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Thread: Should we assist LEOs during 12031(e)?

  1. #1
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    Should we assist LEOs during 12031(e)?

    My apoligies if this had been posted before.

    Here's the scenario. You're out for a walk UOCing, retention holster, of course. An LEO approches, announces he wants to do 12031(e) check, asks you to put your hands on your head. LEO then spends the next 5-10 minutes trying to get the firearm off the holster.

    Question is, does CA statues require/mandate us to "assist" LEOs during 12031(e) checks by:

    1. verbally informing them of the mechanics of the retention holster? OR
    2. complying to their request to have you take out the firearm from the hoslter yourself and hand it to them? OR
    3. volunteering to take the firearm yourself and hand it to them?

    If we are not required/mandated by CA law to "assist",

    a. can we just continue to stand their and let them figure it out until kingdom come?
    b. can we ignore their requests for number 2 above (since you did not refuse 12031(e) check itself, just no. 2 above, are you still in violation of 12031(e) -maybe )?
    Last edited by CA_fr_KS; 07-30-2010 at 02:05 AM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member wewd's Avatar
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    Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to
    this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of
    this section.
    In the past I have assisted officers in operating my retention holster, as none of them who have e-checked me have been able to figure it out on their own. But I will not assist anyone else in the future. It's not my job to help them violate my rights.

    When contacted, I will clearly state that I do not consent to any searches or seizures of my person or property, but I will not resist them if they insist on searching my person. I will only offer passive compliance, not active cooperation. Actively assisting them in the search is not something that I am required nor willing to do. If they can't figure out how my holster works, that's their problem, not mine.

    And now, in a post-McDonald California, I have the Second Amendment on my side.
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  3. #3
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    I am not required to assist in the violation of my 4th amendment rights. If they initiate the search, the contacting law enforcement officer should be sufficiently familiar with firearms and holsters to safely conduct the check without assistance.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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  4. #4
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    No Way, No How

    After informing an officer that I do not consent to any unwarranted, unconstitutional searches or seizures I
    I consider myself detained and in a defacto state of duress and will not assist in the violation of my liberties.
    I will make it a point though to stand very still and quite possibly say nothing. If they are too stupid to manipulate
    something as elementary as your average retention device that is on them. Where is
    Deputy Barney Fife when you need him ?
    DEFENSOR
    Last edited by DEFENSOR; 07-30-2010 at 04:56 PM.

  5. #5
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DEFENSOR View Post
    If they are too stupid to manipulate something as elementary as your average retention device that is on them.
    Precisely. I can imagine scenarios where a police officer lacks the knowledge of how to verify that a firearm is indeed unloaded. We are under no obligation to know ourselves, let alone to instruct somebody else on how to verify the loaded status.

    The retention device is no different. We are not required to know how they operate, nor are we required to instruct in their usage.

    I can even imagine a scenario where the officer was physically unable to access the firearm. Suppose the officer is three feet tall and I am ten feet tall, he couldn't reach it. Or suppose my firearm weighs 100 pounds and the officer is lightly built and cannot lift it. We are under no requirement to be able to bend down or to be able to lift the firearm, let alone provide assistance to lower the firearm within reach or to lift the impossibly heavy gun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigtoe416 View Post
    Precisely. I can imagine scenarios where a police officer lacks the knowledge of how to verify that a firearm is indeed unloaded. We are under no obligation to know ourselves, let alone to instruct somebody else on how to verify the loaded status.
    How do you tell if a musket is loaded w/o looking down the barrel?

  7. #7
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    Why would you help a cop violate you? That is like handing lubrication to a rapist.

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    Regular Member lotar4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merle View Post
    How do you tell if a musket is loaded w/o looking down the barrel?
    Pull the trigger?
    The more we sweat in times of peace, the less we bleed in times of war.

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    The obvious and moral answer is: "Hell no, thats like tipping a rapist!"

    The more realistic answer is if an LEO gives you an order, to bend over, to sit down, to put your hands on your head, you grudgingly comply.
    Not really the case when teaching about elementary retention holsters, after all, he's doing it right, it just must only work for you, right?

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    Both my E-checks, I felt obliged to instruct the LEO how to extract my guns.....before he pulled my pants off!

    #2 I have on video/audio while in San Pedro. You can hear me repeating over and over what to do with a Hogue Speed holster.

    #1 was while carrying my SAA Sheriffs model. The LEO had absolutely no clue how to remove the lanyard loop from the hammer spur. He also required step by step instructions on opening the loading gate to check, and then lowering the hammer so it would once again fit the holster and lanyard.

    Some fun!!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by merle View Post
    How do you tell if a musket is loaded w/o looking down the barrel?
    by law a musket is ONLY loaded when the CAP is in place.

    You may carry a musket fully charged, with power and ball, but cap must not be in place.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iopencarry View Post
    by law a musket is ONLY loaded when the CAP is in place.

    You may carry a musket fully charged, with power and ball, but cap must not be in place.
    Early flintlocks were muskets too. (Brown Bess) Is there any mention in the PC of having the pan primed to be considered loaded. We can LOC a Brown Bess?
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Sons of Liberty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pullnshoot25 View Post
    Why would you help a cop violate you? That is like handing lubrication to a rapist.
    Well, if you have no choice, it's better to hand the rapist the lube, right?

    For that reason, I will assist in the removal of my gun if asked. I don't want to give him/her a reason to drop and damage my gun. You know how some people are:

    http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2...use-lobby.html
    Last edited by Sons of Liberty; 07-30-2010 at 10:29 PM.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sons of Liberty View Post
    Well, if you have no choice, it's better to hand the rapist the lube, right?

    For that reason, I will assist in the removal of my gun if asked. I don't want to give him/her a reason to drop and damage my gun. You know how some people are:

    http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2...use-lobby.html
    A Klutz, a violent felon and a mental patient should never be allowed to own a gun.
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sons of Liberty View Post
    Well, if you have no choice, it's better to hand the rapist the lube, right?

    [/URL]
    potd

    +7

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    There is danger in handling your gun while facing a cop.

    Philip Van Cleave, president of VCDL, tells of a motorist who offered to get his gun from the glove box during a traffic stop. The cop said yes. The motorist did not see the cop's partner walk up on the passenger side. The partner did not hear the discussion between the motorist and the cop at the drivers door. The partner only saw the motorist pulling a gun from the glove box--and shot the motorist dead.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    There is danger in handling your gun while facing a cop.

    Philip Van Cleave, president of VCDL, tells of a motorist who offered to get his gun from the glove box during a traffic stop. The cop said yes. The motorist did not see the cop's partner walk up on the passenger side. The partner did not hear the discussion between the motorist and the cop at the drivers door. The partner only saw the motorist pulling a gun from the glove box--and shot the motorist dead.
    This is why we should neither touch our firearm in the presense of others nor assist the police in the search our our person and property. The liabilty lays solely upon the officer in the event that the firearm is mishandled or circumstances are misconstrued.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by merle View Post
    How do you tell if a musket is loaded w/o looking down the barrel?
    Actually, under 12031's definition of "loaded" for muskets and other such firearms varies from newer firearms:
    (g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of
    this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell,
    consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or
    shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but
    not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof
    attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be
    deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder
    charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.
    Anybody for UMOC (Unprimed Musket Open Carry)?
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    As for the topic of this thread...

    I wouldn't want to be a test case, and I wouldn't put it past an anti-gun LEO to deem your refusal to help him/her remove your firearm as a "refusing" to permit the 12031(e) check.
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  20. #20
    Regular Member wewd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CA_Libertarian View Post
    Anybody for UMOC (Unprimed Musket Open Carry)?
    I have a .54 cal Hawken rifle (percussion cap, not flintlock) that I would love to OC if I ever get finished building it. I bought it as a kit and it ended up being more than a weekend project. A .75 cal Brown Bess would be ideal, however. That's the gun that won us Independence. But I don't have $1250 for one of the repros. http://www.cabelas.com/link-12/produ...2210056a.shtml
    Do you want to enjoy liberty in your lifetime?

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