I am confused by BATFE federal law

Ok I found this post on another forum and this guy says he a ffl and knows what hes talking about> (the question is being asked by a guy lives in Indianapolis)




If you, as a person under 21 is found carrying handgun ammunition in your legal handgun, according to Federal law, BATFE, you can be prosecuted.
I am sure you will tell me everyone does it. That does not make it legal. Internet sales of ammo happen to be a big problem for BATFE because it is mainly unregulated.
A license is not required for a dealer to engage in the sale of ammunition only. [18 U.S.C. 922 (a)(1)(B)]

Here are a couple of BATFE numbers you can call if you would like to hear it from the source.

Indianapolis - Industry Operations: 317-248-4002 (your area)
Kansas City - Industry Operations: 816-559-0730
St. Louis - Industry Operations: 314-269-2250

Don't call a field office, their job is to catch BG's.

Please give them a call and report back to us what they tell you. I'm not trying to bust your chops.
I know you want to be a law abiding citizen, honest.

I'm not sure how they handle it where you work. Maybe they consider it supervised.


So I can not carry then?

also this could relate: http://nashvillecitypaper.com/content/city-news/atf-says-federal-law-trumps-state-firearms-act

So does this federal law trump our state?

I do not want to get in trouble because some governmet agent is infringing on state rights! :banghead::banghead:

I won't bother with this. if you want to carry a hammer, that's your perogative. There are so many 18-20 year old Open Carrying Virginians its not even funny...

Stop with the inane dumb@$$ questions already.

MSC 45ACP said:

I won't bother with this. if you want to carry a hammer, that's your perogative. There are so many 18-20 year old Open Carrying Virginians its not even funny...

Stop with the inane dumb@$$ questions already.

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WEIRD STUFF HERE... When I see my comments in "edit" mode, its correct, but after "publishing", it doubled a word. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, Over?

No this is not a dumb question I need to know the truth. I am confussed though, batfe is federal law does this apply? or is this guy some loon. Here is his other post:

oh I forgot his other qoute " Originally Posted by SIGP250
If you, as a person under 21 is found carrying handgun ammunition in your legal handgun, according to Federal law, BATFE, you can be prosecuted."


" Originally Posted by DaveH
Not intending to hijack the thread, but this latest exchange got my curiosity up.

Did I miss something in this thread?

Are you talking about a “juvenile” [a person who is less than 18 years of age] or someone 18-21?

Citation of law, please.

Inquiring minds want to know how it is legal to own a handgun -- yet illegal to own ammunition for it?

I am aware of Title 27: Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms PART 478—COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION Subpart F—Conduct of Business § 478.99 Certain prohibited sales or deliveries (b)

which applies to the dealer.

But where is the statute re: simple possession of ammunition by an individual 18-21?

FWIIW



does not appear to cover ammunition that is suitable for use in a both a handgun and long gun and is talking about a "juvenile" and tends to address both the firearm and ammunition with the same restrictions.

IANAL and one of the problems with researching the law is there is always the possibility that there is a statute or court case, which you haven't read or forgot about. So, I'd love some references."

Now the guy takes over and talks:


"I beg you pardon? I spoke to my region's BATFE office. No I am not talking about a juvenile. Call the BATFE KC IO and tell me what they tell you.
I'm an FFL. I know my part of the law. I asked about the under 21 old buyer. 816-559-0730 "

I honestly don't give a chit about what goes on in another state, nor am I concerned about my 19 year old Open Carrying First-born Daughter being arrested for carrying bullets. She's been carrying since her 18th birthday (Many on the board attended the OC Dinner where she carried for the first time).

In VIRGINIA, if you are UNDER 21, you CAN NOT buy any ammunition that is manufactured for a pistol.
Even if you tell them you only have a .22 rifle, they may not even sell it to you at WalMart. If COULD be shot in any number of .22 cal pistols. They MIGHT even do the same thing for .410 ammo now that the Taurus Judge has become increasingly popular.

BATFE doesn't have enough agents to even BOTHER with something so stupid as this... They are ALL chasing the gunrunners bringing guns stolen from southern states back to DC, NYC and Chicago (where guns are mostly illegal) where gang-bangers can shoot each other at their leisure. The remaining field agents are chasing the very FEW "Bad Apples" that have FFL's.

P.S. I'm retired from DHS and called a good friend & retired BATFE Supervisory Agent (assimilated military rank of Colonel) before I posted this.

ENOUGH OF THE SILLINESS FROM OTHER STATES AND INANE THINGS, PLEASE!
If you have an HONEST question, please ask (after you've already used the search function).

P.P.S. Did you ever contact ED about OC CARDS after you sent me TWO PM's about the same subject?

MSC 45ACP said:

I honestly don't give a chit about what goes on in another state, nor am I concerned about my 19 year old Open Carrying First-born Daughter being arrested for carrying bullets. She's been carrying since her 18th birthday (Many on the board attended the OC Dinner where she carried for the first time).

In VIRGINIA, if you are UNDER 21, you CAN NOT buy any ammunition that is manufactured for a pistol.
Even if you tell them you only have a .22 rifle, they may not even sell it to you at WalMart. If COULD be shot in any number of .22 cal pistols. They MIGHT even do the same thing for .410 ammo now that the Taurus Judge has become increasingly popular.

BATFE doesn't have enough agents to even BOTHER with something so stupid as this... They are ALL chasing the gunrunners bringing guns stolen from southern states back to DC, NYC and Chicago (where guns are mostly illegal) where gang-bangers can shoot each other at their leisure. The remaining field agents are chasing the very FEW "Bad Apples" that have FFL's.

P.S. I'm retired from DHS and called a good friend & retired BATFE Supervisory Agent (assimilated military rank of Colonel) before I posted this.

ENOUGH OF THE SILLINESS FROM OTHER STATES AND INANE THINGS, PLEASE!
If you have an HONEST question, please ask (after you've already used the search function).

P.P.S. Did you ever contact ED about OC CARDS after you sent me TWO PM's about the same subject?

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I know its another state but its the BATFE that are like Goverment agent, dont they have jurisdiction over all states because they are FEDERAL. Can't you get in trouble though? if batfe found out?(EXAMPLE: cop pulls you over, takes gun calls hq ask if OC is legal then finds out batfe law?)

No I am not asking silly questions these are real questions...



Yes I know I can not buy handgun ammo till 21 federal law.
Yes I contacted Ed.

For starters, you can cut out the 'super-size' of some text.

For after that, go research the federal statute, and cite (with a link) the portion that you feel is applicable, so it can be rationally discussed.

THEN step back for a second, and do not simply believe someone who says "I am an ffl, so I know..." If they DO know, then ask THEM to cite the statute they believe is relevant, and discuss it rationally with them. If the refuse to either cite the statute or discuss it rationally with you, move on and find a more authoritative source of information.

The BEST way to find out, is to find out for yourself.

Colt 1911 said:

I know its another state but its the BATFE that are like Goverment agent, dont they have jurisdiction over all states because they are FEDERAL. Can't you get in trouble though? if batfe found out?(EXAMPLE: cop pulls you over, takes gun calls hq ask if OC is legal then finds out batfe law?)

No I am not asking silly questions these are real questions...



Yes I know I can not buy handgun ammo till 21 federal law.
Yes I contacted Ed.

Click to expand...

wrightme said:

For starters, you can cut out the 'super-size' of some text.

For after that, go research the federal statute, and cite (with a link) the portion that you feel is applicable, so it can be rationally discussed.

THEN step back for a second, and do not simple believe someone who says "I am an ffl, so I know..."

Find out for yourself.

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I was asking because I thought you guys know? Real questions nothing stupid or silly and everyone is posting silly pictures and I have a real question. Does batfe say no handgun ammo allowed to 21years or younger while in a handgun while OC. ( I know its another state but Batfe is Federal)

Colt 1911 said:

I was asking because I thought you guys know? Real questions nothing stupid or silly and everyone is posting silly pictures and I have a real question. Does batfe say no handgun ammo allowed to 21years or younger while in a handgun while OC. ( I know its another state but Batfe is Federal)

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It wasn't a silly picture. You make my head hurt.
What did I tell you? Know the law!
I was an FFL.
The answer is. You can't buy it in a store. You can have it in your possession.

Look up the law! Read the law! Then ask if you don't understand it.

Don't get your legal knowledge from internet forums.

This was posted by an FFL. He's an idiot. I said bad things to him! so bad, i had to go to church instead of going fishing!

this is a note for all
I am a ffl dealer and have done a few transfers for some in the past. That stopped today .
I got a gun from a pawnshop with NO KEY . he is not allowed to send with NO key[if equiped]. The guy sent him the money and I have the gun. so who is out the money and gun?
This is the last one I will do but have nice gun to play with

This was posted on the internet:
An hour later, the little boy died. Come to find out, when returning to Burger King to see if there were red ants in the play area, in case the little boy had an allergic reaction. Burger King employees and herself discovered that there was a family of baby rattlesnakes living underneath the balls in the ball-pit area. She has since found out that this happens more frequently than not. The snakes will crawl into the ball pit because it is dark and warm in there.

and this:
A shopper in a department store is handling a coat, blanket, rug, or mattress (etc.), suddenly feels a sharp pain, and collapses. It turns out she was bitten by a snake hiding in the merchandise.

Read the law!

Colt 1911 said:

I was asking because I thought you guys know? Real questions nothing stupid or silly and everyone is posting silly pictures and I have a real question. Does batfe say no handgun ammo allowed to 21years or younger while in a handgun while OC. ( I know its another state but Batfe is Federal)

Click to expand...

NO. If your so-called ffl contact disagrees, I mentioned how you should deal with it.

If he is referring to the following:

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;

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that tells the ffl that HE (as a licensed whatever) cannot sell or transfer yadayadayada......
It does not tell ME that I cannot do the same. I am not a licensed yadayada....

{inserting CD-ROM entitled ATF PUBLICATION 5300.5}

Looking now...

FOUND:

THE GUN CONTROL ACT OF 1968
TITLE 18, UNITED STATE CODE, CHAPTER 44

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed
importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed
dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
(1) any firearm or ammunition to any
individual who the licensee knows or
has reasonable cause to believe is less
than eighteen years of age, and, if the
firearm or ammunition is other than a
shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a
shotgun or rifle, to any individual who
the licensee knows or has reasonable
cause to believe is less than twenty-one
years of age;
(2) any firearm to any person in any
State where the purchase or possession
by such person of such firearm
would be in violation of any State law or
any published ordinance applicable at
the place of sale, delivery or other disposition,
unless the licensee knows or
has reasonable cause to believe that
the purchase or possession would not
be in violation of such State law or such
published ordinance;

IN OTHER WORDS, A DEALER CANNOT SELL AMMO TO YOU. SOMEONE ELSE HAD TO BUY IT FOR YOU.

Furthermore...

(x) (1) It shall be unlawful for a person to
sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a
person who the transferor knows or has
reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile—
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for
use only in a handgun.
(2) It shall be unlawful for any person
who is a juvenile to knowingly possess—
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for
use only in a handgun.
(3) This subsection does not apply
to—
(A) a temporary transfer of a
handgun or ammunition to a juvenile
or to the possession or use of a
handgun or ammunition by a juvenile
if the handgun and ammunition are
possessed and used by the juvenile—
(i) in the course of employment,
in the course of ranching or farming
related to activities at the residence
of the juvenile (or on
property used for ranching or farming
at which the juvenile, with the
permission of the property owner
or lessee, is performing activities
related to the operation of the farm
or ranch), target practice, hunting,
or a course of instruction in the
safe and lawful use of a handgun;
(ii) with the prior written consent
of the juvenile's parent or guardian
who is not prohibited by Federal,
State, or local law from possessing
a firearm, except—
(I) during transportation by the
juvenile of an unloaded handgun
in a locked container directly
from the place of transfer to a
place at which an activity described
in clause (i) is to take
place and transportation by the
juvenile of that handgun,
unloaded and in a locked container,
directly from the place at
which such an activity took place
to the transferor; or
(II) with respect to ranching or
farming activities as described in
clause (i), a juvenile may possess
and use a handgun or
ammunition with the prior written
approval of the juvenile's parent
or legal guardian and at the direction
of an adult who is not
prohibited by Federal, State or
local law from possessing a firearm;
(iii) the juvenile has the prior
written consent in the juvenile's
possession at all times when a
handgun is in the possession of
the juvenile; and
(iv) in accordance with State
and local law;
(B) a juvenile who is a member of
the Armed Forces of the United
States or the National Guard who
possesses or is armed with a handgun
in the line of duty;
(C) a transfer by inheritance of title
(but not possession) of a handgun or
ammunition to a juvenile; or
(D) the possession of a handgun
or ammunition by a juvenile taken in
defense of the juvenile or other persons
against an intruder into the
residence of the juvenile or a residence
in which the juvenile is an invited
guest.
(4) A handgun or ammunition, the
possession of which is transferred to a
juvenile in circumstances in which the
transferor is not in violation of this subsection
shall not be subject to permanent
confiscation by the Government if
its possession by the juvenile subsequently
becomes unlawful because of
the conduct of the juvenile, but shall be
returned to the lawful owner when such
handgun or ammunition is no longer required
by the Government for the purposes
of investigation or prosecution.
(5) For purposes of this subsection,
the term "juvenile" means a person
who is less than 18 years of age.

peter nap said:

It wasn't a silly picture. You make my head hurt.
What did I tell you? Know the law!
I was an FFL.
The answer is. You can't buy it in a store. You can have it in your possession.

Look up the law! Read the law! Then ask if you don't understand it.

Don't get your legal knowledge from internet forums.

This was posted by an FFL. He's an idiot. I said bad things to him! so bad, i had to go to church instead of going fishing!

this is a note for all
I am a ffl dealer and have done a few transfers for some in the past. That stopped today .
I got a gun from a pawnshop with NO KEY . he is not allowed to send with NO key[if equiped]. The guy sent him the money and I have the gun. so who is out the money and gun?
This is the last one I will do but have nice gun to play with

This was posted on the internet:
An hour later, the little boy died. Come to find out, when returning to Burger King to see if there were red ants in the play area, in case the little boy had an allergic reaction. Burger King employees and herself discovered that there was a family of baby rattlesnakes living underneath the balls in the ball-pit area. She has since found out that this happens more frequently than not. The snakes will crawl into the ball pit because it is dark and warm in there.

and this:
A shopper in a department store is handling a coat, blanket, rug, or mattress (etc.), suddenly feels a sharp pain, and collapses. It turns out she was bitten by a snake hiding in the merchandise.

Read the law!

Click to expand...

Those mcd ball pits also harbor the deadly used heroin hypos. I know, because the internet told me so... Or was it an email?

In other words, your friends and boneheads from another state are more fullofshit than a christmas turkey!

Have a nice day!!!

Colt1911,

Prior to this thread, you have already been recommended against, cautioned against, etc. accepting the law from others, and to read the law itself for yourself.

I would not even accept the word of a BATFE agent who showed me his badge and credentials. He is not the correct source of the law. The correct source of the law is the statute or ordinance itself, the text of the regulation, or a court opinion. Please memorize and apply that.

Even on this website, if someone says, "such and such is the law", he is required to name the actual statute, ordinance, regulation, or court opinion. Because those are the proper and reliable sources of law.

In your OP in this thread, you completely violated the advice I gave you by PM. Look for yourself, or if you cannot find it yourself, then ask where to look.

We are not your personal research assistants nor your secretaries. The problem is not that you have questions. The problem is that you are not taking responsibility to find your own answers before wanting us to do your research for you.

So,

1) Don't ask anybody--cops, BATFE, park rangers--what the law is. The only person it is relatively safe to ask is your lawyer.

2) Read the law for yourself. You are the one going to jail if someone else tells it to you sideways. If you need help finding the law, feel free to ask where to look, meaning if you have already looked for it yourself and can't find it, then ask for an internet resource where you can read the law for yourself. If, after reading the law, you are not sure you understand, or want to check your understanding, then feel free to ask us.

MSC 45ACP said:

Stop with the inane dumb@$$ questions already.

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This helps:

It's so funny.

Curtis said:

This helps:

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Only person I've ignored is heliopolisolutions or whatever his name is. I did that because he is a complete and intentional trolling and instigating ass.

Colt 1911 may be the second person I ingore. This time it will be due to stupidity. I almost feel bad doing it, like I'll be picking on a special person.

I got over it.

Bad feeling passed. He is ignored.

Curtis, you and Simmonsjoe crackmethefluck up!

I may look for that ignore feature...