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Thread: BREAKING! SAF sues in Maryland over discretionary permit issuance

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    BREAKING! SAF sues in Maryland over discretionary permit issuance

    BREAKING: SAF sues in Maryland over discretionary carry



    The Bellevue, WA-based Second Amendment Foundation is at it again, this time filing a federal lawsuit on behalf of a Maryland man whose gun permit renewal was refused because he could not demonstrate “a reasonable precaution against apprehended danger.”



    Thanks to a 25-year-old state statute here in Washington, and a concealed carry law that dates back to 1935, this would not happen in the Evergreen State. More about that in a moment.


    http://www.examiner.com/x-4525-Seatt...ue-law-is-best

    Or try this:

    http://tinyurl.com/24bz7dr

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    Thanks for the update.

    I'll check back in two years...

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    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    Wow, this is wonderful news!
    Which reminds me, tonight I will post my Maryland CHL denial saga.
    You folks wont want to miss it.
    Last edited by Sig229; 08-01-2010 at 01:17 AM.
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig229 View Post
    Wow, this is wonderful news!
    Which reminds me, tonight I will post my Maryland PTCH denial saga.
    You folks wont want to miss it.
    Quick, before Dreamer sees that; edit your post. (PTCH)

  5. #5
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by virginiatuck View Post
    quick, before dreamer sees that; edit your post. (ptch)

    lol...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig229 View Post
    Wow, this is wonderful news!
    Which reminds me, tonight I will post my Maryland CHL denial saga.
    You folks wont want to miss it.
    Ok, where is it?

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    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyad View Post
    Ok, where is it?
    I just got off work (6:40am) So I am typing it now and will post it in a new thread shortly.
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Although I'm sure the folks at SAF are up on their tactics and other Federal cases that might be directly relevant to this suit, I hope they consider bringing in the recent California Prop. 8 Ruling regarding the "Equal Protection" clause, and how it relates to the rights of ALL citizens, and the lack of validity of States to infringe on those rights, REGARDLESS of how the legislators or even the voting populace feel...

    The Prop8 case in CA sets a VERY important precedent, and this can (and SHOULD) be used as a referential precedent in each and every 2A-related case from this day forward...

    I bet the "anti's" won't see THAT one coming...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 08-04-2010 at 11:08 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Only problem is the courts strike down laws they disagree with, and rewrite the ones they want. Just look how the prob 8 came into being, the original marriage law was rewritten by the court to allow gay marriage, then the new law to stop the travesty is struck down, then the constitution is changed to re-enable the law that bans it.
    I still want to know who the heteral sexual was that was allowed to marry another guy to create the unequal protection the judge claims exists. How a state constitution that bans gay marriage is unconstitutional, yet a federal law that says they are not recognized is OK in the same federal court system. Never had an answer to the question if you are married in one state, and travel to another that bans it in their constitution, are you divorced or annulled. As constitution nullifies laws, and a marriage license is not even a law, but like a drivers license is a privilege it can't trump laws and constitution. So just entering a state that has a constitutional ban should nullify any license.

    But I would love to be able to use equal protection for owning machine guns in the home, BHO has them in his.
    Even if you let them claim he is special, they also let criminals own everything, and we should have at least the same rights as the most evil convicted felon among us.

    Sadly I have every expectation the SCOTUS would rule equal protection means everyone is bound by chicago, maryland, hawaii gun laws. That is how they did Brown v Education. Not rule school system was unconstitutional and make them make a new one that was legal, no they said they all must be as bad as the worst school to be fair. If gun laws are unconstitutional then the court is supposed to strike them down, not modify them so the government has cover on the issue.

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    The level of interest exhibited by Marylanders is appalling. Where is MSI and MD Shooters on any of this? Strangely silent.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    There are few Marylander's on OCDO. They're all over at another forum, bitching and moaning how tough their life is, and complaining about how the vast majority of their fellow citizens are not worthy of the right to carry anyway.

    Ben Franklin was right--a People get the government they deserve. MD is a case in point...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonora Rebel View Post
    The level of interest exhibited by Marylanders is appalling. Where is MSI and MD Shooters on any of this? Strangely silent.
    MSI made a $10,000 donation to the SAF. Hardly silent.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
    MSI made a $10,000 donation to the SAF. Hardly silent.
    Montgomery County has the highest per-capita income in the nation. It is one of the wealthiest political districts in the world. The fact that MSI could only come up with $10,000 for a lawsuit that is perhaps the most important Constitutional lawsuit ever to be heard in that state is an appalling testement to the apathy, cluelessness, brainwashed sheep-hood, and downright racism of the majority of Marylanders who live in the affluent urban parts of the state.

    I don't fault MSI. Their donation was generous, and came from some very generous donations from a VERY small group of supporters. It took a lot of very hard work on MSI's part to come up with that amount.

    But when you consider that the Montgomery County traffic court spends that much EVERY DAY defending themselves against traffic ticket defendants who contest speeding camera tickets, it's a trifling, paltry, embarrassing sum.

    Gov. O'Malley will probably spend more than that on the food for the first briefing session he has with the States Attorneys who will be defending against the SAF's lawsuit.

    Considering the standard of living in MD's urban counties, the magnitude of this lawsuit, and the nearly 3 centuries of anti-human-rights oppression on the part of Annapolis, you'd think that there whould have been 2 more zero's on the end of MSI's check...

    The people of MD, by and large, are brainwashed, racist, uneducated, uneducatable, and enjoy their serfdom. Even if SAF wins this case, the fact remains that it will benefit out-of-state carriers MUCH more than it will MD residents, because even if MD becomes Shall Issue, and has reciprocity forced upon them by the courts, the MAJORITY of people in the Urban Counties are so anti-freedom and anti-personal-responsibility that they won't even OWN a firearm, let alone carry one.

    There are more people who own Porsches in MD than are members of MSI. That alone should show you where the priorities of MD's citizenry really are.

    Keep dialing 911, MD. The rest of the country will keep shipping the body bags to you...

    I'm through with feeling sorry for MD. They don't want help from "the outside". They aren't getting my money, my time, my skills, or my sympathy anymore....
    Last edited by Dreamer; 09-17-2010 at 11:38 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    MD consists of more than Montgomery County. Since you have family here, how much did you give? I don't believe there is any amount of money that MSI could give that would satisfy you. Your hate for the state is obvious from your posts. That's fine, You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

    Considering the standard of living in MD's urban counties, the magnitude of this lawsuit, and the nearly 3 centuries of anti-human-rights oppression on the part of Annapolis, you'd think that there whould have been 2 more zero's on the end of MSI's check...
    Wasn't NC a slave state? Is that considered anti human rights oppression?

    They aren't getting my money, my time, my skills, or my sympathy anymore....
    we're heartbroken.
    Last edited by swinokur; 09-18-2010 at 07:39 AM.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post

    The people of MD, by and large, are brainwashed, racist, uneducated, uneducatable, and enjoy their serfdom. Even if SAF wins this case, the fact remains that it will benefit out-of-state carriers MUCH more than it will MD residents, because even if MD becomes Shall Issue, and has reciprocity forced upon them by the courts, the MAJORITY of people in the Urban Counties are so anti-freedom and anti-personal-responsibility that they won't even OWN a firearm, let alone carry one.
    With all due respect, even South Dakota and Pennsylvania's adoption rate for carry licenses is 10 percent.

    So did YOU contribute to the MSI amount or no?

  16. #16
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
    With all due respect, even South Dakota and Pennsylvania's adoption rate for carry licenses is 10 percent.

    So did YOU contribute to the MSI amount or no?

    I've been told by the leadership of MSI (in not so many words) that my money is no good with their organization.

    Plus, I'm a full-time graduate student--I don't have nearly as much disposable income as the average Montgomery County resident.

    I'm willing to drive to MD to testify, produce printed materials do photography and graphic design. But I've been told that people like me (whatever that means) aren't welcome in their little club.

    If they don't want help, I can't force it on them...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 09-19-2010 at 06:54 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    I've been told by the leadership of MSI (in not so many words) that my money is no good with their organization
    Send a money order. That way they won't know who sent it. If you really support the cause, you can find a way.


    Plus, I'm a full-time graduate student--I don't have nearly as much disposable income as the average Montgomery County resident.

    so you're basically saying you sent nothing? You can afford something, even if you can't afford to live with us in Montgomery County

    With all your posts about MD and our oppressive laws you'd think you'd be first in line to donate. Didn't you say you just bought a new Glock? No discretionary income?

    Laughable

  18. #18
    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    Oh, and since the SAF filed suit in YOUR state to protect YOUR rights, how much did you give them? When they filed suit in MY state, I became a Life Member by sending them $150.00

    Oh, I remember now, you're a poor college student who has no discretionary income.

    Never mind.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    I made a special trip to Annapolis earlier this year to testify before the GA Judiciary Committee regarding HB-52. I've worked closely with one of the sponsoring delegates on 2A issues. I have printed hundreds of flyers (on my own dime) regarding VA, NC, WV, PA, and MD firearms rights, that I hand out when I travel, and leave them by the handful in rest stops and book stores. I've taken dozens of people to firing ranges for their "First Shot" exposure to firearms. And I'm currently working my way through the NRA Instructor certifications, with the ultimate goal to get my NC CHP Instructor certification.

    Rather than just engaging in a bunch of internet chest-thumping, and legal-eagle wallet-waving, I actually get out and try to engage the public--educating people, converting "anti's", taking new people shooting, helping female friends find qualified instructors in their area, and helping them shop for new firearms.

    I may not have much "folding money" to send to MSI at the drop of the hat for their "money-bomb du jour", but I've got plenty of "sweat equity" to offer, nearly two decades of professional experience with PR and advertising, and over a decade of experience working with LE and DOJ types.

    (BTW, I saved for that Glock for 4 months, and bought it at a discount.)

    I wasn't even aware that MSI was donating to SAF until they announced the total amount on another forum (which I had, at the time, just joined). But after the way I was treated at a public MSI meeting, and on another forum, to be honest, I am VERY hesitant to donate to them at all.

    The cause is just, but the people behind it have some serious issues.

    My money (what little spare I have right now) goes directly to SAF and NRA. I see no benefit to financially supporting an org that openly states they have written off the majority of the citizens in their own state, and treats non-residents like lepers and pariahs.

    I had issues with the prevailing culture in MD when I was a VA resident for 15 years, and that was LONG before I got into 2A activism. MD is a state where the disenfranchised have been brainwashed into believing that the Government is their caretaker and entitlements are their right; the "ruling class" acts more like 18th century Prussian Nobility than US citizens; and most "activist" groups (on the "left" and the "right") believe that their way is the ONLY way and outsiders are viewed as an enemy even more threatening and suspicious than the Annapolis Oligarchy.

    My energies for MD are hereafter relegated to prayer for my daughters (who live in MD) and training them to fend for themselves. The "official 2A movement" in MD doesn't want outside help unless it comes with dollar signs because in MD, they believe that ANY problem can be solved by throwing piles of money at it, with complete disregard for PR, citizen education, and "boots on the ground activism."

    And I'll not have it.

    If I want to be verbally abused, cyber-stalked, and slandered, I can do that on the Internet on any number of forums without having to pay a membership fee...

    I'm done...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  20. #20
    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    excellent. bye.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Dreamer... you and I have followed the same path to the same ends. The endemic xenephobia and myopia that exists in MD is seemingly viral. "PR" is non-existant.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    General statement (not towards Dreamer) If you can't support MSI, support SAF. If you don't support SAF's efforts in Maryland, then when you're able to get one of those shiny permits to carry (which allows you to do both OC and CC, btw), and eventually when it goes Alaska, don't get or do it because you're a leech. As involved as you are in gun rights (posting on OCDO), you should still kick in a few bucks a month to SAF with the memo "Woollard v. Sheridan".

  23. #23
    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    IMO Very similar to folks who brag about their state's great carry laws while insulting others when they had absolutely nothing to do with the laws passage other than being a beneficiary..

  24. #24
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
    IMO Very similar to folks who brag about their state's great carry laws while insulting others when they had absolutely nothing to do with the laws passage other than being a beneficiary..
    Project much? AzCDL membership and a raft of faxes and e-mails to the reps while HB1108 was cookin'. Let me explain somethin to you xenophobes again. ('Cause you still don't get it.) Laws are what the government says you can't do. Rights are what the government recognizes and you do on your own. You're so stuck on state 'permission' you can't see beyond anything else. That 'anything else' is no permit... no license.... no shuck 'n jive bowing and scraping to that buch'a politico-tards in the MD GA in Annapolis for crumbs. Where's your MSI membership and participation on OCDO? Where's your MSI membership whenever 'gun rights issues' come up on the Baltimore Sun forum countering the rabid Bradyite anti's? NOWHERE! And your 'leadership' hasn't the sense to tell your membership not to show up dressed like freakin' Rambo at your empty holster rallies. I don't care if it was one or ten... that's the 'image' you're presenting. Straight up... your Public Relations model sucks! You don't know your own history... much less the history of anywhere else to even make a comparitive argument. Where's your right to keep and bear arms in Art 28 of the MD Bill of Rights? It was written out during the 1867 MD Constitutional Convention that's where! Since The 2A has finally been incorporated agains the states... it's nothing but a directive from whoever your next Governor is (and it better be Ehrlich) to ther Superintendant of the Maryland State Police to omit all that: (9A) Reason for handgun permit (Be specific): crap from the application and direct them to issue the permit if all else is Kosher. That's all it would take. Rights don't require a reason... that's why they're rights. Prancin' around in cammo with empty holsters won't cut it. Depending on SAF won't cut it either. I'm done.
    Last edited by Sonora Rebel; 09-24-2010 at 03:42 PM.

  25. #25
    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    Excellent. Bye.. Again

    PS-for your edification below is the definition of the meaning of Xenophobia. unless you intended to use it incorrectly

    The Dictionary of Psychology defines it as "a fear of strangers".[6] As defined by the OED, it can mean a fear of or aversion to, not only persons from other countries, but other cultures, subcultures and subsets of belief systems; in short, anyone who meets any list of criteria about their origin, religion, personal beliefs, habits, language, orientations, or any other criteria. While some will state that the "target" group is a set of persons not accepted by the society, in reality only the phobic person need hold the belief that the target group is not (or should not be) accepted by society. While the phobic person is aware of the aversion (even hatred) of the target group, they may not identify it or accept it as a fear.
    Last edited by swinokur; 09-24-2010 at 04:11 PM.

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