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Thread: CA Berry Picker needs help!

  1. #1
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    CA Berry Picker needs help!

    Hello Michigan,

    I am seriously confused.

    Here are the pertinent facts about my situation:

    1) My wife and I own a home in L'Anse.
    2) My wife and I are residents of PRK (People's Republic of Kalifornia).
    3) I hunt deer with my brothers-in-law at my brother-in-law's camp.

    And here are the mixed messages that I have recieved:

    1) DNR, on their website, claims that it is illegal for me to posses, purchase, carry, wear, or bear a pistol in Michigan.
    2) A Baraga County Deputy Sheriff searched Michigan Statutes and said that I can possess a pistol in our Michigan home, and that the transport issue is a good question as he found nothing that restricted me from transporting my pistols as long as I followed Michigan law.
    3) A Michigan State Policeman stated that it was legal for me to OC and that I would be further protected from arrest because of reciprocity. CA has an open carry law on the books that allows Michiganders to OC in the PRK.
    4) My search of Michigan statutes found nothing that restricts me from OCing in Michigan, nothing that restricts me from handgun hunting in Michigan, and nothing that restricts me from transporting pistols in Michigan as long as I follow the Michigan law for weapons in the car.

    Also, the reciprocity issue is strictly limited to CPL and concealed carry, and nothing else.

    I will happily submit my guns for a safety check/registration.

    Do you understand my confusion?

    Is there an OC pamphlet that explains Michigan law regarding OC?

    Thanks,
    markm

  2. #2
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkBofRAdvocate View Post
    Hello Michigan,

    I am seriously confused.

    Here are the pertinent facts about my situation:

    1) My wife and I own a home in L'Anse.
    2) My wife and I are residents of PRK (People's Republic of Kalifornia).
    3) I hunt deer with my brothers-in-law at my brother-in-law's camp.

    And here are the mixed messages that I have recieved:

    1) DNR, on their website, claims that it is illegal for me to posses, purchase, carry, wear, or bear a pistol in Michigan.
    2) A Baraga County Deputy Sheriff searched Michigan Statutes and said that I can possess a pistol in our Michigan home, and that the transport issue is a good question as he found nothing that restricted me from transporting my pistols as long as I followed Michigan law.
    3) A Michigan State Policeman stated that it was legal for me to OC and that I would be further protected from arrest because of reciprocity. CA has an open carry law on the books that allows Michiganders to OC in the PRK.
    4) My search of Michigan statutes found nothing that restricts me from OCing in Michigan, nothing that restricts me from handgun hunting in Michigan, and nothing that restricts me from transporting pistols in Michigan as long as I follow the Michigan law for weapons in the car.

    Also, the reciprocity issue is strictly limited to CPL and concealed carry, and nothing else.

    I will happily submit my guns for a safety check/registration.

    Do you understand my confusion?

    Is there an OC pamphlet that explains Michigan law regarding OC?

    Thanks,
    markm
    The statue is below. If you meet the red parts you can possess a pistol in Michigan. If you don't then you can not possess a pistol in Michigan. There is some question on the legality of this and you may be able to possess a pistol as long as you can lawfully possess it in your state.

    (8) An individual who is not a resident of this state is not required to obtain a license under this section if all of the following conditions apply:
    (a) The individual is licensed in his or her state of residence to purchase, carry, or transport a pistol.
    (b) The individual is in possession of the license described in subdivision (a).
    (c) The individual is the owner of the pistol he or she possesses, carries, or transports.
    (d) The individual possesses the pistol for a lawful purpose as that term is defined in section 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.231a.
    (e) The individual is in this state for a period of 180 days or less and does not intend to establish residency in this state.


    28.422 License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol; issuance; qualifications; applications; sale of pistol; exemptions; nonresidents; basic pistol safety brochure; forging application; implementation during business hours. Sec. 2.

    (1) Except as otherwise provided in this section, a person shall not purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol as prescribed in this section.

    (2) A person who brings a pistol into this state who is on leave from active duty with the armed forces of the United States or who has been discharged from active duty with the armed forces of the United States shall obtain a license for the pistol within 30 days after his or her arrival in this state.

    (3) The commissioner or chief of police of a city, township, or village police department that issues licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols, or his or her duly authorized deputy, or the sheriff or his or her duly authorized deputy, in the parts of a county not included within a city, township, or village having an organized police department, in discharging the duty to issue licenses shall with due speed and diligence issue licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols to qualified applicants residing within the city, village, township, or county, as applicable unless he or she has probable cause to believe that the applicant would be a threat to himself or herself or to other individuals, or would commit an offense with the pistol that would violate a law of this or another state or of the United States. An applicant is qualified if all of the following circumstances exist:

    (a) The person is not subject to an order or disposition for which he or she has received notice and an opportunity for a hearing, and which was entered into the law enforcement information network pursuant to any of the following:
    (i) Section 464a(1) of the mental health code, 1974 PA 258, MCL 330.1464a.
    (ii) Section 5107 of the estates and protected individuals code, 1998 PA 386, MCL 700.5107, or section 444a of former 1978 PA 642.
    (iii) Section 2950(10) of the revised judicature act of 1961, 1961 PA 236, MCL 600.2950.
    (iv) Section 2950a(7) of the revised judicature act of 1961, 1961 PA 236, MCL 600.2950a.
    (v) Section 14 of 1846 RS 84, MCL 552.14.
    (vi) Section 6b(5) of chapter V of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 765.6b, if the order has a condition imposed under section 6b(3) of chapter V of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 765.6b.
    (vii) Section 16b(1) of chapter IX of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 769.16b.

    (b) The person is 18 years of age or older or, if the seller is licensed under 18 USC 923, is 21 years of age or older.

    (c) The person is a citizen of the United States and is a legal resident of this state. For the purposes of this section, a person shall be considered a legal resident of this state if any of the following apply:
    (i) The person has a valid, lawfully obtained Michigan driver license issued under the Michigan vehicle code, 1949 PA 300, MCL 257.1 to 257.923, or an official state personal identification card issued under 1972 PA 222, MCL 28.291 to 28.300.
    (ii) The person is lawfully registered to vote in this state.
    (iii) The person is on active duty status with the United States armed forces and is stationed outside of this state, but the person's home of record is in this state.
    (iv) The person is on active duty status with the United States armed forces and is permanently stationed in this state, but the person's home of record is in another state.

    (d) A felony charge or a criminal charge listed in section 5b against the person is not pending at the time of application.

    (e) The person is not prohibited from possessing, using, transporting, selling, purchasing, carrying, shipping, receiving, or distributing a firearm under section 224f of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.224f.

    (f) The person has not been adjudged insane in this state or elsewhere unless he or she has been adjudged restored to sanity by court order.

    (g) The person is not under an order of involuntary commitment in an inpatient or outpatient setting due to mental illness.

    (h) The person has not been adjudged legally incapacitated in this state or elsewhere. This subdivision does not apply to a person who has had his or her legal capacity restored by order of the court.
    (i) The person correctly answers 70% or more of the questions on a basic pistol safety review questionnaire approved by the department of state police and provided to the individual free of charge by the licensing authority. If the person fails to correctly answer 70% or more of the questions on the basic pistol safety review questionnaire, the licensing authority shall inform the person of the questions he or she answered incorrectly and allow the person to attempt to complete another basic pistol safety review questionnaire. The person shall not be allowed to attempt to complete more than 2 basic pistol safety review questionnaires on any single day. The licensing authority shall allow the person to attempt to complete the questionnaire during normal business hours on the day the person applies for his or her license.

    (4) Applications for licenses under this section shall be signed by the applicant under oath upon forms provided by the director of the department of state police. Licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols shall be executed in quadruplicate upon forms provided by the director of the department of state police and shall be signed by the licensing authority. Four copies of the license shall be delivered to the applicant by the licensing authority. A license is void unless used within 10 days after the date it is issued.

    (5) If an individual purchases or otherwise acquires a pistol, the seller shall fill out the license forms describing the pistol, together with the date of sale or acquisition, and sign his or her name in ink indicating that the pistol was sold to or otherwise acquired by the purchaser. The purchaser shall also sign his or her name in ink indicating the purchase or other acquisition of the pistol from the seller. The seller may retain a copy of the license as a record of the transaction. The purchaser shall receive 3 copies of the license. The purchaser shall return 2 copies of the license to the licensing authority within 10 days after the date the pistol is purchased or acquired. The return of the copies to the licensing authority may be made in person or may be made by first-class mail or certified mail sent within the 10-day period to the proper address of the licensing authority. A purchaser who fails to comply with the requirements of this subsection is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $250.00. If a purchaser is found responsible for a state civil infraction under this subsection, the court shall notify the department of state police of that determination.

    (6) Within 48 hours after receiving the license copies returned under subsection (5), the licensing authority shall forward 1 copy of the license to the department of state police. The licensing authority shall retain the other copy of the license as an official record for not less than 6 years. Within 10 days after receiving the license copies returned under subsection (5), the licensing authority shall electronically enter the information into the pistol entry database as required by the department of state police if it has the ability to electronically enter that information. If the licensing authority does not have that ability, the licensing authority shall provide that information to the department of state police in a manner otherwise required by the department of state police. Any licensing authority that provided pistol descriptions to the department of state police under former section 9 of this act shall continue to provide pistol descriptions to the department of state police under this subsection. The purchaser has the right to obtain a copy of the information placed in the pistol entry database under this subsection to verify the accuracy of that information. The licensing authority may charge a fee not to exceed $1.00 for the cost of providing the copy. The licensee may carry, use, possess, and transport the pistol for 30 days beginning on the date of purchase or acquisition only while he or she is in possession of his or her copy of the license. However, the person is not required to have the license in his or her possession while carrying, using, possessing, or transporting the pistol after this period.

    (7) This section does not apply to the purchase of pistols from wholesalers by dealers regularly engaged in the business of selling pistols at retail, or to the sale, barter, or exchange of pistols kept as relics or curios not made for modern ammunition or permanently deactivated. This section does not prevent the transfer of ownership of pistols that are inherited if the license to purchase is approved by the commissioner or chief of police, sheriff, or their authorized deputies, and signed by the personal representative of the estate or by the next of kin having authority to dispose of the pistol.

    (8) An individual who is not a resident of this state is not required to obtain a license under this section if all of the following conditions apply:
    (a) The individual is licensed in his or her state of residence to purchase, carry, or transport a pistol.
    (b) The individual is in possession of the license described in subdivision (a).
    (c) The individual is the owner of the pistol he or she possesses, carries, or transports.
    (d) The individual possesses the pistol for a lawful purpose as that term is defined in section 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.231a.
    (e) The individual is in this state for a period of 180 days or less and does not intend to establish residency in this state.
    (9) An individual who is a nonresident of this state shall present the license described in subsection (8)(a) upon the demand of a police officer. An individual who violates this subsection is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
    (10) The licensing authority may require a person claiming active duty status with the United States armed forces to provide proof of 1 or both of the following:
    (a) The person's home of record.
    (b) Permanent active duty assignment in this state.
    (11) This section does not apply to a person who is younger than the age required under subsection (3)(b) and who possesses a pistol if all of the following conditions apply:
    (a) The person is not otherwise prohibited from possessing that pistol.
    (b) The person is at a recognized target range.
    (c) The person possesses the pistol for the purpose of target practice or instruction in the safe use of a pistol.
    (d) The person's parent or guardian is physically present and supervising the person.
    (e) The owner of the pistol is physically present.
    (12) This section does not apply to a person who possesses a pistol if all of the following conditions apply:
    (a) The person is not otherwise prohibited from possessing a pistol.
    (b) The person is at a recognized target range or shooting facility.
    (c) The person possesses the pistol for the purpose of target practice or instruction in the safe use of a pistol.
    (d) The owner of the pistol is physically present and supervising the use of the pistol.
    (13) The licensing authority shall provide a basic pistol safety brochure to each applicant for a license under this section before the applicant answers the basic pistol safety review questionnaire. A basic pistol safety brochure shall contain, but is not limited to providing, information on all of the following subjects:
    (a) Rules for safe handling and use of pistols.
    (b) Safe storage of pistols.
    (c) Nomenclature and description of various types of pistols.
    (d) The responsibilities of owning a pistol.
    (14) The basic pistol safety brochure shall be supplied in addition to the safety pamphlet required by section 9b.
    (15) The basic pistol safety brochure required in subsection (13) shall be produced by a national nonprofit membership organization that provides voluntary pistol safety programs that include training individuals in the safe handling and use of pistols.
    (16) A person who forges any matter on an application for a license under this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years or a fine of not more than $2,000.00, or both.
    (17) A licensing authority shall implement this section during all of the licensing authority's normal business hours and shall set hours for implementation that allow an applicant to use the license within the time period set forth in subsection (4).
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkBofRAdvocate View Post
    Hello Michigan,

    CA has an open carry law on the books that allows Michiganders to OC in the PRK.

    Do you understand my confusion?


    Thanks,
    markm

    That raises a question for you. If a Michigan resident were to OC in Kalifornia, would it have to be unloaded OC? (Not that I would so much as throw a rock on your state from across a bordering state line, much less set foot on it.)

    And yes, of course we understand your confusion, our laws have this confusion built into them intentionally.

  4. #4
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    MarkBofRAdvocate:

    Note the red portion that Venator was kind enough to post for you. I am inclined to think that you have a Handgun Safety Certificate (HSC) issued by CA. Since that certificate is required to purchase a handgun in CA, that would ostensibly serve as the exception. As long as you have that on your person while possessing the pistol, you should be fine. Here is an excerpt from another website that I think explains what is required for transportation:
    The law changed in March of 2002 from the old "to and from" rules. You may now transport a pistol for any lawful purpose as long as it is stored correctly. The new law defines "lawful purpose" to include the old "to and from" rules but those are only examples of lawful purposes and do not exclude other lawful purposes. Remember, a pistol carried in the passenger compartment of a vehicle, except under the circumstances below where there is no trunk, will be considered concealed, whether it is in plain view or not.
    The proper way to transport a pistol in a vehicle if you do not hold a CPL permit is: The pistol must be:
    -unloaded;
    -registered to the owner of the motor vehicle or to an occupant of the motor vehicle(You would be exempt with the HSC)
    -in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms;
    -in the trunk, or for a vehicle which does not have a trunk, where the closed case
    designed for the storage of firearms is not readily accessible to the occupants of
    the vehicle..


    Regarding the DNR, they state:

    Statewide Handgun Regulations

    The rules listed below may not apply to a person having a concealed pistol license (CPL) or a person specifically exempt by law from a CPL and carrying their handgun in accordance with their license or exemption.

    A person must be at least 18 years of age to hunt with (possess) a handgun.

    Handguns cannot be borrowed or loaned to another person other than provided for under the CPL.

    While in the field, handguns must be carried in plain view. Carrying a handgun in a holster in plain view is permitted.

    You may transport your registered handguns while en route to and from your hunting or target shooting area; however, handguns, including BB guns larger than .177 caliber and all pellet guns must be unloaded and in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms and cannot be readily accessible to any occupant of the vehicle.

    It is a crime for certain felons to possess firearms, including rifles and shotguns, in Michigan.

    Nonresidents must have a CPL issued by their home state in their possession in order to legally carry or transport a handgun in Michigan.

    For more information regarding statewide handgun regulations, obtaining a concealed pistol license or Michigan concealed weapons and firearms laws, contact your local police department.


    From: http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7...1584--,00.html

    Notice what I put in red; this is probably the part that you think prohibits you from hunting with the pistol. IMHO, it doesn't.

    For many years, the only way for a non-resident to possess a pistol in MI was by having a concealed carry license from their state of residence. But that has changed. The first section of this mentions that these rules may not apply if you have an exemption from the CPL requirement-- your HSC would be your exemption. As the law indicates, IF you DO NOT have a HSC or a Concealed License from CA, because you are a CA resident, you would have to get a Michigan CPL, but because you are resident in CA and in order to register a handgun in Michigan residency here is required, there is no way that you could register the pistols here.

    This is the law as it now stands. Hopefully we can change the residency requirement to register a handgun; the recent McDonald case seems to indicate such a prohibition would be unconstitutional. However, it remains to be seen what effect the ruling has here in Michigan. In the meantime, I am not a lawyer but I would have no hesitation, with a HSC in hand, to transport and use the pistol while hunting here in Michigan.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  5. #5
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    More Questions????

    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    The statue is below. If you meet the red parts you can possess a pistol in Michigan. If you don't then you can not possess a pistol in Michigan. There is some question on the legality of this and you may be able to possess a pistol as long as you can lawfully possess it in your state.

    (8) An individual who is not a resident of this state is not required to obtain a license under this section if all of the following conditions apply:
    (a) The individual is licensed in his or her state of residence to purchase, carry, or transport a pistol.
    (b) The individual is in possession of the license described in subdivision (a).
    (c) The individual is the owner of the pistol he or she possesses, carries, or transports.
    (d) The individual possesses the pistol for a lawful purpose as that term is defined in section 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.231a.
    (e) The individual is in this state for a period of 180 days or less and does not intend to establish residency in this state.


    28.422 License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol; issuance; qualifications; applications; sale of pistol; exemptions; nonresidents; basic pistol safety brochure; forging application; implementation during business hours. Sec. 2.

    (1) Except as otherwise provided in this section, a person shall not purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol as prescribed in this section.

    (2) A person who brings a pistol into this state who is on leave from active duty with the armed forces of the United States or who has been discharged from active duty with the armed forces of the United States shall obtain a license for the pistol within 30 days after his or her arrival in this state.

    (3) The commissioner or chief of police of a city, township, or village police department that issues licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols, or his or her duly authorized deputy, or the sheriff or his or her duly authorized deputy, in the parts of a county not included within a city, township, or village having an organized police department, in discharging the duty to issue licenses shall with due speed and diligence issue licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols to qualified applicants residing within the city, village, township, or county, as applicable unless he or she has probable cause to believe that the applicant would be a threat to himself or herself or to other individuals, or would commit an offense with the pistol that would violate a law of this or another state or of the United States. An applicant is qualified if all of the following circumstances exist:

    (a) The person is not subject to an order or disposition for which he or she has received notice and an opportunity for a hearing, and which was entered into the law enforcement information network pursuant to any of the following:
    (i) Section 464a(1) of the mental health code, 1974 PA 258, MCL 330.1464a.
    (ii) Section 5107 of the estates and protected individuals code, 1998 PA 386, MCL 700.5107, or section 444a of former 1978 PA 642.
    (iii) Section 2950(10) of the revised judicature act of 1961, 1961 PA 236, MCL 600.2950.
    (iv) Section 2950a(7) of the revised judicature act of 1961, 1961 PA 236, MCL 600.2950a.
    (v) Section 14 of 1846 RS 84, MCL 552.14.
    (vi) Section 6b(5) of chapter V of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 765.6b, if the order has a condition imposed under section 6b(3) of chapter V of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 765.6b.
    (vii) Section 16b(1) of chapter IX of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 769.16b.

    (b) The person is 18 years of age or older or, if the seller is licensed under 18 USC 923, is 21 years of age or older.

    (c) The person is a citizen of the United States and is a legal resident of this state. For the purposes of this section, a person shall be considered a legal resident of this state if any of the following apply:
    (i) The person has a valid, lawfully obtained Michigan driver license issued under the Michigan vehicle code, 1949 PA 300, MCL 257.1 to 257.923, or an official state personal identification card issued under 1972 PA 222, MCL 28.291 to 28.300.
    (ii) The person is lawfully registered to vote in this state.
    (iii) The person is on active duty status with the United States armed forces and is stationed outside of this state, but the person's home of record is in this state.
    (iv) The person is on active duty status with the United States armed forces and is permanently stationed in this state, but the person's home of record is in another state.

    (d) A felony charge or a criminal charge listed in section 5b against the person is not pending at the time of application.

    (e) The person is not prohibited from possessing, using, transporting, selling, purchasing, carrying, shipping, receiving, or distributing a firearm under section 224f of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.224f.

    (f) The person has not been adjudged insane in this state or elsewhere unless he or she has been adjudged restored to sanity by court order.

    (g) The person is not under an order of involuntary commitment in an inpatient or outpatient setting due to mental illness.

    (h) The person has not been adjudged legally incapacitated in this state or elsewhere. This subdivision does not apply to a person who has had his or her legal capacity restored by order of the court.
    (i) The person correctly answers 70% or more of the questions on a basic pistol safety review questionnaire approved by the department of state police and provided to the individual free of charge by the licensing authority. If the person fails to correctly answer 70% or more of the questions on the basic pistol safety review questionnaire, the licensing authority shall inform the person of the questions he or she answered incorrectly and allow the person to attempt to complete another basic pistol safety review questionnaire. The person shall not be allowed to attempt to complete more than 2 basic pistol safety review questionnaires on any single day. The licensing authority shall allow the person to attempt to complete the questionnaire during normal business hours on the day the person applies for his or her license.

    (4) Applications for licenses under this section shall be signed by the applicant under oath upon forms provided by the director of the department of state police. Licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols shall be executed in quadruplicate upon forms provided by the director of the department of state police and shall be signed by the licensing authority. Four copies of the license shall be delivered to the applicant by the licensing authority. A license is void unless used within 10 days after the date it is issued.

    (5) If an individual purchases or otherwise acquires a pistol, the seller shall fill out the license forms describing the pistol, together with the date of sale or acquisition, and sign his or her name in ink indicating that the pistol was sold to or otherwise acquired by the purchaser. The purchaser shall also sign his or her name in ink indicating the purchase or other acquisition of the pistol from the seller. The seller may retain a copy of the license as a record of the transaction. The purchaser shall receive 3 copies of the license. The purchaser shall return 2 copies of the license to the licensing authority within 10 days after the date the pistol is purchased or acquired. The return of the copies to the licensing authority may be made in person or may be made by first-class mail or certified mail sent within the 10-day period to the proper address of the licensing authority. A purchaser who fails to comply with the requirements of this subsection is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $250.00. If a purchaser is found responsible for a state civil infraction under this subsection, the court shall notify the department of state police of that determination.

    (6) Within 48 hours after receiving the license copies returned under subsection (5), the licensing authority shall forward 1 copy of the license to the department of state police. The licensing authority shall retain the other copy of the license as an official record for not less than 6 years. Within 10 days after receiving the license copies returned under subsection (5), the licensing authority shall electronically enter the information into the pistol entry database as required by the department of state police if it has the ability to electronically enter that information. If the licensing authority does not have that ability, the licensing authority shall provide that information to the department of state police in a manner otherwise required by the department of state police. Any licensing authority that provided pistol descriptions to the department of state police under former section 9 of this act shall continue to provide pistol descriptions to the department of state police under this subsection. The purchaser has the right to obtain a copy of the information placed in the pistol entry database under this subsection to verify the accuracy of that information. The licensing authority may charge a fee not to exceed $1.00 for the cost of providing the copy. The licensee may carry, use, possess, and transport the pistol for 30 days beginning on the date of purchase or acquisition only while he or she is in possession of his or her copy of the license. However, the person is not required to have the license in his or her possession while carrying, using, possessing, or transporting the pistol after this period.

    (7) This section does not apply to the purchase of pistols from wholesalers by dealers regularly engaged in the business of selling pistols at retail, or to the sale, barter, or exchange of pistols kept as relics or curios not made for modern ammunition or permanently deactivated. This section does not prevent the transfer of ownership of pistols that are inherited if the license to purchase is approved by the commissioner or chief of police, sheriff, or their authorized deputies, and signed by the personal representative of the estate or by the next of kin having authority to dispose of the pistol.

    (8) An individual who is not a resident of this state is not required to obtain a license under this section if all of the following conditions apply:
    (a) The individual is licensed in his or her state of residence to purchase, carry, or transport a pistol.
    (b) The individual is in possession of the license described in subdivision (a).
    (c) The individual is the owner of the pistol he or she possesses, carries, or transports.
    (d) The individual possesses the pistol for a lawful purpose as that term is defined in section 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.231a.
    (e) The individual is in this state for a period of 180 days or less and does not intend to establish residency in this state.
    (9) An individual who is a nonresident of this state shall present the license described in subsection (8)(a) upon the demand of a police officer. An individual who violates this subsection is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
    (10) The licensing authority may require a person claiming active duty status with the United States armed forces to provide proof of 1 or both of the following:
    (a) The person's home of record.
    (b) Permanent active duty assignment in this state.
    (11) This section does not apply to a person who is younger than the age required under subsection (3)(b) and who possesses a pistol if all of the following conditions apply:
    (a) The person is not otherwise prohibited from possessing that pistol.
    (b) The person is at a recognized target range.
    (c) The person possesses the pistol for the purpose of target practice or instruction in the safe use of a pistol.
    (d) The person's parent or guardian is physically present and supervising the person.
    (e) The owner of the pistol is physically present.
    (12) This section does not apply to a person who possesses a pistol if all of the following conditions apply:
    (a) The person is not otherwise prohibited from possessing a pistol.
    (b) The person is at a recognized target range or shooting facility.
    (c) The person possesses the pistol for the purpose of target practice or instruction in the safe use of a pistol.
    (d) The owner of the pistol is physically present and supervising the use of the pistol.
    (13) The licensing authority shall provide a basic pistol safety brochure to each applicant for a license under this section before the applicant answers the basic pistol safety review questionnaire. A basic pistol safety brochure shall contain, but is not limited to providing, information on all of the following subjects:
    (a) Rules for safe handling and use of pistols.
    (b) Safe storage of pistols.
    (c) Nomenclature and description of various types of pistols.
    (d) The responsibilities of owning a pistol.
    (14) The basic pistol safety brochure shall be supplied in addition to the safety pamphlet required by section 9b.
    (15) The basic pistol safety brochure required in subsection (13) shall be produced by a national nonprofit membership organization that provides voluntary pistol safety programs that include training individuals in the safe handling and use of pistols.
    (16) A person who forges any matter on an application for a license under this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years or a fine of not more than $2,000.00, or both.
    (17) A licensing authority shall implement this section during all of the licensing authority's normal business hours and shall set hours for implementation that allow an applicant to use the license within the time period set forth in subsection (4).
    Here are some of my questions:

    1) In CA a citizen of the US is not required to be licensed to LOC or UOC. UOC is the law only in "prohibited shooting areas." I LOC regularly and it is legal. No license to purchase, carrry,wear, bear in CA; therefore, no license required in Michigan to LOC and UOC? Registration is the law in CA; therefore, all I have to do is submit my guns for a safety check? Right?

    2) The statute quoted above is for concealed carry. I am not going to conceal my pistol; therefore, this law does not apply to me???? The State Trooper interpreted the law that way. He said it was legal for me to LOC or UOC--my choice.

    3) I am a property owner in Michigan, under McDonald, I am protected in my home from legal action if I choose to have a gun their. Right? So says the Deputy Sheriff.

    markm

  6. #6
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    That raises a question for you. If a Michigan resident were to OC in Kalifornia, would it have to be unloaded OC? (Not that I would so much as throw a rock on your state from across a bordering state line, much less set foot on it.)

    And yes, of course we understand your confusion, our laws have this confusion built into them intentionally.
    I OC'd there for 2 weeks a couple years ago. Yes, it is a pain that it is unloaded but, imho, better than nothing as I can pop the mag in and pull the slide pretty quickly. I didn't have any problems at all as I traveled all over with my G23 snugly on my hip with a 10 rd mag right next to it. (They don't allow anything more than 10 rounds for mags in CA)

    I was surprised, though, that flying into and out of LAX was not a problem at all. OK, on my return to MI it was kind of fun seeing the older couple standing behind me at LAX as I told the desk agent that I wanted to declare my firearm. The agent had never had to do this before so she left me standing there for about 10 minutes to get a supervisor. The pistol case was wide open, firearm fully exposed, ammo box sitting next to it. The older couple's eyes got as big as saucers as the male stated softly: You can carry guns on a plane? Then, a supervisor showed up, checked that it was unloaded, walked me past the long lines to the security checkpoint (cutting in front of everyone else), and helped me pass the bag through the baggage x-ray system. No problem at all.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

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  7. #7
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkBofRAdvocate View Post
    Here are some of my questions:

    1) In CA a citizen of the US is not required to be licensed to LOC or UOC. UOC is the law only in "prohibited shooting areas." I LOC regularly and it is legal. No license to purchase, carrry,wear, bear in CA; therefore, no license required in Michigan to LOC and UOC? Registration is the law in CA; therefore, all I have to do is submit my guns for a safety check? Right?

    NO

    you do not have to do anything other than have your HSC on you once you are here. We don't have the safety check anymore, just registration. You are exempt from that with the HSC. If you do not have that (or a license to conceal from CA), then you can't bring them here. The fact that you can possess the pistol means that you can OC it here. When you OC it here, it can, no, should be carried loaded. I know, hard for a Californian to believe


    2) The statute quoted above is for concealed carry. I am not going to conceal my pistol; therefore, this law does not apply to me???? The State Trooper interpreted the law that way. He said it was legal for me to LOC or UOC--my choice.

    Get the idea of UOC out of your head, NOW!. California has poisoned your mind, my friend! If you have the HSC, you are legal to OC. Although yes, you have the choice, why make the choice to UOC when LOC is available?

    3) I am a property owner in Michigan, under McDonald, I am protected in my home from legal action if I choose to have a gun their. Right? So says the Deputy Sheriff.


    --In Michigan, post McDonald case law is nonexistent. You may have the handgun because you are exempt from the registration, since this is the ONLY part of the law which prohibits you from OCing as a non-resident.

    Here is where you MAY NOT OC, loaded/unloaded makes no difference: (private property can also prohibit firearms.)

    The carrying of firearms in public is also restricted by the Michigan Penal Code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.1 et seq. Section 234d of the Penal Code identifies certain "gun free zones". Specifically, section 234d(1) of the Penal Code provides that:

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.

    (c) A court.

    (d) A theatre.

    (e) A sports arena.

    (f) A day care center.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    Similarly, section 237a(4) of the Penal Code prohibits possession of a firearm in a weapon free school zone, a term defined in section 237a(6)(d) as "school property and a vehicle used by a school to transport students to or from school property." (Note that MI state law prohibits carry on the school's property, federal law prohibits you from knowingly carrying within 1,000 feet of a K-12 School.

    markm
    Good Luck Hunting!
    Last edited by DrTodd; 07-29-2010 at 01:08 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Didn't know you could carry a loaded mag. I don't' worry about someone in Michigan grabbing the gun, criminals know ours are loaded, and usually chambered, but in Kalifornia, I could see some thug trying it with his boys close by. Really not much to stop them. Seems like a handgun supermarket to me.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkBofRAdvocate View Post
    2) The statute quoted above is for concealed carry.
    Nope. The statute that Venator quoted you, 28.422, is referring to a license to purchase/possess, NOT conceal. A Michigan resident must apply to the local police dept. for a License to Purchase a pistol for every pistol they wish to buy (unless they have a valid MI CPL which exempts them from this requirement).

    The statute also lays out the rules for registration of any purchased pistols.

    The red parts that Venator highlighted show the exemptions for non-residents. If you meet these exemptions then you won't have to get a License to Purchase/Possess and you won't have to register your pistols here.

    What DrTodd is saying is that your Handgun Safety Certificate meets the requirements for exemption so, as long as you have the HSC on you, you will not have to get a Michigan License to Purchase/Possess, or register your handguns in MI in order to possess them.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Didn't know you could carry a loaded mag. I don't' worry about someone in Michigan grabbing the gun, criminals know ours are loaded, and usually chambered, but in Kalifornia, I could see some thug trying it with his boys close by. Really not much to stop them. Seems like a handgun supermarket to me.
    Situational awareness, Stainless. Criminals are pretty much like sheeple everywhere and assume you are a cop if you are carrying a pistol openly; I don't think too many of them pay any attention to the OC movement. I feel they tend to stay away from people with handguns as it is much easier to just rob someone not carrying one as CA really doesn't give many Permits. What are the chances John Q. Public is armed in CA?... (not very likely).
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Situational awareness, absolutely. It amazes me how people dont get hurt more often than they do. They just don't seem to know what's going on around them. sometimes they don't even recognize what they saw. Many times I've seen people notice my gun for instance, and it didn't even seem to register.

    Yesterday, I thought I recognized this girl at the store, so I followed her for a bit, trying to get a good look at her. I was amazed that even after a couple minutes of following her through the displays and watching her closely, that she diddn't even know I was there. Even though it was a "girl" store, all they had was a bunch of really fancy dresses. I was dressed nicely, but would have looked a bit out of place in there. She was cute though.

    On second thought, not much has changed. Girls have always been oblivious to my presence LOL.

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    Thanks to Dr. Todd and everybody else who posted!!!

    Thanks to all,

    The explanations listed on this thread have really helped. I do not have a CA HSC because I am exempt; however, I will go get one post haste.

    markm

  13. #13
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkBofRAdvocate View Post
    Here are some of my questions:
    2) The statute quoted above is for concealed carry. I am not going to conceal my pistol; therefore, this law does not apply to me???? The State Trooper interpreted the law that way. He said it was legal for me to LOC or UOC--my choice.
    Yep, UOC isn't even a term used outside of california.

  14. #14
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Yep, UOC isn't even a term used outside of california.
    Let's keep it that way!
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    MarkBofRAdvocate:snip...

    Nonresidents must have a CPL issued by their home state in their possession in order to legally carry or transport a handgun in Michigan.

    For more information regarding statewide handgun regulations, obtaining a concealed pistol license or Michigan concealed weapons and firearms laws, contact your local police department.


    From: http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7...1584--,00.html

    Notice what I put in red; this is probably the part that you think prohibits you from hunting with the pistol. IMHO, it doesn't.

    For many years, the only way for a non-resident to possess a pistol in MI was by having a concealed carry license from their state of residence. But that has changed. The first section of this mentions that these rules may not apply if you have an exemption from the CPL requirement-- your HSC would be your exemption. As the law indicates, IF you DO NOT have a HSC or a Concealed License from CA, because you are a CA resident, you would have to get a Michigan CPL, but because you are resident in CA and in order to register a handgun in Michigan residency here is required, there is no way that you could register the pistols here.

    This is the law as it now stands. Hopefully we can change the residency requirement to register a handgun; the recent McDonald case seems to indicate such a prohibition would be unconstitutional. However, it remains to be seen what effect the ruling has here in Michigan. In the meantime, I am not a lawyer but I would have no hesitation, with a HSC in hand, to transport and use the pistol while hunting here in Michigan.
    It looks as though you quoted from the DNR website for this one. I've noticed that they take liberties with interpreting a lot of law. If I had to guess, the line in red is simply an administrative assumption concerning the "license". I would be very surprised to find this exact wording in the game laws. Their (DNR) pamphlets are,and most information on the website is, simply guidelines; an attempt at translating specific law into layman's terms. Unfortunately, these translations sometimes skew the facts.


    ETA: Just an observation. I don't care much for the DNR.
    Last edited by Taurus850CIA; 07-31-2010 at 03:51 PM.
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

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  16. #16
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taurus850CIA View Post
    It looks as though you quoted from the DNR website for this one. I've noticed that they take liberties with interpreting a lot of law. If I had to guess, the line in red is simply an administrative assumption concerning the "license". I would be very surprised to find this exact wording in the game laws. Their (DNR) pamphlets are,and most information on the website is, simply guidelines; an attempt at translating specific law into layman's terms. Unfortunately, these translations sometimes skew the facts.
    Yes I did, as the OP said that is where he got his info that he needed a cpl.

    And I quote:
    And here are the mixed messages that I have recieved:

    1) DNR, on their website, claims that it is illegal for me to posses, purchase, carry, wear, or bear a pistol in Michigan.


    And, yes, you are correct, the DNR website is, imho, worthless to find out the law re handguns. The BEST information on the DNR's rules for EVERYTHING , and thus the ONLY regulations regarding hunting with handguns can be found here: (WCO)

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Wcao_134367_7.html (all orders)
    or
    http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7...0756--,00.html (orders in various form)

    Pull up the page and do a search for "handgun". When I go hunting this is what I look at and carry a copy of. The yearly hunting guide and other publications are, in my opinion, not very helpful and can really cause more problems than it is worth. (Yes, I am speaking from a very negative experience...)

    The DNR regulates HUNTING, not transportation... Many DNR publications are still out there that state you needed a CPL in order to handgun hunt in MI. That was the requirement a few years ago for anyone to bring a handgun into the state, as you may recall, which has been changed. In fact, you used to have to carry your hunter safety certificate, too. Just follow the general law re possession and transportation posted above, and, in the linked WCO above read the section dealing with bear hunting, and he should be good to go.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 07-31-2010 at 01:18 AM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Berry pickin in L'anse, eh? Bring me some berry's damnit. Not that far from you at all actually

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    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
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    My question is, if you own a home in L'Anse, why on earth do you live in California??

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taurus850CIA View Post

    ETA: Just an observation. I don't care much for the DNR.
    Good thing they no longer exist. It's now the DNRE, a new Department.

    For better or worse I now work for the DNRE and I know you don't hate me...
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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    Good thing they no longer exist. It's now the DNRE, a new Department.

    For better or worse I now work for the DNRE and I know you don't hate me...
    Oh, no. A strike against you! Well, as long as you promise to keep the "good buddy" comments to yourself, we'll be alright.
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

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    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

  21. #21
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    Good thing they no longer exist. It's now the DNRE, a new Department.

    For better or worse I now work for the DNRE and I know you don't hate me...
    What, pray tell is the DNRE????
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    Last edited by fozzy71; 08-02-2010 at 10:48 AM.
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    Department of Natural Resources and Environment

    DNR and DEQ merged to save money after splitting to better serve us. They do the same thing as before the merger, just slower and supposedly cheaper.

  24. #24
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    Good thing they no longer exist. It's now the DNRE, a new Department.

    For better or worse I now work for the DNRE and I know you don't hate me...
    I didn't know people actually WORKED for the DNRE. Do you have to have a college degree to do that?
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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