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Thread: Transporting the Firearm

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Transporting the Firearm

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    Last edited by xmanhockey7; 07-30-2010 at 04:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    firearm, other than a pistol, snip
    No! this is talking about rifles, NOT handguns. The part of the law that you need to know about is 750.231a

    And the acronym that you want is CPL, concealed pistol license, not CCW, which is a charge you get when you break the concealed weapons law.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Last edited by xmanhockey7; 07-30-2010 at 04:07 PM.

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    750.231a Exceptions to MCL 750.227(2); definitions.Sec. 231a.
    (1) Subsection (2) of section 227 does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.
    (b) To the regular and ordinary transportation of pistols as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms.
    (c) To a person carrying an antique firearm as defined in subsection (2), completely unloaded in a closed case or container designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of a vehicle.
    (d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.
    (e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.
    (2) As used in this section:
    (a) "Antique firearm" means either of the following:
    (i) A firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898, including a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica of such a firearm, whether actually manufactured before or after 1898.
    (ii) A firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
    (b) "Lawful purpose" includes the following:
    (i) While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.
    (ii) While transporting a pistol en route to or from his or her home or place of business and place of repair.
    (iii) While moving goods from 1 place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.
    (iv) While transporting a licensed pistol en route to or from a law enforcement agency or for the purpose of having a law enforcement official take possession of the weapon.
    (v) While en route to or from his or her abode or place of business and a gun show or places of purchase or sale.
    (vi) While en route to or from his or her abode to a public shooting facility or public land where discharge of firearms is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.
    (vii) While en route to or from his or her abode to a private property location where the pistol is to be used as is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.

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    Glad you're here. Do you just intend to OC, or did you have something else in mind?

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    You'll need to be aware of these two as well. Read them closely, one word can change the way you understand them.
    750.227, and 750.234d


    750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
    Sec. 227.
    (1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.
    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or by a fine of not more than $2,500.00.


    750.234d

    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    Sec. 234d.
    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.
    (c) A court.
    (d) A theatre.
    (e) A sports arena.
    (f) A day care center.
    (g) A hospital.
    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
    (b) A peace officer.
    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.
    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.

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    It is highly recommended that if possible, you get your CPL. BTW, if you OC, get a digital voice recorder. Video if you can.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Last edited by xmanhockey7; 07-30-2010 at 04:07 PM.

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    Regular Member fozzy71's Avatar
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    750.234d applies to those W/O CPL
    Last edited by fozzy71; 07-29-2010 at 05:23 PM.
    "I like users who quote smellslikemichigan in their signature lines." - fozzy71

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Last edited by xmanhockey7; 07-30-2010 at 04:07 PM.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Well what is "An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws." Is Meijers under that? Is a restaurant like Applebees under that.....?
    Any place the has a Liquor licence,

    See here for a list you can search by County.
    Last edited by autosurgeon; 07-29-2010 at 05:33 PM.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Last edited by xmanhockey7; 07-30-2010 at 04:08 PM.

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    yYou forgot the link auto, Ill see if I can find it.

    No, you do not sound stupid at all.

    When I suggested that one word can change the understanding, this is what I meant. in 234d, the word "Premises" makes a huge difference. Without a CPL you may not carry on the premises of any of the places listed. That means parking lots, grassy areas, nothing. It does mean inside the buildings too, but not just. Park next door, and walk over. But dont forget the "lawful purpose" part of the law, 231a. If you have transported to Krogers for instance, since you cant legally carry there, then you have not met the requirements of the lawful purpose.

    You cannot posses a gun on the premises of any place that has any type of liquor license.

    IANAL, but IMO, if you park in an area where you could legaly OC, then OC for a walk around your car for instance, then put your gun back in its storage area, that you have met the transportation requirement since you have gone from your home to the place you parked, and were legally allowed to OC, and then exercised your right before you stored your weapon and then went to the store. Now that's stoopid. Jumping through hoops at its finest.

    (b) "Lawful purpose" includes the following:

    (vii) While en route to or from his or her abode to a private property location where the pistol is to be used as is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.

    Although there is no case law, Open Carry is a legal activity that meets the standard listed in 231a above.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Last edited by xmanhockey7; 07-30-2010 at 04:08 PM.

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    I found the missing link!

    You can look up places that have a liquor license here:
    http://www2.dleg.state.mi.us/llist/

    Heads up! The law states that you cannot carry on the premisis of any buisiness that has a liquor license. It makes NO DIFFERENCE if they currently are selling alcohol!

    I have heard of places like Little Ceasars Pizza that have a license to sell alcohol, but not all of the stores do sell alcohol. This could land you in trouble.

    That's stoopid.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Should have the law changed or something. They mine as well say it's legal to open carry anywhere except when you're off your own property once you step off that you can no longer open carry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    I just can't understand why they would word that part the way they do. People are not drinking alcohol in Mejiers or Walmart so why shouldn't I be allowed to open carry there? And if I go to a place that mostly serves food why shouldn't I be allowed to carry it provided I don't think. The way the state sets up the open carry law, I can't carry when I go to the grocery store, I can't carry if I go out to eat with friends, I can't carry in so many places I mine as well stick a target on my back.
    Simple. "They" want to find as many back door ways to infringe on your rights as possible, and try to trip you up any way they can, to get into your wallet. It has no more to do with safety than speed limits do. "They" know that the criminals will do it anyhow.

    And you're right, nobody is going to OC into a Meijers, buy a drink, go back into the store or hang out in the parking lot to get drunk. Drink enough long enough to maybe become a threat. And then all of the sudden "go nuts" and start shooting on some armed drunken rampage. Not-Gonna-Happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Should have the law changed or something. They mine as well say it's legal to open carry anywhere except when you're off your own property once you step off that you can no longer open carry.
    We're working on it, but the people in Lansing dont want to budge. Problem is, that some of them are trying to make it worse. That's why this election is so very important.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Yes besides the laws about carrying a gun already make it illegal to carry a gun while intoxicated. So why not just let people carry it into places where there is a liquor license as long as they don't drink.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    First, I am not a lawyer BUT it appears that the Michigan Liquor Commission has defined premises:

    "Licensed premises" means any portion of a building, structure, room,
    or enclosure on real estate that is owned, leased, used, controlled, or
    operated by a licensee in the conduct of the business at the location for
    which the licensee is licensed by the commission, except when otherwise
    specified by commission rule or written commission order.

    http://www.state.mi.us/orr/emi/admin...pt=LG&RngHigh=

    Some here may disagree and it is better safe than sorry, but in my non-lawyer opinion, you could carry on the property, just not in the building where alcohol (beer, wine, liquor) is being stored or sold on the property. Parking lots are apparently OK. But, like I said, better safe than sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    yYou forgot the link auto, Ill see if I can find it.

    No, you do not sound stupid at all.

    When I suggested that one word can change the understanding, this is what I meant. in 234d, the word "Premises" makes a huge difference. Without a CPL you may not carry on the premises of any of the places listed. That means parking lots, grassy areas, nothing. It does mean inside the buildings too, but not just. Park next door, and walk over. But dont forget the "lawful purpose" part of the law, 231a. If you have transported to Krogers for instance, since you cant legally carry there, then you have not met the requirements of the lawful purpose.

    You cannot posses a gun on the premises of any place that has any type of liquor license.

    IANAL, but IMO, if you park in an area where you could legaly OC, then OC for a walk around your car for instance, then put your gun back in its storage area, that you have met the transportation requirement since you have gone from your home to the place you parked, and were legally allowed to OC, and then exercised your right before you stored your weapon and then went to the store. Now that's stoopid. Jumping through hoops at its finest.

    (b) "Lawful purpose" includes the following:

    (vii) While en route to or from his or her abode to a private property location where the pistol is to be used as is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.

    Although there is no case law, Open Carry is a legal activity that meets the standard listed in 231a above.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 07-29-2010 at 06:20 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    "Its not about guns, its about control". And irrational fear. Common sense, and government go together like ice cream and ketchup.

    I agree with you on that. I don't have a problem with a licensed driver in a bar, provided that the driver does not drink. I feel the same way about gunowners.

    If its illegal to drink and drive, then I propose a law prohibiting the use of a parking lot/area within 1 mile of the bar or establishment furnishing alcohol to be consumed on the premisis. With the exception of bar employees, taxies, limousines, designated drivers, and LEOs. Any driver entering/exiting the parking area would have to pass through a mandatory breathalyzer checkpoint.

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    You might be right, but it sounds like thin ice to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    First, I am not a lawyer BUT it appears that the Michigan Liquor Commission has defined premises:

    "Licensed premises" means any portion of a building, structure, room,
    or enclosure on real estate that is owned, leased, used, controlled, or
    operated by a licensee in the conduct of the business at the location for
    which the licensee is licensed by the commission, except when otherwise
    specified by commission rule or written commission order.

    http://www.state.mi.us/orr/emi/admin...pt=LG&RngHigh=

    Some here may disagree and it is better safe than sorry, but in my non-lawyer opinion, you could carry on the property, just not in the building where alcohol (beer, wine, liquor) is being stored or sold on the property. Parking lots are apparently OK. But, like I said, better safe than sorry.
    Are you referring to a bar, or a Krogers/Meijers/Walmart?

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    "Licensed premises" would mean ANY place w/ a liquor license. So, the most useful idea would be to apply it to a Meijer, Kroger, etc. The OP really doesn't need to think about the whole "bar" issue because the "establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act" etc. found in MCL 750.234d would cover that too. If and when he does get a CPL, then the OP can think about that.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    You might be right, but it sounds like thin ice to me.
    Cite?
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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