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Should we assist LEOs during 12031(e)?

K

KS_to_CA

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2008
Messages
443
Location
National City, CA, ,
My apoligies if this had been posted before.

Here's the scenario. You're out for a walk UOCing, retention holster, of course. An LEO approches, announces he wants to do 12031(e) check, asks you to put your hands on your head. LEO then spends the next 5-10 minutes trying to get the firearm off the holster.

Question is, does CA statues require/mandate us to "assist" LEOs during 12031(e) checks by:

1. verbally informing them of the mechanics of the retention holster? OR
2. complying to their request to have you take out the firearm from the hoslter yourself and hand it to them? OR
3. volunteering to take the firearm yourself and hand it to them?

If we are not required/mandated by CA law to "assist",

a. can we just continue to stand their and let them figure it out until kingdom come?
b. can we ignore their requests for number 2 above (since you did not refuse 12031(e) check itself, just no. 2 above, are you still in violation of 12031(e) -maybe )?
 
Last edited:
wewd

wewd

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Joined
May 5, 2009
Messages
664
Location
Oregon
Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to
this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of
this section.
Click to expand...

In the past I have assisted officers in operating my retention holster, as none of them who have e-checked me have been able to figure it out on their own. But I will not assist anyone else in the future. It's not my job to help them violate my rights.

When contacted, I will clearly state that I do not consent to any searches or seizures of my person or property, but I will not resist them if they insist on searching my person. I will only offer passive compliance, not active cooperation. Actively assisting them in the search is not something that I am required nor willing to do. If they can't figure out how my holster works, that's their problem, not mine.

And now, in a post-McDonald California, I have the Second Amendment on my side.
 
ConditionThree

ConditionThree

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May 22, 2006
Messages
2,231
Location
Shasta County, California, USA
I am not required to assist in the violation of my 4th amendment rights. If they initiate the search, the contacting law enforcement officer should be sufficiently familiar with firearms and holsters to safely conduct the check without assistance.
 
D

DEFENSOR

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2009
Messages
184
Location
Utah, USA
No Way, No How

After informing an officer that I do not consent to any unwarranted, unconstitutional searches or seizures I
I consider myself detained and in a defacto state of duress and will not assist in the violation of my liberties.
I will make it a point though to stand very still and quite possibly say nothing. If they are too stupid to manipulate
something as elementary as your average retention device that is on them. Where is
Deputy Barney Fife when you need him ?
DEFENSOR
 
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bigtoe416

bigtoe416

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Messages
1,747
Location
Oregon
DEFENSOR said:
If they are too stupid to manipulate something as elementary as your average retention device that is on them.
Click to expand...

Precisely. I can imagine scenarios where a police officer lacks the knowledge of how to verify that a firearm is indeed unloaded. We are under no obligation to know ourselves, let alone to instruct somebody else on how to verify the loaded status.

The retention device is no different. We are not required to know how they operate, nor are we required to instruct in their usage.

I can even imagine a scenario where the officer was physically unable to access the firearm. Suppose the officer is three feet tall and I am ten feet tall, he couldn't reach it. Or suppose my firearm weighs 100 pounds and the officer is lightly built and cannot lift it. We are under no requirement to be able to bend down or to be able to lift the firearm, let alone provide assistance to lower the firearm within reach or to lift the impossibly heavy gun.
 
M

merle

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2009
Messages
109
Location
Tahoe, Nevada, USA
bigtoe416 said:
Precisely. I can imagine scenarios where a police officer lacks the knowledge of how to verify that a firearm is indeed unloaded. We are under no obligation to know ourselves, let alone to instruct somebody else on how to verify the loaded status.
Click to expand...

How do you tell if a musket is loaded w/o looking down the barrel?
 
H

heliopolissolutions

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2009
Messages
542
Location
, ,
The obvious and moral answer is: "Hell no, thats like tipping a rapist!"

The more realistic answer is if an LEO gives you an order, to bend over, to sit down, to put your hands on your head, you grudgingly comply.
Not really the case when teaching about elementary retention holsters, after all, he's doing it right, it just must only work for you, right?
 
A

Army

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
289
Location
San Luis Obispo, California, USA
Both my E-checks, I felt obliged to instruct the LEO how to extract my guns.....before he pulled my pants off!

#2 I have on video/audio while in San Pedro. You can hear me repeating over and over what to do with a Hogue Speed holster.

#1 was while carrying my SAA Sheriffs model. The LEO had absolutely no clue how to remove the lanyard loop from the hammer spur. He also required step by step instructions on opening the loading gate to check, and then lowering the hammer so it would once again fit the holster and lanyard.

Some fun!!
 
Gundude

Gundude

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Sep 30, 2009
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Location
Sandy Eggo County
Iopencarry said:
by law a musket is ONLY loaded when the CAP is in place.

You may carry a musket fully charged, with power and ball, but cap must not be in place.
Click to expand...

Early flintlocks were muskets too. (Brown Bess) Is there any mention in the PC of having the pan primed to be considered loaded. We can LOC a Brown Bess?
 
Sons of Liberty

Sons of Liberty

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Riverside, California, USA
Last edited:
Gundude

Gundude

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Sandy Eggo County
C

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
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Location
Fairfax Co., VA
There is danger in handling your gun while facing a cop.

Philip Van Cleave, president of VCDL, tells of a motorist who offered to get his gun from the glove box during a traffic stop. The cop said yes. The motorist did not see the cop's partner walk up on the passenger side. The partner did not hear the discussion between the motorist and the cop at the drivers door. The partner only saw the motorist pulling a gun from the glove box--and shot the motorist dead.
 
ConditionThree

ConditionThree

State Pioneer
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
2,231
Location
Shasta County, California, USA
Citizen said:
There is danger in handling your gun while facing a cop.

Philip Van Cleave, president of VCDL, tells of a motorist who offered to get his gun from the glove box during a traffic stop. The cop said yes. The motorist did not see the cop's partner walk up on the passenger side. The partner did not hear the discussion between the motorist and the cop at the drivers door. The partner only saw the motorist pulling a gun from the glove box--and shot the motorist dead.
Click to expand...

This is why we should neither touch our firearm in the presense of others nor assist the police in the search our our person and property. The liabilty lays solely upon the officer in the event that the firearm is mishandled or circumstances are misconstrued.
 
C

CA_Libertarian

State Researcher
Joined
Jul 18, 2007
Messages
2,585
Location
Stanislaus County, California, USA
merle said:
How do you tell if a musket is loaded w/o looking down the barrel?
Click to expand...

Actually, under 12031's definition of "loaded" for muskets and other such firearms varies from newer firearms:
(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of
this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell,
consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or
shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but
not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof
attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be
deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder
charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.
Click to expand...

Anybody for UMOC (Unprimed Musket Open Carry)?
 
wewd

wewd

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Oregon
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