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Thread: WI DNR says you cant carry on 11/19/10

  1. #1
    Regular Member littlewolf's Avatar
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    WI DNR says you cant carry on 11/19/10

    While reading the DNR hunting regs,they say you cannot posess any firearm unless unloaded and in a case on 11/19/10 bewteen 12:00am and 11:59 pm

    It also states you cannot posess a rifle larger than a .22cal. in shotgun designated areas during the deer gun season! what about those who carry AR's for self defence and don't Hunt.

    These regs don't specify where you can't carry? just says you cannot posess!
    Last edited by littlewolf; 07-31-2010 at 07:17 PM.
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  2. #2
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    Well let's see them try to enforce hunting regulations on somebody who isn't hunting.

    Do you know anyone who carries an AR for defense and who isn't living within an area on the USA-Mexico border? Seems a little burdensome without a specific sort of threat.

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    Regular Member grinner's Avatar
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    http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/wildlife/regs/

    http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/...0regs16-19.pdf

    It is illegal to:
    • possess any firearm from 12:00 midnight–11:59 p.m. on November 19, 2010 unless
    the firearm is unloaded and enclosed within a carrying case. Exceptions: target
    shooting at established target ranges, target shooting on private lands by landowners
    and immediate family members who live with them, waterfowl hunting during
    open season, hunting game birds on licensed bird hunting preserves, and hunting
    turkeys and small game in CWD Management Zone units.
    Note: An established target range means an existing location that is set up for
    target shooting with firearms as its major purpose.
    Last edited by grinner; 07-31-2010 at 08:10 PM.

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    Regular Member hardballer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grinner View Post
    http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/wildlife/regs/

    http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/...0regs16-19.pdf

    It is illegal to:
    • possess any firearm from 12:00 midnight–11:59 p.m. on November 19, 2010 unless
    the firearm is unloaded and enclosed within a carrying case. Exceptions: target
    shooting at established target ranges, target shooting on private lands by landowners
    and immediate family members who live with them, waterfowl hunting during
    open season, hunting game birds on licensed bird hunting preserves, and hunting
    turkeys and small game in CWD Management Zone units.
    Note: An established target range means an existing location that is set up for
    target shooting with firearms as its major purpose.

    This will change. The Wisconsin DNR (Dang Near Russian) will go broke trying to fight lawsuit after lawsuit if they try to enforce any of this on a law abiding citizen who's sole intent is to protect themselves. These laws will not withstand Constitutional muster. The DNR is due for a neutering anyway.

    The current laws on the books have been pushed through mainly due to DNR lobbyists smearing the law abiding citizen and putting their law enforcement needs above the Constitution and our need for self-defense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by littlewolf View Post
    While reading the DNR hunting regs,they say you cannot posess any firearm unless unloaded and in a case on 11/19/10 bewteen 12:00am and 11:59 pm

    It also states you cannot posess a rifle larger than a .22cal. in shotgun designated areas during the deer gun season! what about those who carry AR's for self defence and don't Hunt.

    These regs don't specify where you can't carry? just says you cannot posess!
    I suspect those restrictions will come under scrutiny post McDonald. That is if they are ever contested. They are relativley minor infractions where the cost to contest them is considerably more than the fine. I think that is by intention on the part of the DNR for most of it's penalties. The DNR has unique Rule Making authority in Wisconsin. That means any restriction it generates is considered law until proved otherwise in a court of law. By keeping fines below the cost of litigation the DNR avoids many legal contests. I don't believe complaining about the constitutionality will have any effect. Getting an AG opinion may be effective, but that avenue is beyond our reach. However if we could find a couple of sympathetic DAs to ask for a ruling we could make some progress.

    I see an even bigger problem on the horizon. That is the inevitable clash between constitutional amendments Article I section 25 and Article I section 26. Section 25 reads "The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose". Section 26 reads "The people have the right to fish, hunt, trap and take game subject only to reasonable regulations as prescribed by law".
    Does the rule making authority as it now exists meet the "reasonable regulations as prescribed by law" test? Do the DNR hunting firearm regulations trump the fundamental right to keep and bear arms under Art sec 25 for hunting because they are considered reasonable under Art I sec 26? Only the state supreme court can fix this conundrum and I doubt that a test case will ever reach that level.

    I think there may be one glimmer of hope. Now that McDonald v Chicago has confirmed that the second amendment is incorporated to the states, all levels of law enforcement in Wisconsin are prohibited by federal law from influencing state legislation. Because the DNR is a law enforcement agency perhaps now it's strangle hold on the state legislature can be removed.

    These are just some of my opinions. They and three bucks will buy you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

    Ref. Law Enforcement Misconduct Statute 42 U.S.C. ss14141
    Last edited by Captain Nemo; 07-31-2010 at 08:46 PM. Reason: Added reference

  6. #6
    Regular Member littlewolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    Well let's see them try to enforce hunting regulations on somebody who isn't hunting.

    Do you know anyone who carries an AR for defense and who isn't living within an area on the USA-Mexico border? Seems a little burdensome without a specific sort of threat.
    Yes,I have a cousin who carries his Kimber or H&K AND one of his AR,s when he's up at the cabin just south of Dunbar.
    I live in the boonies in Waupaca Co. I can't go check my stands to make sure their still there for. opening day and carry, by their rule.
    Here's a hypothetical situation; The dnr also has ammo restrictions,I'm in a shotgun county,Icannot posess buckshot during the deer gun season.Hunting hours are over for the day and I have a 1mile walk back to the truck,slugs aint worth a damn in the dark so I load up with 00 for protection and maybe a slug in there to ,I get stopped by Wally Warden and get busted for hunting after dark and illegal ammo. how do you fight that?
    Owner Little Wolf Firearms , US ARMY RETIRED 101st Airborne & 84th DIV TRNG Small arms instructor.
    Remember , Gun Control is " USING BOTH HANDS!"

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    There are a lot of things that the DNR says that just try to make people think they are above the law. People will say that they can just come into your house to search your freezer without a warrant. I can tell you that I will never let them into my house without a warrant and I will not stop carrying on the day before deer season. We have way too many wolves up where we go and I never go into the woods unarmed anymore.

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    Regular Member littlewolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grinner View Post
    http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/wildlife/regs/

    http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/...0regs16-19.pdf

    It is illegal to:
    • possess any firearm from 12:00 midnight–11:59 p.m. on November 19, 2010 unless
    the firearm is unloaded and enclosed within a carrying case. Exceptions: target
    shooting at established target ranges, target shooting on private lands by landowners
    and immediate family members who live with them, waterfowl hunting during
    open season, hunting game birds on licensed bird hunting preserves, and hunting
    turkeys and small game in CWD Management Zone units.
    Note: An established target range means an existing location that is set up for
    target shooting with firearms as its major purpose.
    As for the established target range, I have a rangeset up in my back yard. I'm a dealer and install scopes,if someone comes in on the 19th to get one put on and sighted in legally I can't because I do this out of my residance.
    Owner Little Wolf Firearms , US ARMY RETIRED 101st Airborne & 84th DIV TRNG Small arms instructor.
    Remember , Gun Control is " USING BOTH HANDS!"

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    Regular Member littlewolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by junkie View Post
    There are a lot of things that the DNR says that just try to make people think they are above the law. People will say that they can just come into your house to search your freezer without a warrant. I can tell you that I will never let them into my house without a warrant and I will not stop carrying on the day before deer season. We have way too many wolves up where we go and I never go into the woods unarmed anymore.
    [I]hear ya, the frezzer thin happend to a freind,beat on the door put my freinds wife on the floor at gunpoint and cleaned out the freezer.all because a dnr snich told a BS strory he got his meat back but it cost him several days of work going to court
    Owner Little Wolf Firearms , US ARMY RETIRED 101st Airborne & 84th DIV TRNG Small arms instructor.
    Remember , Gun Control is " USING BOTH HANDS!"

  10. #10
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Notice there's no exception for law enforcement or military or any of those normally protected classes?

    I think we need to have a little get-together that day, pockets of open carriers all across the state.
    It's a Friday; anyone up for a TGIF dinner?
    Let the DNR try to charge us... they'll cost the state a whole lotta money paying out reparations!
    Last edited by MKEgal; 08-01-2010 at 12:54 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran logan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Notice there's no exception for law enforcement or military or any of those normally protected classes?

    I think we need to have a little get-together that day, pockets of open carriers all across the state.
    It's a Friday; anyone up for a TGIF dinner?
    Let the DNR try to charge us... they'll cost the state a whole lotta money paying out reparations!
    I could use some extra money...
    Logan - Laugh lots, Love Often, and Defend the Irreplaceable
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    29.312
    29.312 Rules regulating the sighting of a firearm.

    29.312(1)
    (1) In this section, "immediate family" means persons who are related as spouses, as siblings, or as parent and child.


    29.312(2)
    (2) The department may not promulgate or enforce a rule that prohibits a person from sighting a firearm on land owned or leased by that person or a member of that person's immediate family during the 24-hour period prior to the opening date for hunting deer with firearms in any area where there is an open season for hunting deer with firearms.

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    The DNR is a law enforcement agency of the State. As a result it must uphold constitutional rights. It can not enter a private residence without due process. Under federal constitutional rights and Article I section 11 of the Wisconsin constitution a warrant is required or articulate probable cause, mere suspicion is not probable cause. The only circumstance under which the DNR can lawfully enter private property without due process or owner permission is as follows.

    29.924(5)
    (5) Access to private land . The department may, after making reasonable efforts to notify the owner or occupant, enter private lands to retrieve or diagnose dead or diseased wild animals and take actions reasonably necessary to prevent the spread of contagious disease in the wild animals.

    my opinion.

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    This is the text of an email I sent to Randy Stark, Chief Warden of the DNR and Michael Lutz, DNR lawyer supervisor. It concerns the prohibiton of firearm possession within the 24 hours preceeding the November regular gun deer hunting season. I will post any reply I receive.

    Mr. Stark:
    I'm sure you are aware that as a result of the SCOTUS decisions in Heller v Washington DC and McDonald v City of Chicago that the DNR rule that people may not possess firearms during the 24 hours preceeding the opening of the gun deer season ( Nov. 19,2010) is, in my opinion, no longer enforceable as written.
    The Heller decision affimed that the second amendment to the U.S. Constitution is an individual right granted to all law abiding citizens of the United States. The McDonald decision furthur added that the second amendment is incorporated to the states and just as the federal government cannot deny firearm possession to qualified private citizens nor can the states or local governments.

    Furthermore the rule eviscerates Article I section 25 of the Wisconsin constitution which gives citizens the right to possess and carry arms for personal protection (security, defense) or for that matter any lawful purpose. The Wisconsin Supreme Court ruled in State v Hamdan that Article I section 25 may not be eviscerated by the State. The State must provide a manner by which the right may be exercised.

    It is my opinion that DNR rules can not trump federal and state constitutional law.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlewolf View Post
    As for the established target range, I have a rangeset up in my back yard. I'm a dealer and install scopes,if someone comes in on the 19th to get one put on and sighted in legally I can't because I do this out of my residance.
    Yes, you may. The DNR administrative enforcement policy is such that you may shoot in your own backyard. You may also open carry in a city. I have discussed OC on the 19th with "Official" DNR representatives.
    It is illegal to:
    • possess any firearm from 12:00 midnight–11:59 p.m. on November 19, 2010 unless
    the firearm is unloaded and enclosed within a carrying case. Exceptions: target
    shooting at established target ranges, target shooting on private lands by landowners
    and immediate family members who live with them,
    waterfowl hunting during
    open season, hunting game birds on licensed bird hunting preserves, and hunting
    turkeys and small game in CWD Management Zone units.
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 08-01-2010 at 11:04 AM.

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    IK:
    Since when does our constitutional rights end at the city limits?

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    IK:
    Since when does our constitutional rights end at the city limits?
    Even the SCOTUS has proclaimed that the RTKABA is not unlimited. I do not feel that the exact Constitutional limits have been completely defined yet. Go ahead and open carry and then be prepared to fight it in court. Since the DNR Administrative Code has not been challenged on a Constitutional basis, you would be creating case law should you be found guilty and you appeal to the State Supreme Court. There has been no push to modify the current Code. Until then, the wardens may continue to enforce it and we are free to challenge it.

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    IK:

    Nice spin.

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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    I doubt that the majority of people on here encounter a DNR warden on a daily basis.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    Well let's see them try to enforce hunting regulations on somebody who isn't hunting.
    That's what they did to me with that "improper transport" stuff last month...

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Does anyone else see a LEO exemption? I don't. So, LEO can't have a loaded weapon that day. I guess we all need to leave the state.

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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    That's what they did to me with that "improper transport" stuff last month...
    Yes, and look where it got them.

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    Some exerpts from State v. Hamdan.


    VI. CONSTITUTIONALITY "AS APPLIED"

    ¶38. The adoption of Article I, Section 25 did not affect prior judicial interpretations of the CCW statute or the availability of privilege defenses for CCW crimes, but it did create an obligation to protect rights guaranteed by the amendment.

    ¶39. The State's broad police power to regulate the ownership and use of firearms and other weapons continues, notwithstanding Article I, Section 25. Nonetheless, the amendment's broad declaration of the right to keep and bear arms inevitably impacts the exercise of that power. In this state, constitutional rights do not expand the police power; they restrict the police power.


    ¶41. Article I, Section 25 does not establish an unfettered right to bear arms. Clearly, the State retains the power to impose reasonable regulations on weapons, including a general prohibition on the carrying of concealed weapons. However, the State may not apply these regulations in situations that functionally disallow the exercise of the rights conferred under Article I, Section 25. The State must be especially vigilant in circumstances where a person's need to exercise the right is the most pronounced. If the State applies reasonable laws in circumstances that unreasonably impair the right to keep and bear arms, the State's police power must yield in those circumstances to the exercise of the right. The prohibition of conduct that is indispensable to the right to keep (possess) or bear (carry) arms for lawful purposes will not be sustained.

    ¶71. In circumstances where the State's interest in restricting the right to keep and bear arms is minimal and the private interest in exercising the right is substantial, an individual needs a way to exercise the right without violating the law. We hold, in these circumstances, that regulations limiting a constitutional right to keep and bear arms must leave some realistic alternative means to exercise the right.
    Last edited by Captain Nemo; 08-01-2010 at 04:52 PM.

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    Damn straight. My guess is that the DNR really doesn't have much of a leg to stand on with that rule, if it were to ever really be challenged. It would be nice if it were to get in front of the A.G. for review, but until someone actually ends up getting ticketed and fighting it, it probably wont.

    Let's face it, as stated above, the DNR is prime for a good public neutering. In the north where I'm from, it would be hard to find more than a handfull of people that have the time of day for the DNR, and I would suspect that if a person were to take pretty much any DNR ticket in front of a jury, they'd be hard pressed to get a conviction due to those feelings. Take your pick... you have the bears, wolves, fishers, DNR, and now cougars. And around my neck of the woods, there's enough hate for all of them to go around.

  25. #25
    Founder's Club Member bnhcomputing's Avatar
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    I asked this very same question to the Secretary of the DNR. (Verbal conversation, no record). He tried the , "we can regulate hunting" BS with me and never gave me a straight answer.

    Every Warden I've talked with, from at least four different counties have all said the same thing, "we would have to actually OBSERVE someone in the act of 'hunting' before we could do anything."

    It is my belief/opinion that location (in the city, or out on the back forty) and time of year, date, doesn't matter, your right to carry is still constitutionally protected.

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