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Thread: What took CeaseFire so long to exploit L. Sammamish shooting?

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    Wink What took CeaseFire so long to exploit L. Sammamish shooting?

    There's a direct reference to O.C. in here...and Ralph Fascitelli's hoplophobic conduct in Olympia last winter at the hearing on banning so-called "assault weapons"

    ================================================== =========

    What took CeaseFire so long to exploit L. Sammamish shooting?

    Why should Fascitelli presume he can dictate how other law-abiding Washington citizens peacefully go about their business? Why does he imagine that more stringent laws, that only impair the rights of law-abiding citizens, will stop criminal behavior?

    http://www.examiner.com/x-4525-Seatt...amish-shooting

    Or try this:

    http://tinyurl.com/25rsq3n

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    My response to Fascitelli ....

    First,

    No where in the McDonald v Chicago decision does the majority opinion refer to "reasonable" gun restrictions/laws. On the bottom of page 39 of Alito's opinion and at the top of page 40, Alito refers to the 3 areas of state government's available remedies: 1) felons and the mentally ill 2) sensitive places (schools and government buildings) 3) commercial sale of firearms.

    Mr. Fascitelli read the decision and deal with the consequences. A park is not a sensitive place per the Supreme Court. You cannot randomly check people at a state park (ever heard of the 4th amendment?)

    Also, in regards to "training"...

    Should firearms or firearm owners be subject to testing to receive a license to carry a firearm?
    The Argument Against
    Author Nick Smith


    No, no, no... it says "....shall not be infringed." no training, no class, no license, nada...the government is to be absent from a citizens right to 'keep' (own) and 'bear' (carry, open or concealed).

    Now for one minute let's tear apart this stupid licensing idea.

    You take ONE test to drive a car when you are 16 and then NEVER have to prove competency again. The test is simple, multiple choice and teaches you nothing that you can't read on your own. You take ONE driving test and then NEVER have to prove your ability ever again, EVER. Your driver’s license is recognized in any of the 50 states. Therefore, you can have learned to drive in Alaska with very little traffic, yet your license is good in New York, New York or Los Angeles, CA.

    You can therefore be 66 years old and have not taken a test, written or physical in 50 YEARS. Do you think cars have changed in the last 50 years? The 'you have to have a license to drive' argument doesn't hold water, it is a joke. How many times driving have you said to yourself; 'that old man shouldn't be driving', 'that woman shouldn't be driving', 'that immigrant shouldn't be driving', 'that teenager shouldn't be driving?' We have all said this to ourselves. The argument simply is ridiculous and is now null and void.

    And even with licensing, we still have; drunk drivers, negligent drivers, hit and runs, get away (from crime) drivers, stolen cars, speeding in school zones and more.

    YOU SEE THAT LICENSING DRIVERS (AND CARS) DOES NOTHING TO PREVENT CRIME FROM CARS...OR FROM DRIVERS.

    We must all simply accept that we choose to live in a free society. In a free society their are inherit risks and there is evil and there is great joy. Part of living in a free society is that we must accept responsibility for our actions. There are things in a free society that people will always not like and will always be opposed to and never agree upon, we must learn to accept that and yet choose to live together in peace and respect.

    LIVE FREE OR DIE!
    Last edited by gogodawgs; 07-29-2010 at 02:50 PM.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Worth clicking this thread just to read your comments GoGo.

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Thank you NICK!!!
    YOU WRITE CLEARLY AND THOUGHTFULLY!!!
    i love you man!!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

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    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    First,


    YOU SEE THAT LICENSING DRIVERS (AND CARS) DOES NOTHING TO PREVENT CRIME FROM CARS...OR FROM DRIVERS.
    If this reference/comparason doesn't convince people, nothing will.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    Well said, gogodawgs!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    YOU SEE THAT LICENSING DRIVERS (AND CARS) DOES NOTHING TO PREVENT CRIME FROM CARS...OR FROM DRIVERS.
    I would love to see some WA data on number of annual deaths related to firearms vs. automobiles... or for that matter firearms vs. everything else.

    I think statistically firearms are safer than many of the objects and activities we subject ourselves to on a daily basis. The statistics on gun violence are often twisted to support the arguments against gun ownership. It would be interesting to compare actual causality data, not specifically related to crime.

  8. #8
    Regular Member j2l3's Avatar
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    Stats from the Washington Dept of Health

    Quote Originally Posted by daddy4count View Post
    I would love to see some WA data on number of annual deaths related to firearms vs. automobiles... or for that matter firearms vs. everything else.

    I think statistically firearms are safer than many of the objects and activities we subject ourselves to on a daily basis. The statistics on gun violence are often twisted to support the arguments against gun ownership. It would be interesting to compare actual causality data, not specifically related to crime.

    The attached document is fromt he Washington Dept of health. It lists numbers of deaths in Washington State by cause from 1998 - 2007.
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    You take ONE driving test and then NEVER have to prove your ability ever again, EVER.
    Only for the sake of correctness, one can be forced to take the driving test again. Law enforcement officers have a mechanism for recommending a retest which is based on their observations of the driver in driving conditions. Is often used for "antique" drivers that like to drive on the Interstate @ 35mph in the middle lane. It is also used when someone returns to driving after a serious injury accident as happened to me 40 years ago. Is it done often? Probably not, but it CAN be done.

    If we ever see CCW licenses that are honored in the same fashion as Driver's licenses, and training is the means that gets this done, I would expect that one could be "nominated" for retraining if they were to demonstrate by action that they can't carry a firearm safely.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Ceasefire should cease firing their mouth,.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Worth clicking this thread just to read your comments GoGo.
    Thank you

    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    Thank you NICK!!!
    YOU WRITE CLEARLY AND THOUGHTFULLY!!!
    i love you man!!
    Again, thank you with your kind words.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpyderTattoo View Post
    If this reference/comparason doesn't convince people, nothing will.
    Thank you Spyder
    Quote Originally Posted by Ajetpilot View Post
    Well said, gogodawgs!
    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Only for the sake of correctness, one can be forced to take the driving test again. Law enforcement officers have a mechanism for recommending a retest which is based on their observations of the driver in driving conditions. Is often used for "antique" drivers that like to drive on the Interstate @ 35mph in the middle lane. It is also used when someone returns to driving after a serious injury accident as happened to me 40 years ago. Is it done often? Probably not, but it CAN be done.

    If we ever see CCW licenses that are honored in the same fashion as Driver's licenses, and training is the means that gets this done, I would expect that one could be "nominated" for retraining if they were to demonstrate by action that they can't carry a firearm safely.
    Yes, but it is a very persuasive argument. The "exceptions" you mention are quite rare and not relevant to the argument at hand. I typed this argument up 6 months ago or so and have used it in the comments of many newspapers websites when people argue for licensing. It tends to shut them up pretty quickly. I have actually been meaning to strengthen the argument, but for space reasons I have yet to do so.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia Plath View Post
    Ceasefire should cease firing their mouth,.
    +1. Why dont they uphold the meaning of their organization. Cease the need to fire a weapon in public. Instead they want to cease the carry of firearms by law abiding citizens, and cease the ability to defend oneself. Just like the Brady bunch who should be campaigning to prevent gun violence instead of campaigning to prevent gun ownership. they both have alterier motives behind their organizations.

    Edited... I just saw Ceasefire is advertising for OpenCarry.org...

    http://www.facebook.com/washingtonce...ngtonceasefire

    Washington Ceasefire What is the policy regarding firearms where you shop? Some malls have declared themselves gun-free zones, and others have not. Ask a business owner this week about their gun policy. Maybe they don't even have one? Share what you learn on the discussion tab.OpenCarry.org - A Right Unexercised is a Right Lost! ...
    www.opencarry.org
    Last edited by amzbrady; 07-30-2010 at 02:18 AM.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

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    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    +1. Why dont they uphold the meaning of their organization. Cease the need to fire a weapon in public. Instead they want to cease the carry of firearms by law abiding citizens, and cease the ability to defend oneself. Just like the Brady bunch who should be campaigning to prevent gun violence instead of campaigning to prevent gun ownership. they both have alterier motives behind their organizations.

    Edited... I just saw Ceasefire is advertising for OpenCarry.org...

    http://www.facebook.com/washingtonce...ngtonceasefire

    Washington Ceasefire What is the policy regarding firearms where you shop? Some malls have declared themselves gun-free zones, and others have not. Ask a business owner this week about their gun policy. Maybe they don't even have one? Share what you learn on the discussion tab.OpenCarry.org - A Right Unexercised is a Right Lost! ...
    www.opencarry.org
    See how long it takes for them to remove my comments..

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoWeenie View Post
    See how long it takes for them to remove my comments..
    Not seeing your quote, where'd ya put it. Might already be gone. Although I dont see Ceasefire deleting Post like the Brady Campaigners who not only want to control the 2nd but try to control the 1st too.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

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    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    Not seeing your quote, where'd ya put it. Might already be gone. Although I dont see Ceasefire deleting Post like the Brady Campaigners who not only want to control the 2nd but try to control the 1st too.
    http://www.facebook.com/washingtonce...app_2373072738
    Last edited by TechnoWeenie; 07-30-2010 at 04:09 AM.

  16. #16
    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoWeenie View Post
    good Job.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by j2l3 View Post
    The attached document is fromt he Washington Dept of health. It lists numbers of deaths in Washington State by cause from 1998 - 2007.
    Right on! Thanks for that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Only for the sake of correctness, one can be forced to take the driving test again. Law enforcement officers have a mechanism for recommending a retest which is based on their observations of the driver in driving conditions. Is often used for "antique" drivers that like to drive on the Interstate @ 35mph in the middle lane. It is also used when someone returns to driving after a serious injury accident as happened to me 40 years ago. Is it done often? Probably not, but it CAN be done.

    If we ever see CCW licenses that are honored in the same fashion as Driver's licenses, and training is the means that gets this done, I would expect that one could be "nominated" for retraining if they were to demonstrate by action that they can't carry a firearm safely.
    I used to be a driving instructor and cringed at who was able to get a driver's licence. I also cringe at the idea of an untrained individual being armed with no firearm training or education on the law regarding the use of a firearm.

    What would be the general response to a Concealed Pistol Licence recognized in all 50 states if the trade off was a one time training that was less than say - $75 and at least included the laws on the use of a firearm (specific to that state) and live fire?
    I understand the sentiment of "...shall not infringe..." and is there a middle ground?
    Last edited by Hendo; 07-30-2010 at 07:17 PM.

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    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendo View Post
    What would be the general response to a Concealed Pistol Licence recognized in all 50 states if the trade off was a one time training that was less than say - $75 and at least included the laws on the use of a firearm (specific to that state) and live fire?
    I understand the sentiment of "...shall not infringe..." and is there a middle ground?
    If the license was recognized in all 50 states, for what specific state laws should the person trained?

    Should a person be trained for use of their First Amendment rights before they are allowed to exercise them?

    Requiring training for the free exercise of a right granted by our Creator and guaranteed by the Constitution is rediculous.

    What you are proposing is more restrictive than what presently exists. Why do you want to do that? I carried a firearm in North Carolina several months ago, both open and concealed. Washington State requires no training; North Carolina recognizes Washington States CPL, and no license is required to open carry. Why would you want to impose more restrictions?

    Gun laws don't work! Bad guys don't obey them. Why do you want to impose more laws on law abiding citizens?

    I agree that training is wonderful. I've taken many courses, and I have more planned. But, how would you get bad guys to seek the required training? Oh, that's right. They don't have to get any training because they don't abide by laws anyway.

    Good grief!

  20. #20
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    +1
    And requiring a license impairs/infringes upon this right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajetpilot View Post
    If the license was recognized in all 50 states, for what specific state laws should the person trained?

    Should a person be trained for use of their First Amendment rights before they are allowed to exercise them?

    Requiring training for the free exercise of a right granted by our Creator and guaranteed by the Constitution is rediculous.

    What you are proposing is more restrictive than what presently exists. Why do you want to do that? I carried a firearm in North Carolina several months ago, both open and concealed. Washington State requires no training; North Carolina recognizes Washington States CPL, and no license is required to open carry. Why would you want to impose more restrictions?

    Gun laws don't work! Bad guys don't obey them. Why do you want to impose more laws on law abiding citizens?

    I agree that training is wonderful. I've taken many courses, and I have more planned. But, how would you get bad guys to seek the required training? Oh, that's right. They don't have to get any training because they don't abide by laws anyway.

    Good grief!
    I understand your perspective and that you are not alone. I also hear that you think training is wonderful but should not be required. Got it. While I hold ideals as well I also try to live in the world as it is. This may not be about what bad guys do or don't do. we all know that. It could be about a discussion about what would you be willing to trade for a CPL recognized anywhere.
    Anyone else - ideas?

  22. #22
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    reciprocity

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendo View Post
    I understand your perspective and that you are not alone. I also hear that you think training is wonderful but should not be required. Got it. While I hold ideals as well I also try to live in the world as it is. This may not be about what bad guys do or don't do. we all know that. It could be about a discussion about what would you be willing to trade for a CPL recognized anywhere.
    Anyone else - ideas?
    ive often wondered how an "optional", addition of recognized firearms training, might allow additional states to accept our CPL.
    other states might also accept our CPL with the "optional" addition of registration, of a specific gun.
    remember, im only talking about "optional" additions to our CPL, additions you could choose to add to your CPL, that would add states that accept your CPL.

    naturally, i would prefer Constitutional carry in all 50 states and DC!!!!!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by j2l3 View Post
    The attached document is fromt he Washington Dept of health. It lists numbers of deaths in Washington State by cause from 1998 - 2007.
    Interesting, the rate of suicide with a firearm is higher than the rate of homocide by firearm. I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to hang onto that document, there are a lot of interesting statistics I'd like to pass around.

  24. #24
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    Quote of the day--Ralph Fascitelli

    Have you seen his latest quote?

    http://blog.joehuffman.org/2010/07/3...ascitelli.aspx

    Let's make our parks gun-free zones where families can gather with peace of mind without the worry of sudden death to innocent loved ones (and let's have our park rangers make spot checks to ensure that no one does indeed have a gun in their possession).

    Ralph Fascitelli
    President of the board for Washington Ceasefire.
    Sammamish park shooting underlines need for gun control
    [It doesn't matter that the people doing the shooting were affiliated with gangs? And if they were engaged in illegal activities, such as assault and battery they aren't "victims".


    Make our parks gun-free zones? Yeah. Right.



    "Gun-free zones" like Virginia Tech, Columbine, Fort Hood, Chicago, and Washington D.C.?

    And since we are violating the Washington State Constitution and the Second Amendment we might as well violate the Fourth Amendment while we are at it. Or how about this--since they don't have a problem violating specific enumerated rights how about we make it illegal for their anti-rights organization to exist? Or for illegal for people to advocate the violation of specific enumerated rights?--Joe]

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