad Apples" that have FFL's.

    P.S. I'm retired from DHS and called a good friend & retired BATFE Supervisory Agent (assimilated military rank of Colonel) before I posted this.

    ENOUGH OF THE SILLINESS FROM OTHER STATES AND INANE THINGS, PLEASE!
    If you have an HONEST question, please ask (after you've already used the search function).

    P.P.S. Did you ever contact ED about OC CARDS after you sent me TWO PM's about the same subject?

    I know its another state but its the BATFE that are like Goverment agent, dont they have jurisdiction over all states because they are FEDERAL. Can't you get in trouble though? if batfe found out?(EXAMPLE: cop pulls you over, takes gun calls hq ask if OC is legal then finds out batfe law?)

    No I am not asking silly questions these are real questions...



    Yes I know I can not buy handgun ammo till 21 federal law.
    Yes I contacted Ed.
    Last edited by Colt 1911; 07-29-2010 at 12:27 AM.

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    Regular Member Walt_Kowalski's Avatar
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    Last edited by Walt_Kowalski; 07-29-2010 at 10:28 AM.
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    For starters, you can cut out the 'super-size' of some text.

    For after that, go research the federal statute, and cite (with a link) the portion that you feel is applicable, so it can be rationally discussed.

    THEN step back for a second, and do not simply believe someone who says "I am an ffl, so I know..." If they DO know, then ask THEM to cite the statute they believe is relevant, and discuss it rationally with them. If the refuse to either cite the statute or discuss it rationally with you, move on and find a more authoritative source of information.

    The BEST way to find out, is to find out for yourself.


    Quote Originally Posted by Colt 1911 View Post
    I know its another state but its the BATFE that are like Goverment agent, dont they have jurisdiction over all states because they are FEDERAL. Can't you get in trouble though? if batfe found out?(EXAMPLE: cop pulls you over, takes gun calls hq ask if OC is legal then finds out batfe law?)

    No I am not asking silly questions these are real questions...



    Yes I know I can not buy handgun ammo till 21 federal law.
    Yes I contacted Ed.
    Last edited by wrightme; 07-29-2010 at 12:34 AM.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member Colt 1911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    For starters, you can cut out the 'super-size' of some text.

    For after that, go research the federal statute, and cite (with a link) the portion that you feel is applicable, so it can be rationally discussed.

    THEN step back for a second, and do not simple believe someone who says "I am an ffl, so I know..."

    Find out for yourself.
    I was asking because I thought you guys know? Real questions nothing stupid or silly and everyone is posting silly pictures and I have a real question. Does batfe say no handgun ammo allowed to 21years or younger while in a handgun while OC. ( I know its another state but Batfe is Federal)
    Last edited by Colt 1911; 07-29-2010 at 12:33 AM.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Colt 1911 View Post
    I was asking because I thought you guys know? Real questions nothing stupid or silly and everyone is posting silly pictures and I have a real question. Does batfe say no handgun ammo allowed to 21years or younger while in a handgun while OC. ( I know its another state but Batfe is Federal)
    It wasn't a silly picture. You make my head hurt.
    What did I tell you? Know the law!
    I was an FFL.
    The answer is. You can't buy it in a store. You can have it in your possession.

    Look up the law! Read the law! Then ask if you don't understand it.

    Don't get your legal knowledge from internet forums.

    This was posted by an FFL. He's an idiot. I said bad things to him! so bad, i had to go to church instead of going fishing!

    this is a note for all
    I am a ffl dealer and have done a few transfers for some in the past. That stopped today .
    I got a gun from a pawnshop with NO KEY . he is not allowed to send with NO key[if equiped]. The guy sent him the money and I have the gun. so who is out the money and gun?
    This is the last one I will do but have nice gun to play with

    This was posted on the internet:
    An hour later, the little boy died. Come to find out, when returning to Burger King to see if there were red ants in the play area, in case the little boy had an allergic reaction. Burger King employees and herself discovered that there was a family of baby rattlesnakes living underneath the balls in the ball-pit area. She has since found out that this happens more frequently than not. The snakes will crawl into the ball pit because it is dark and warm in there.

    and this:
    A shopper in a department store is handling a coat, blanket, rug, or mattress (etc.), suddenly feels a sharp pain, and collapses. It turns out she was bitten by a snake hiding in the merchandise.

    Read the law!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colt 1911 View Post
    I was asking because I thought you guys know? Real questions nothing stupid or silly and everyone is posting silly pictures and I have a real question. Does batfe say no handgun ammo allowed to 21years or younger while in a handgun while OC. ( I know its another state but Batfe is Federal)
    NO. If your so-called ffl contact disagrees, I mentioned how you should deal with it.

    If he is referring to the following:
    (b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
    (1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;
    that tells the ffl that HE (as a licensed whatever) cannot sell or transfer yadayadayada......
    It does not tell ME that I cannot do the same. I am not a licensed yadayada....
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

  13. #13
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    {inserting CD-ROM entitled ATF PUBLICATION 5300.5}

    Looking now...

    FOUND:

    THE GUN CONTROL ACT OF 1968
    TITLE 18, UNITED STATE CODE, CHAPTER 44

    (b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed
    importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed
    dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
    (1) any firearm or ammunition to any
    individual who the licensee knows or
    has reasonable cause to believe is less
    than eighteen years of age, and, if the
    firearm or ammunition is other than a
    shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a
    shotgun or rifle, to any individual who
    the licensee knows or has reasonable
    cause to believe is less than twenty-one
    years of age;
    (2) any firearm to any person in any
    State where the purchase or possession
    by such person of such firearm
    would be in violation of any State law or
    any published ordinance applicable at
    the place of sale, delivery or other disposition,
    unless the licensee knows or
    has reasonable cause to believe that
    the purchase or possession would not
    be in violation of such State law or such
    published ordinance;

    IN OTHER WORDS, A DEALER CANNOT SELL AMMO TO YOU. SOMEONE ELSE HAD TO BUY IT FOR YOU.

    Furthermore...

    (x) (1) It shall be unlawful for a person to
    sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a
    person who the transferor knows or has
    reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile—
    (A) a handgun; or
    (B) ammunition that is suitable for
    use only in a handgun.
    (2) It shall be unlawful for any person
    who is a juvenile to knowingly possess—
    (A) a handgun; or
    (B) ammunition that is suitable for
    use only in a handgun.
    (3) This subsection does not apply
    to—
    (A) a temporary transfer of a
    handgun or ammunition to a juvenile
    or to the possession or use of a
    handgun or ammunition by a juvenile
    if the handgun and ammunition are
    possessed and used by the juvenile—
    (i) in the course of employment,
    in the course of ranching or farming
    related to activities at the residence
    of the juvenile (or on
    property used for ranching or farming
    at which the juvenile, with the
    permission of the property owner
    or lessee, is performing activities
    related to the operation of the farm
    or ranch), target practice, hunting,
    or a course of instruction in the
    safe and lawful use of a handgun;
    (ii) with the prior written consent
    of the juvenile's parent or guardian
    who is not prohibited by Federal,
    State, or local law from possessing
    a firearm, except—
    (I) during transportation by the
    juvenile of an unloaded handgun
    in a locked container directly
    from the place of transfer to a
    place at which an activity described
    in clause (i) is to take
    place and transportation by the
    juvenile of that handgun,
    unloaded and in a locked container,
    directly from the place at
    which such an activity took place
    to the transferor; or
    (II) with respect to ranching or
    farming activities as described in
    clause (i), a juvenile may possess
    and use a handgun or
    ammunition with the prior written
    approval of the juvenile's parent
    or legal guardian and at the direction
    of an adult who is not
    prohibited by Federal, State or
    local law from possessing a firearm;
    (iii) the juvenile has the prior
    written consent in the juvenile's
    possession at all times when a
    handgun is in the possession of
    the juvenile; and
    (iv) in accordance with State
    and local law;
    (B) a juvenile who is a member of
    the Armed Forces of the United
    States or the National Guard who
    possesses or is armed with a handgun
    in the line of duty;
    (C) a transfer by inheritance of title
    (but not possession) of a handgun or
    ammunition to a juvenile; or
    (D) the possession of a handgun
    or ammunition by a juvenile taken in
    defense of the juvenile or other persons
    against an intruder into the
    residence of the juvenile or a residence
    in which the juvenile is an invited
    guest.
    (4) A handgun or ammunition, the
    possession of which is transferred to a
    juvenile in circumstances in which the
    transferor is not in violation of this subsection
    shall not be subject to permanent
    confiscation by the Government if
    its possession by the juvenile subsequently
    becomes unlawful because of
    the conduct of the juvenile, but shall be
    returned to the lawful owner when such
    handgun or ammunition is no longer required
    by the Government for the purposes
    of investigation or prosecution.
    (5) For purposes of this subsection,
    the term "juvenile" means a person
    who is less than 18 years of age.
    Last edited by MSC 45ACP; 07-29-2010 at 02:09 AM.
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    It wasn't a silly picture. You make my head hurt.
    What did I tell you? Know the law!
    I was an FFL.
    The answer is. You can't buy it in a store. You can have it in your possession.

    Look up the law! Read the law! Then ask if you don't understand it.

    Don't get your legal knowledge from internet forums.

    This was posted by an FFL. He's an idiot. I said bad things to him! so bad, i had to go to church instead of going fishing!

    this is a note for all
    I am a ffl dealer and have done a few transfers for some in the past. That stopped today .
    I got a gun from a pawnshop with NO KEY . he is not allowed to send with NO key[if equiped]. The guy sent him the money and I have the gun. so who is out the money and gun?
    This is the last one I will do but have nice gun to play with

    This was posted on the internet:
    An hour later, the little boy died. Come to find out, when returning to Burger King to see if there were red ants in the play area, in case the little boy had an allergic reaction. Burger King employees and herself discovered that there was a family of baby rattlesnakes living underneath the balls in the ball-pit area. She has since found out that this happens more frequently than not. The snakes will crawl into the ball pit because it is dark and warm in there.

    and this:
    A shopper in a department store is handling a coat, blanket, rug, or mattress (etc.), suddenly feels a sharp pain, and collapses. It turns out she was bitten by a snake hiding in the merchandise.

    Read the law!
    Those mcd ball pits also harbor the deadly used heroin hypos. I know, because the internet told me so... Or was it an email?
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

  15. #15
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    In other words, your friends and boneheads from another state are more fullofshit than a christmas turkey!

    Have a nice day!!!
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

  16. #16
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    Colt1911,

    Prior to this thread, you have already been recommended against, cautioned against, etc. accepting the law from others, and to read the law itself for yourself.

    I would not even accept the word of a BATFE agent who showed me his badge and credentials. He is not the correct source of the law. The correct source of the law is the statute or ordinance itself, the text of the regulation, or a court opinion. Please memorize and apply that.

    Even on this website, if someone says, "such and such is the law", he is required to name the actual statute, ordinance, regulation, or court opinion. Because those are the proper and reliable sources of law.

    In your OP in this thread, you completely violated the advice I gave you by PM. Look for yourself, or if you cannot find it yourself, then ask where to look.

    We are not your personal research assistants nor your secretaries. The problem is not that you have questions. The problem is that you are not taking responsibility to find your own answers before wanting us to do your research for you.

    So,

    1) Don't ask anybody--cops, BATFE, park rangers--what the law is. The only person it is relatively safe to ask is your lawyer.

    2) Read the law for yourself. You are the one going to jail if someone else tells it to you sideways. If you need help finding the law, feel free to ask where to look, meaning if you have already looked for it yourself and can't find it, then ask for an internet resource where you can read the law for yourself. If, after reading the law, you are not sure you understand, or want to check your understanding, then feel free to ask us.
    Last edited by Citizen; 07-29-2010 at 01:33 AM.

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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by MSC 45ACP View Post
    Stop with the inane dumb@$$ questions already.
    This helps:


  18. #18
    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    It's so funny.

    Quote Originally Posted by Curtis View Post
    This helps:

    Only person I've ignored is heliopolisolutions or whatever his name is. I did that because he is a complete and intentional trolling and instigating ass.

    Colt 1911 may be the second person I ingore. This time it will be due to stupidity. I almost feel bad doing it, like I'll be picking on a special person.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
    G19 Gen 4; Bersa Thunder 380; Sig Sauer P238; Kel-Tec su-16c

  19. #19
    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    I got over it.

    Bad feeling passed. He is ignored.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
    G19 Gen 4; Bersa Thunder 380; Sig Sauer P238; Kel-Tec su-16c

  20. #20
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Curtis, you and Simmonsjoe crackmethefluck up!

    I may look for that ignore feature...
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

  21. #21
    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colt 1911 View Post
    Here are a couple of BATFE numbers you can call if you would like to hear it from the source.
    My phone call to the ATF a while back resulted in them telling me I could not possess a handgun under 21 in Virginia... big help that was, and very wrong. Luckily I already knew it was legal... Normally I'd say don't ask police for legal advice but the ATF should know better.
    Last edited by t33j; 07-29-2010 at 07:15 AM.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

  22. #22
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by t33j View Post
    My phone call to the ATF a while back resulted in them telling me I could not possess a handgun under 21 in Virginia... big help that was, and very wrong. Luckily I already knew it was legal... Normally I'd say don't ask police for legal advice but the ATF should know better.
    I have generally tried to avoid this conversation for obvious reasons (I wish to maintain my sanity, maybe???). However, your post here begs a question from me if you don't mind.

    Let's suppose Sheila Wanna-be-hero-ATF-agent, the person who answered your question, happens to encounter a youngster in our fair state openly carrying a firearm and said young person is quite obviously under 21. With her misguided knowledge, do you think she might try to do something and does she even have the authority to do it here in Virginia?

    Honest question... really.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  23. #23
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    "Youth Handgun Safety Act"

    Minimum age to possess handguns and handgun ammunition is 18.


    The ONLY thing with handguns that federal law requires you to be 21, is actually purchasing one from an FFL, or purchasing handgun ammunition from an FFL.


    Disregard what BATF says, or anyone else, other than an actual attorney who are the only people who can provide legal advice. Read the law yourself, it doesn't lie, or mislead.

  24. #24
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    First, a response to the basic question: The United States has the authority to regulate interstate commerce. So anything having to do with the transfer of possession or title to a firearm is fair game for them. But issues of simple possession, use, and transportation within one state by a resident of that state is a matter of state law. And, in Virginia you have to be eighteen to be in unsupervised possession of a handgun. Keep in mind that Maryland is a foreign state with an entirely different legal system, and when you cross borders, the rules change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Colt1911, ...I would not even accept the word of a BATFE agent who showed me his badge and credentials. He is not the correct source of the law. The correct source of the law is the statute or ordinance itself, the text of the regulation, or a court opinion. Please memorize and apply that.
    ...
    We are not your personal research assistants nor your secretaries. The problem is not that you have questions. The problem is that you are not taking responsibility to find your own answers before wanting us to do your research for you.

    So,

    1) Don't ask anybody--cops, BATFE, park rangers--what the law is. The only person it is relatively safe to ask is your lawyer.

    2) Read the law for yourself. You are the one going to jail if someone else tells it to you sideways. If you need help finding the law, feel free to ask where to look, meaning if you have already looked for it yourself and can't find it, then ask for an internet resource where you can read the law for yourself. If, after reading the law, you are not sure you understand, or want to check your understanding, then feel free to ask us.
    1. I'd say (and this applies to "law enforcement officers" generally) especially not to rely on what they tell you the law is. Unless they're attorneys licensed in the state in which you're talking to them, it's illegal for them to give you legal advice, anyway ( a class one misdemeanor); and if they tell you wrong, you could sue them civilly for legal malpractice (you don't have to be a lawyer to give bad legal advice). Nevertheless, they often do make pronouncements about what the law is, but this is usually hokum for which the technical legal term is, "dust in the eyes." They will tell you what they want you to believe the law is, hoping that you'll act on it. It's hogwash or often outright lies.

    2. I do function as a "research assistant", and will be happy to research any legal issue you like and write a formal memorandum of law on the subject. But that's work and I do charge for it, though at about half what I charge to appear in court. (Keep in mind that I'm only licensed in Virginia. I can and do research the laws of other states, but cannot give legal advice regarding foreign laws.) Oh, and by the way, I talk off the top of my head on web forums, and I don't supply cites to authority unless I happen to remember them. If someone wants to hire me to look 'em up, I'll be happy to do so. And, in such an event, I'll also tell you if I was wrong when I was spouting off to begin with.

    3. It is a good idea to read the law for yourself; but there's a reason that it takes three to five years of law school to learn how to do that. Although the law is supposed to be interpreted according to the "plain meaning rule", it is not. And in Virginia, you have to be familiar with the common law of England as it was in 1607 to understand the context within which the code of Virginia and judicial opinions are taking place. It's all a vast, interlocking web of complexities and technical language. Here's a couple of examples. (a) What's the basic law of the use of a highway, commonly called, "right of way"? Answer: first come, first served. Where is that in the Code? BZZZT, thank you for playing! It ain't there! It's common law, going back to when the Romans first built roads in England almost two thousand years ago. Everything you read in the code (e.g., the person on the right has the right of way when two vehicles approach the intersection at about the same time) is an exception to the basic rule. And, (b) What's a "signature"? Most folks think "signature" and "autograph" are pretty much the same thing. Error! A signature does not have to be handwritten, nor a name. A signature is "any sign or symbol used or adopted with the present intention to authenticate a writing." More common law, though it has been codified in the Uniform Commercial Code. An "autograph", on the other hand, has no authentication significance, but must be one's own name in one's own handwriting. So, in the Nineteenth Century, a guy in N.C. agreed to buy land in N.Y. and sent the owner a telegram, the court found that his act of causing his name to be transmitted in Morse code for subsequent printing constituted a "signature". (First instance I could find of an "electronic signature" when I was researching that stuff for the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe, back in the early '80's.)

    Point is, when you're reading a statute or a court opinion that uses the word, "signature", you have to be able to recognize that this is not an English word of common parlance, but a technical term in "legalese" having a special meaning in law. Consider the word, "gun", and how that's different from, "firearm"...
    Last edited by user; 07-29-2010 at 08:49 AM.

  25. #25
    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Let's suppose Sheila Wanna-be-hero-ATF-agent, the person who answered your question, happens to encounter a youngster in our fair state openly carrying a firearm and said young person is quite obviously under 21. With her misguided knowledge, do you think she might try to do something and does she even have the authority to do it here in Virginia?

    Honest question... really.
    The lady who answered my call couldn’t “answer” my question herself. She had to ask her manager/supervisor to give me her answer.
    We know some regular cops (try to) do things they don't have authority to do. Do we know anything that would indicate that federal agents are different? (cough TSA)

    I don’t have a straightforward answer to your question. My guess would be that because the ATF deals with federal regs, they should only be concerned with underage purchase (not possession). There is more than one way someone under 21 could obtain a handgun legally so they’d have quite a time establishing that it was obtained illegally by observing someone under 21 simply possessing one.


    ...Well thanks User
    Last edited by t33j; 07-29-2010 at 08:55 AM.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis

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