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Thread: Protest Wichita’s Ban on Loaded Open Carry

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    Regular Member Damiansar-15's Avatar
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    Protest Wichita’s Ban on Loaded Open Carry

    All,

    I have attached a draft brochure that will be handed out at the Wichita Open Carry event. I welcome any feedback, suggestions, etc...

    What: Legally unloaded Open Carry Event
    Where: 300 N. Mead. Warren Theater Square in Old Town, Wichita, Kansas
    When: August 15, 2010 from noon – 1:00pm
    Why: Communicate and Protest Wichita’s ban on loaded open carry by handing out pro-constitution, self defense brochures near Warren Theater Square, while carrying holstered, unloaded pistols.

    Please make sure your pistol is unloaded and holstered when you open carry, since Wichita has a ban on loaded open carry. You can also stop by the police station at the square to let them know what you are up to before open carrying in the square. I also recommend dressing as conservative as possible and avoid any loud, political shirts, signs, banners, etc... I have contacted WPD and the local media, so I expect what little time we spend handing out brochures will go a long way in bringing awareness to self-defense issues in Wichita.

    For carry details see Wichita ordinance attached:
    ORDINANCE NO.48-580 SECTION 5.88.010 OF THE CODE OF THE CITY OF WICHITA, KANSAS, PERTAINING TO THE CRIME OF UNLAWFUL USE OF WEAPONS
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Damiansar-15; 08-03-2010 at 10:16 PM.

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    If the police seize anyone to inspect firearms, make sure you keep your cool but try to record them - the action, absent reasonable suspicion of a crime, violates the 4th amendment - lawyer up fast.

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    Thank you Damian for taking the lead in fighting for open carry rights in Wichita. Your efforts will help the whole state of Kansas.

    If you live in Wichita or Sedgwick County please support this endeavor.

    It takes courage to stand up for individual liberties.

    Semper Fidelis,

    Marine0300

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    Regular Member Damiansar-15's Avatar
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    Thanks for the tip...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    If the police seize anyone to inspect firearms, make sure you keep your cool but try to record them - the action, absent reasonable suspicion of a crime, violates the 4th amendment - lawyer up fast.
    My brother is WPD and he suggested that I swing by the station to "check-in" right before I start the event. I have already contacted WPD and they are very used to folks staging protests in this square. I've been told that WPD will probably be video taping from the roof, but I will have lawyer/digital video there, as well.

    Although, I suspect that there is not much training in this area regarding legal, unloaded open carry, I believe WPD does have the right to check the weapon (similar to California) to make sure the Wichtia ordinance is not being broken. After they confirm that the weapon is unloaded, you are correct in that they no longer have probable cause to continue question, ask for ID, etc...

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    Sounds fun i live in oklahoma but i might come up there for it.

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    I'll be there for sure. Good job Dame! You are going about this the correct way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damiansar-15 View Post

    Although, I suspect that there is not much training in this area regarding legal, unloaded open carry, I believe WPD does have the right to check the weapon (similar to California) to make sure the Wichtia ordinance is not being broken. After they confirm that the weapon is unloaded, you are correct in that they no longer have probable cause to continue question, ask for ID, etc...
    This is also very true and correct information.

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    Wichita background on carry laws

    The Wichita City Council are not a highly trained and qualified historian or even lawyers.
    They have had lots of council members over the past 30 years. To answer the question asked in your open carry hand-out'''
    "Why does Wichita pass ordinances that
    disregard the intent of the State
    Constitution recognizing the right to bear
    arms for self-defense and security?"
    The State Constitution was before the Kansas Supreme Court in 1905. That court said the right to arms was strictly a right of the State of have a militia. Kansas brought you John Brown, and later the whole idea that the US Second Amendment applied to collective groups called militia.
    We all know that SCOUS changed that complete3ly with HELLER and McDONALD.
    What you may not know is that there is a voter referendum to make that read, the individual. see www.ksraweb.net
    If that November ballot issue fails, it won't change Heller or McDonald, but you can bet the house that it will be used in the state of Kansas and perhaps other states to attack our constitutional rights.
    Wichita Code 5.88.010 has been changed about 4 times since 2006 when the State passed concealed carry. The cities in Kansas were advised by the Kansas League of Municipalities that they should ban concealed carry on any publicly owned property, such as sidewalks, parks, gold courses and they did not need to post any signs, just publish it in some rarely read newspaper.
    That got the Kansas Legislature angry and they passed HB 2528 shortly after the first CCH licenses were issue January 3, 2007. The change in June 2006 in response made open carry of all firearms within the city lawful IF YOU HAD A CCH. But the city kept the ban on open loaded. As we know, if a city cop saw a gun openly carried, you would most likely be proned with a cocked pistol or maybe a shotgun, even if unloaded.
    It wasn't until recently that the city changed it to make it apply only to lawfully carried handguns if you have the license under KSA 75-7c.
    Shush, they still don't know that any 18 year old with a fishing license can carry concealed WHILE fishing.
    I've said this on www.ksccw.com and I'll say it here. I've been doing this subject for about 50 years, watching legislatures, cops and judges. The sheep are dumb and easily frightened. I've carried openly pre 1970 when I lived in Illinois, I've carried openly in Arizona. I much prefer concealed in a city/urban area, does not disturb the sheep who vote.
    Recently the City of Topeka had TWO [only 2] incidents with a sheep calling 911 and reporting a man with a gun. The city almost changed their law just like Wichita, but Topekans were lucky, there were some wiser heads. Wichita city council is really dumb.
    As long as the Constitutional right to carry individually is on the November ballot, cool it, be very, very careful. Because a margin of one vote could pass or reject the revision.

    I advise caution, until after the election this November. Because MSNBC, ABC, NBC, and CBS and the print news will spin what ever happens and wake the sheep up.

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    Regular Member Damiansar-15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Macklin View Post
    As long as the Constitutional right to carry individually is on the November ballot, cool it, be very, very careful. Because a margin of one vote could pass or reject the revision.

    I advise caution, until after the election this November. Because MSNBC, ABC, NBC, and CBS and the print news will spin what ever happens and wake the sheep up.
    Jim,

    Thanks for historical perspective and timing suggestion. Your knowledge of the subject and perspective is a high-value add to this forum. I personally believe that there are more conservative voters in Wichita than liberal ones, thus I think it is important that us "meat-eaters" do what we can to promote freedom, educate and foster a sophisticated gun cultural, e.g. similar to Switzerland. I also believe that now until Nov. is the perfect time to shake things up and leverage the momentum made by the Topeka ruling and recent conservative groups/people, e.g. 9.12, tea-baggers, Matt Perdie, etc... While Wichita City Council may be dumb, they are also like many regional politicans who are election sauvy. Communication campaign followed by follow-up visits to City Council meetings will put a lot of pressure on officals to make sure they do not appear to be anti-freedom by passing unconstitutional ordinances. I also think this little event will not make mainstream news, thus will only have local impact, which is the point of the exercise. I will be extemely surprised if we even have a camera show-up, let alone an article by Tim Potter at the Eagle.

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    Me and my friend will be riding our motorcycles from oklahoma up there for the event. Would we be able to open carry unloaded in witchita on our motorcycles while riding to the event we both have a ccw?

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    Regular Member Damiansar-15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MM_45 View Post
    Me and my friend will be riding our motorcycles from oklahoma up there for the event. Would we be able to open carry unloaded in witchita on our motorcycles while riding to the event we both have a ccw?
    I am not sure about OK open carry laws, nor Kansas border towns south of Wichita. That might be something to research or discuss with an attorney. WPD is expecting citizens to be open carrying at the Warren Square, but opening carrying in other parts of Wichita might not be expected by WPD. From what I have been told in the past, WPD deploys very aggressive tactics when dealing with the occassional open carry situation, e.g. put citizens on ground with cuffs until status of firearm is determined. I suspect LEOs are trained to react the same to anyone with a fiream in the open and many probably are not aware that unloaded OC is legal in Wichita.

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    Ok thank you. Open carry in OK is illegal at this time i was jus wondering about if i can ride on my motorcyle with my gun open and unloaded in witchita so ill b ready when i get there since i dont have the privacy to unload it as if i was in a car and dont have to hide somewhere to clear my gun but sounds like id run into trouble if i open carry on my bike.
    Last edited by MM_45; 08-10-2010 at 12:15 AM.

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    Regular Member Damiansar-15's Avatar
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    Communication Update

    All,

    I spoke with Captain Troy Livingston from Wichita's police department and he wanted to spread communication on WPD approach to protests in Wichita. He did not expect the need for a large WPD presence on site since the size of our gathering is expected to be small. He also did not see the need to confirm that openly carried pistols were unloaded, unless there are complaints from local citizens reporting that folks are handling/loading pistols. He wanted to make sure that if WPD is called out to check on unloaded status, that OC citizens do not touch/handle pistols when approached. If needed, WPD will perform chamber checks to confirm unloaded status. This approach is similar to how officers in California approach this situation. So, I suggest just letting WPD unholster your pistols and perform whatever chamber checks are necessary, per WPD ordinance enforcement guidelines.

    I also want to reiterate that we want to make a positive impact during this communication/protest event. Please dress conservatively and refrain from loud clothing and politically-charged signage. We do not want the media to have an opportunity to put a spin on the intent of the event and portray the open carry community as gang-bangers, biker criminals, militant-extremists, etc…

    I am also getting contacted by various groups that I have reached out to for support, e.g. Tea-Party, Oath-Keepers, 9.12 project, etc... So, I believe we might have some postive supporters attending the event.

    Damian

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    Regular Member Damiansar-15's Avatar
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    Open Carry Wichita

    A shrewd, old spook once said that no operational decision/action is perfect; one needs to manage the blowback. How very true this statement is, but blowback is usually not expected to come from one’s own ideological camp. I was shocked to read that we have shooters from Kansas concealed carry discussion boards expressing distain for open carry initiatives.

    While I was planning the open carry protest in my hometown of Wichita, I did not dream that I would read about Kansas concealed carry forums having members bashing 2nd Amendment Rights and spouting nonsense about “setting tones of confusion”, “not supporting open carry rights”, “getting portrayed as fanatics”, “rocking the boat for concealed carry”, “being ignorant and short-sided”, “causing media blow-back”, “licensing a Right is a good thing”, and “Brady Bunch causing a shooting incident”. Some on CC forum members seemed to be more worried about their gun lobbyist/lawyers’ agenda and which politician to FOLLOW, than the right of free citizens to protect themselves.

    Although one-sided, CC “tactical” debate around carrying concealed vs. open carry was also spewed across the boards. (BTW, I would challenge anyone to a time/accuracy course of fire which consists of just drawing and shooting while they are concealed and I am open carrying.) “Tactically” speaking, when most gun fights involving citizens happen during low-light conditions and end in less than 3 seconds, I believe OC crowd have a speed advantage, especially if they use a properly tensioned, kydex rig, e.g Comp-tac holsters. While I get the argument that OC could make someone a target, one could also argue that it makes someone appear less of a victim to predators. CC can definitely stop an attack, but can it prevent it from happening in the first place? Remember that most violent criminals are lazy and cowards and look for weakness when choosing prey and locations to strike. Although, some might argue that CC folks present themselves as targets, as well, while operating in 108 degree weather wearing blousy tactical shirts and “shoot me too” vests to hide their pistols. At the square, one CC guy proceeded to read the same 5 pages of a news paper for 30 minutes while sitting on a bench in the center of the square, while others enjoyed themselves at local establishments, e.g. Old Chicago. At the end of the day, it should be up to the individual how they choose to legally carry, because everyone and every situation is different; thus no one method of carry is the best for all.

    We did see Department of Defense stickers under VIN numbers as we put brochures on cars. This might have been a coincidence, but I thought it was interesting to see two different trucks with DoD stickers under VINS parked near the square. CC community and government officials are watching you if you open carry in Wichita- You have been warned… 

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm8FxpnzRYk


    After Action Comments:

    Per my previous posts and communication with WPD, the event was planned to be a small gathering and much of the planning/prep was kept off the discussion boards for good reason. The main objective of the event was to stage a low-key protest to test the waters with WPD, Wichita City Attorney, local media, etc… Of course, KAKE-10 was fishing for drama, but as the CC crowd at the event noticed, the event was pretty mundane and most locals did not care or become bothered by OC citizens. I kept my commentary very dry, while mentioning how we were “exercising our rights”, which usually deflates any liberal spin job. I believe the camera guy in the video thought that the hot weather story at 5:30pm was going to create a larger buzz than our OC event… 

    Timing of the event on Sunday afternoon also lowered the number of citizens mulling about the square and allowed more control of blowback issues; this let folks “behind the scene” better control. Yes, we had more folks involved on this thing than just 3 guys standing about the square handing out brochures.

    Pros: I believe we definitely changed communication and process/procedures relating to how WPD handles OC citizens. I have also heard that the City Attorney’s office is very concerned about violating citizens’ rights and wants to mitigate lawsuits, in general, for Wichita. So, I believe WPD will have more of a global mindset with OC citizens going forward, which is a good thing for all free citizens who carry firearms for self-defense.

    Cons: No local media coverage. I believe most citizens from afar assumed we were either LEOs in street clothing or legally allowed to operate with OC pistols, thus we got an agreeable, lackadaisical response from local citizens. CC folks in the bushes and in cafes, seemed more uptight than the rest of people at the square.

    Sustain:
    - Follow through on OC initiatives e.g. protests, trash pick-ups, etc…
    - Education/communication vigilance in Wichita, especially city council
    - OC Initiatives…Don’t be afraid to get your hands dirty and publicly do something for the cause
    - Action…Don’t be afraid of making smart decisions using Risk vs. Gamble Philosophy
    - Awareness of both friendly, e.g. pro-gunners, and enemy fire, e.g. liberal groups, media, etc…

    Improve:
    - Communication/intent of initiatives, especially with other pro-gun communities and city council members
    - Cultivate and foster more gun leaders, e.g. people who create/deploy initiatives
    - Size of next round of demonstrations and timing to attract local media
    - Timing and location of event so that more local citizens are out and about during protest.
    - Communication material and add banners so citizens truly get that a protest initiative is underway-
    SHAKE THINGS UP EVEN MORE!!!!

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    Open Carry Video

    Damian, thanks again for letting me edit the video for you. It was a pleasure.

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    Thank You

    Quote Originally Posted by saefrog View Post
    Damian, thanks again for letting me edit the video for you. It was a pleasure.
    SAE- While we often disagree philosophically on approaches and perspectives relating to self-defense, law, etc... I appreciate your wisdom, objections, and support, especially on this initiative. Stay safe when you are operating down range...

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    I live in Wichita myself, and I was wondering about the open carry laws here and the complications. I would love to open carry, and after the phone call i made today I know i am able to but there are some things that go along with it. The watch commander that i had talked to stated that yes, i can open carry an unloaded weapon with no problem but i wouldnt be able to carry it in my car. Only if i was walking with it. It makes me wonder though, if i was wanting to do that how it would affect the people around me if they happened to see me putting it in or taking out of the holster. That there would be grounds for someone to call the cops and be like hey, they pulled a weapon out! Just makes me wonder how are we suppose to open carry in a completely legal fashion? I mean yeah, it would be legal but at the same time trying to figure out how to do it in a legal fashion. Any thoughts?

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    Open Carry is Legal in Kansas, with the narrow exception explained below.

    Local Governments may prevent Open Carry, but such Prohibitions shall not apply to Holders of Valid Licenses under The Kansas Personnal and Family Protection Act, regarding Licenses, per Kansas Law 12-16, 124(2).

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    Regular Member Damiansar-15's Avatar
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    Wichita Ordinance

    The problem is that Wichita still has ordinances that conflict with State laws...This was the point of the open carry protest...

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    That was exactly my point. Yes, you can open carry unloaded in Wichita but you are not able to get into a vehicle with it on your belt. I then becomes a criminal offense. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. I'd be very interested in trying to raise a lot of awareness about the fact in question, and i would even bet that Wichita's crime rate would go down a whole lot. As someone else has said, a criminal doesn't open carry his weapon. The fact of the matter is that if a crimial was to see somone that has a weapon, openly carrying they are less likely to commit any type of crime!

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    Quote Originally Posted by aadvark View Post
    Open Carry is Legal in Kansas, with the narrow exception explained below.

    Local Governments may prevent Open Carry, but such Prohibitions shall not apply to Holders of Valid Licenses under The Kansas Personnal and Family Protection Act, regarding Licenses, per Kansas Law 12-16, 124(2).
    This is only true when open carrying in vehicles - please stop posting this incorrect information.

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    I WILL stop Posting this Incorrect Information if you wish.
    However, I challenge you to read KSA 12-16, 124(2) yourself at: http://www.kslegislature.org/legsrv-.../getStatute.do

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    Hey aadvark,

    When your ready to go to KCK or Overland Park and open carry please send me a private message and I will go with you!

    The best way to test your theory is test the waters.

    I'm serious I will go with you but I won't be OC'ing.

    Please keep fighting for the 2nd amendment!

    Marine0300

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    Marine0300:

    I do not live in Kansas, as I currently live in Georgia.

    I have no intentions on coming to Kansas soon, but I would like to Visit Kansas during some point in my Life.

    In the meantime, I can only rely on what The Official Kansas Legislature Website says, as is current through 2010.

    aadvark
    Last edited by aadvark; 09-28-2010 at 12:22 PM.

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    Aardvark,

    You’re welcome to visit Kansas anytime! I promise to take you open carrying just look me up.

    Please keep posting on Kansas threads we need shaken up a little from time to time.

    Do great things in Georgia,

    Marine0300

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