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Can a foreign tourist carry or transport a cap and ball revolver in your state?

Dozy Rider

New member
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Messages
3
Location
Boone, NC
I hope this question fits here - it's a little unusual and I don't know where else to ask it.

I'm an English tourist travelling around the US by bicycle. The bicycle has bags on it, much like motorcycle bags.

I'm not going to be a resident of any state, so I can't buy a firearm. And I'm assuming that as I can't buy a firearm I can't get a CCW permit. But according to the ATF I can buy a cap and ball revolver. So long as I don't modify it for rimfire ammunition or use it to commit a crime, federal law says it's not a firearm - just a deadly weapon.

As far as I can see, in most states I can buy a cap and ball revolver through the mail. Legally my bicycle, although it's not a vehicle, is (I think) a 'conveyance'. I see that word in plenty of statutes, and I suppose it's used to include horse-drawn buggies or whatever. So if a bicycle is a conveyance I am hoping I can transport a C&B revolver in the same way that a motorcyclist carries a firearm, i.e. in a fastened bicycle bag, unloaded. If I go to a range or some private land where I have permission to shoot, I can remove the gun from the bag and fire it.

But when I park the bike to go to a store or a coffee shop I can't unclip the bag and carry it with me - that would be 'concealed carry.' So I have to leave the bag on the bike and hope it doesn't get stolen. (Is it an offence not to lock the bag and the bike?)

When I camp in a park or on the beach or under a bridge or something, what then? If I lock the bike to a tree and lock the bags on the bike and leave the gun in the bags, will I be OK? (So long as I'm not in a place where guns are prohibited.)

When I stay in a motel, what then? Can I have the gun in my room? How do I get it into the room without breaking the concealed carry law? (Actually I should be OK on this one - in most cases motels allow me to wheel my vehicle right into the room - perhaps this is the only time when a bicycle and a gun is a good combo.)

If anyone is still reading can they please tell me how your state laws would affect me? I'd really appreciate it.

In the unlikely event that your state allows me to open carry it in a holster, expect a visit!
 
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OC4me

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2009
Messages
750
Location
Northwest Kent County, Michigan
I think that your best bet on a safe vacation (legally and otherwise) is Vermont. I'm somewhat sure that it doesn't matter whether you are a U.S. citizen for that state (perhaps a residency requirement - check on this). Open or conceal carry is legal (no permit required for either). I hear it is a very pretty state too!

You'd almost have to post this question in each State forum (check the forum rules first) to get a specific state-by-state answer as gun laws (and the consequences for breaking them) vary widely by jurisdiction.

Good luck!

I'm also pretty sure that foreigners also can obtain Utah concealed weapon permits (unless they repealed that provision in their law) ... assuming you can find a Utah-specific class in your area. There are Utah classes held in varius states from time-to-time. That might help you stay legal in some areas.
 
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simmonsjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2009
Messages
1,661
Location
Mattaponi, Virginia, United States
You don't know what your talking about.

Did you read my question? It's not about firearms.
A cap and ball revolver is a firearm. "Cap guns" (childrens noise makers - toys) can sometimes be converted to a real rimfire cartridge.

If you wish to carry a handgun in the US (any type, modern or relic), immigrate.

My personal belief is you should be able to carry here on vacation, as the right to bear arms, as defined by our constitution, pre-dates government. Therefor residency/citizenship shouldn't be relevant.

PS - attempting to use a cap-n-ball revolver for self defense requires a LOT of skill.
 
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Dozy Rider

New member
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Messages
3
Location
Boone, NC
A cap and ball revolver is a firearm.

Not according to the ATF.

Seems like I'm in the wrong place for awareness of antique/replica laws. SimmonsJoe, I suggest you do some reading before giving your postings such rude and ridiculous headings.
 
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PT111

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Messages
2,243
Location
, South Carolina, USA
I cannot say for other states but in South Carolina you should be good to go.

1) "Handgun" means any firearm designed to expel a projectile and designed to be fired from the hand, but shall not include any firearm generally recognized or classified as an antique, curiosity, or collector's item, or any that does not fire fixed cartridges.

A C&B revolver would not be a handgun in SC and I don't know of any other restrictions on carrying one so you should be fine. I will say that I would not push it by OC'ing it in SC as OC is not permitted except while hunting or fishing and traveling to and from and I don't know that all LEO would be aware of the difference but normally as long as you behave in SC you are fine. The law does permit the carry of a handgun in a saddlebag of a motorcycle but it does not say anything about a bicycle.
 

SlackwareRobert

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2008
Messages
1,338
Location
Alabama, ,
I am curious how you are going to sneak it through customs myself. They used to have a real problem if the gun had no serial number, and I bet they are even more ignorant and asinine now with Janet 'system works' in charge.

AL law is very bad for vehicles, so the definition of your bike is the main issue you need to worry about. No case law to CYA.

Best of luck with your touring of what used to be "the land of the free".
 

flb_78

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2010
Messages
544
Location
Gravel Switch, KY
I think legally, you would be ok since even a child can buy a cap and ball revolver.

BUT...

Do not expect every law enforcement officer to the difference between a cap and ball revolver and a firearm.

There are a few states the regulate the sale and transfer of C&B products. Illinois and New York are 2 that I know off the top of my head.

You will really need know which states you will be passing through and find their statutes on C&B products.
 

Felid`Maximus

Activist Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2007
Messages
1,711
Location
Reno, Nevada, USA
I hope this question fits here - it's a little unusual and I don't know where else to ask it.

I'm an English tourist travelling around the US by bicycle. The bicycle has bags on it, much like motorcycle bags.

I'm not going to be a resident of any state, so I can't buy a firearm. And I'm assuming that as I can't buy a firearm I can't get a CCW permit. But according to the ATF I can buy a cap and ball revolver. So long as I don't modify it for rimfire ammunition or use it to commit a crime, federal law says it's not a firearm - just a deadly weapon.

As far as I can see, in most states I can buy a cap and ball revolver through the mail. Legally my bicycle, although it's not a vehicle, is (I think) a 'conveyance'. I see that word in plenty of statutes, and I suppose it's used to include horse-drawn buggies or whatever. So if a bicycle is a conveyance I am hoping I can transport a C&B revolver in the same way that a motorcyclist carries a firearm, i.e. in a fastened bicycle bag, unloaded. If I go to a range or some private land where I have permission to shoot, I can remove the gun from the bag and fire it.

But when I park the bike to go to a store or a coffee shop I can't unclip the bag and carry it with me - that would be 'concealed carry.' So I have to leave the bag on the bike and hope it doesn't get stolen. (Is it an offence not to lock the bag and the bike?)

When I camp in a park or on the beach or under a bridge or something, what then? If I lock the bike to a tree and lock the bags on the bike and leave the gun in the bags, will I be OK? (So long as I'm not in a place where guns are prohibited.)

When I stay in a motel, what then? Can I have the gun in my room? How do I get it into the room without breaking the concealed carry law? (Actually I should be OK on this one - in most cases motels allow me to wheel my vehicle right into the room - perhaps this is the only time when a bicycle and a gun is a good combo.)

If anyone is still reading can they please tell me how your state laws would affect me? I'd really appreciate it.

In the unlikely event that your state allows me to open carry it in a holster, expect a visit!
In Nevada you can carry it openly in a holster as long as it visible to ordinary observation. Riding your bike you could also transport it in the bags, but if you "carry" the bike in your hands (as opposed to riding it,) it might be found to be concealed. You could also leave it in the parked bike as long as the bike is not in a prohibited area. In Nevada it is best to carry it openly in a belt holster. In Nevada the only places you couldn't really open carry into legally would be the school property, university property, child care facilities, postal property, the insides of buildings owned by the Federal government, and the secure parts of the airport. "State Parks" (which are like National Parks but owned by the State instead,) disallow open carry but allow a firearm that is unloaded and inside of a "vehicle." Private businesses like stores, coffee shops, motels, and hotels are legal for open carry, although private property reserves the right to kick you out if they don't like you. You can carry in a bar but it is illegal to be drunk while armed.

If you go to this thread you can find a pamphlet that summarizes the Nevada laws:

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...pen)-Carry-Pamphlet&highlight=Nevada+Pamphlet

Have fun in the United States. It might be difficult to find a path that leads between all the states that you want to visit that would work by bicycle. In many states there may not be a legal method for you to transport it through. (Title 18 USC 926A uses the federal definition of firearm I believe.)
 
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simmonsjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2009
Messages
1,661
Location
Mattaponi, Virginia, United States
Holy **** everyone stop telling this guy lies! Your going to cause him to be arrested

You cannot carry ANY FIREARM. Just because it is NOT a HANDGUN is irrelevant.
(This is federal law and covers all 50 states! For more info check the Law Library)

CAP & BALL revolver = FIREARM
CAP & BALL ≠ HANDGUN

You can't purchase ANY FIREARM, regardless if it is a handgun.

-----
This is like be telling you your not allowed to drive a vehicle in the US, and you arguing it's OK to drive an SUV because it isn't a car.
(This is an analogy, not legal advice about driving.)
 
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flb_78

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2010
Messages
544
Location
Gravel Switch, KY
A cap and ball revolver is not a regulated firearm according to Federal law.

Antique firearms and replicas are exempted from the aforementioned restrictions. Antique firearms are defined as: any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898, and any replica of a firearm as designed above if the replica is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire ammunition, or uses fixed ammunition, which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels or commercial trade, any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. (Note: Antiques exemptions vary considerably under state laws.)
 
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flb_78

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2010
Messages
544
Location
Gravel Switch, KY
According to North American Arms, they cannot ship a cap and ball revolver to District of Columbia, Illinois, Michigan, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island, or Washington.

Anyone else can order one online and have it shipped directly to their house with no FFL involved.

http://www.naaminis.com/naac&b.html
 

flb_78

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2010
Messages
544
Location
Gravel Switch, KY
Right off the ATF site.

Q: I am a nonimmigrant alien. Do I need a Form 6 NIA import permit to import a muzzle loading gun that is considered an antique firearm under the Gun Control Act?

No. Because antique firearms are not considered firearms for purposes of the Gun Control Act, none of the import regulations apply to the importation of antique firearms. Moreover, a nonimmigrant alien may possess antique firearms, even if the alien does not fall within an exception to the nonimmigrant alien prohibition. If you are not sure if your firearm is an antique firearm as defined by the Gun Control Act, contact ATF’s Firearms Technology Branch.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nonimmigrant-aliens.html
 

ccwinstructor

Centurion
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
919
Location
Yuma, Arizona, USA
Come to Arizona, I believe that you would be legal there.

It is legal for a non-resident alien to posess a firearm if they have a hunting license or a letter from a club or organization that conducts organized shooting matches, as I recall. Therefore, you might want to join the NRA or a state muzzleloading club that conducts matches.

(y) Provisions Relating to Aliens Admitted Under Nonimmigrant Visas. - (2) Exceptions. - Subsections (d)(5)(B), (g)(5)(B), and (s)(3)(B)(v)(II) do not apply to any alien who has been lawfully admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa, if that
alien is -
(A) admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or sporting purposes or is in possession of a hunting license or permit lawfully issued in the United States;

http://www.alphecca.com/?p=1180

Basically, you need to have a hunting license. As long as you follow all other state laws, a legal non-resident alien can buy and use firearms. And it doesn’t matter the type of firearm either. Milsurp, handgun, EBR, you name it.

But overall, this behavior is discrimination against potential citizens who have been held to a higher standard than your average American. They do not deserve this treatment. Justice must be blind or equal or it isn’t justice. As an LPR, I’m glad I don’t live there.
 

simmonsjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2009
Messages
1,661
Location
Mattaponi, Virginia, United States
Dozy Rider

BE CAREFUL -- Many cap and ball revolvers are of newer manufacture. This includes replicas which may look, or be of an older design.

Finding a working (and safe) cap-n-ball revolver of sufficient vintage will be expensive.

Good luck, and I'm glad I was wrong. At least you can get a taste of your rights!!!

PS - Before you leave the states, make sure to visit a range that rents fully automatic weapons. Give it a go before you ... go. If you come through Richmond, VA, There is a range, (Dominion Range) which rents full auto Mac-10 and Uzi, with silencers.
 
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Jim Macklin

New member
Joined
Aug 5, 2010
Messages
8
Location
Wichita, KS
Federal and State

Federal law may not classify a cap and ball [muzzle loading, not a fixed cartridge] as not a regulated firearm.
But be assured most states definition is any device that expels a projectile by means of expanding gas.
There are some states where a citizen or a lawful visitor with a visa can open carry.
There are many questions that are hard to answer and many dealers are not experts at law. Many times a licensed dealer will refuse to make a lawful sale because they just don't know.
In some states having a replica of a 1849 Colt .31 caliber revolver in a bicycle bag will be considered as unlawfully concealed and other states, maybe just across a river will have greatly different laws.
Just about every state is now on-line with their state police and attorney general's web pages. Most states have a rifle and pistol association and sometimes they have links to their laws.
The average cop on the street does not know all the laws, often if you're stopped for any reason [traffic accident, stolen bicycle] the officer who comes to investigate may react to finding that you have a cap&ball in your saddlebags with lots more questions. It might take several hours before the police get an answer from somebody who may be up their chain of command [and they may not know either].
So it will be in your interest to get copies of all the laws and contact numbers for state's attorney general, the state rifle association, the NRA can be helpful [membership is not restricted to US citizens and the magazines and technical advise is very good].
Federal law regulates interstate commerce, state laws define criminal acts, you have to know and follow both...
 

Uziel Gal

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
93
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
BE CAREFUL -- Many cap and ball revolvers are of newer manufacture. This includes replicas which may look, or be of an older design.

Finding a working (and safe) cap-n-ball revolver of sufficient vintage will be expensive.

Good luck, and I'm glad I was wrong. At least you can get a taste of your rights!!!

PS - Before you leave the states, make sure to visit a range that rents fully automatic weapons. Give it a go before you ... go. If you come through Richmond, VA, There is a range, (Dominion Range) which rents full auto Mac-10 and Uzi, with silencers.

The Gun Control Act of 1968 defines antique firearms as

(16) The term "antique firearm"
means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm
with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion
cap, or similar type of ignition
system) manufactured in or before
1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described
in subparagraph (A) if such
replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned
for using rimfire or conventional
centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional
centerfire fixed ammunition which
is no longer manufactured in the
United States and which is not
readily available in the ordinary
channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle
loading shotgun, or muzzle loading
pistol, which is designed to use
black powder, or a black powder
substitute, and which cannot use
fixed ammunition. For purposes of
this subparagraph, the term "antique
firearm" shall not include any weapon
which incorporates a firearm frame or
receiver, any firearm which is converted
into a muzzle loading weapon,
or any muzzle loading weapon which
can be readily converted to fire fixed
ammunition by replacing the barrel,
bolt, breechblock, or any combination
thereof.

Yes it is a firearm but due to it being an "antique firearm" it basically exists in a pre-1968 world where you could still order one out of the Sears catalogue.
 
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