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Thread: OT: Possible threat from enviromentalists...

  1. #1
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    OT: Possible threat from enviromentalists...

    http://tdn.com/news/state-and-region...cc4c03286.html



    WASHINGTON — Five environmental groups urged the Environmental Protection Agency on Tuesday to ban lead in ammunition and fishing tackle, arguing that millions of animals are dying from eating lead-shot pellets or carcasses contaminated by lead.

    "It's long past time do something about this deadly — and preventable — epidemic of lead poisoning in the wild," said Jeff Miller, conservation advocate for the Center for Biological Diversity. The center was one of the five groups that submitted the 100-page petition to the EPA, which includes hundreds of scientific studies the groups say demonstrate the harm lead does to wildlife. The groups say an estimated 10 million to 20 million birds and other animals die each year from lead poisoning in the U.S.

    The center, along with the American Bird Conservancy, the Association of Avian Veterinarians, Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility and a hunters group called Project Gutpile, are seeking a ban under the Toxic Substances Control Act.

    Facing the greatest risk of severe toxic concentrations are animals that scavenge carcasses that have been killed by hunters, according to the petition. It says species such as bald and golden eagles and endangered California condors are often killed or sickened by lead poisoning by scavenging meat with lead fragments from ammunition.

    The National Shooting Sports Foundation, a trade group for the firearms, ammunition, hunting and shooting sports industry, called the petition an "anti-hunting attack on traditional ammunition."

    There is already a national ban on lead ammunition for shooting waterfowl. The shooting group says that goes far enough.

    "There is simply no scientific evidence that the use of traditional ammunition is having an adverse impact on wildlife populations that would require restricting or banning the use of traditional ammunition beyond current limitations, such as the scientifically-based restriction on waterfowl hunting," said the group's president, Steve Sanetti. The group said that point is underscored by the rising population of bald eagles.

    Michael Fry, the American Bird Conservancy's conservation advocacy director, said the bald eagles' recovery was due in part to the ban on lead ammunition in waterfowl hunting.

    "It's wonderful they're recovering, but that's no excuse to continue poisoning them," he said.

    The groups concede that non-lead ammunition is more expensive, but argue that as it becomes more available, its cost will come down.

    The EPA has 90 days to grant or deny the petition. The agency did not respond to requests for comment Tuesday.



    Could this be the possible way to effectively curb ammo sales or even ban ammo outright? I am not sure, I ain't no expert, however this is pretty worrisome. Any thoughts out there?

  2. #2
    Regular Member John Hardin's Avatar
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    Time to switch to DU?

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    Well I guess we'll just have to use arsenic slugs, then.

    Really though, I don't see any other material as being viable for widespread use in bullets. Copper would be too damn expensive.

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    Iron and Steel are out as they probably result in being classified as armor piercing. Doesn't leave a whole lot of viable options, but I think that is could be the point.

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    Somehow I doubt that we are suddenly faced with an epidemic of lead poisoning in local wildlife populations.

    Lead has been used in bullets and fishing weights for how many generations now? If this was a genuine problem we would have seen declines in wildlife for decades now.

    Besides, aren't bullets SUPPOSED to be harmful to your health?

    What next?

    Surgeon Generals Warning: Lead bullets may constitute a hazard to your health

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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Since when are EAGLES scavenger birds. I was under the impression that they would HUNT for their food. Silly me.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Let them eat (cake)fish

    Actually, they are both. I lived in Alaska for four years and with my job, got to travel the entire state. I had always held this vision of the American symbol as noble, majestic, brave, the hunter and saw them regularly in South East AK, swooping down and grabbing a big salmon or occasionally a duck right out of the water...in my naivete'. I was down on Kodiak Island on a fly in deer hunt and got a nice 4 by...anyway, I came back to town and was getting the deer processed, and while I was waiting, wandered down to a local stream that went to the ocean. What I saw there astounded me....Eagles by the hundreds along with seagulls by the more hundreds...fighting over the dead, spawned out carcass' of rotting salmon by the ton. My heart sank a little that day......I think that in the debate, using sacred symbols is a no more than a tool used to make the impact of the point greater. It's just a bird, trying to use the least amount of energy for the most amount of food....(but still pretty cool).....in the 60's, the issue of the day for Eagles, was egg shell thickness thinning to a point that too many Eagle eggs were breaking before hatching in the nest....all due to that evil chemical "DDT", that ultimately got banned, now it's lead (potential, not reality) as the basis of the argument....it's not like anyone cares about lead shot poisoning in Ravens, Vultures or worse a murder of Crows (no limit, year round) and making this case to protecting all winged wildlife....it's just how their selling the package....there is always a hidden agenda behnd any good cause, sometimes it's just a little hard to discern it..........what other issues have these folks effectively prosecuted over time...that will give better insite to the issue, their agenda both presented and hidden.

    Quote Originally Posted by tombrewster421 View Post
    Since when are EAGLES scavenger birds. I was under the impression that they would HUNT for their food. Silly me.

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Jumping to conclusions

    This is also a little irritating when you re-read some of this:

    Michael Fry, the American Bird Conservancy's conservation advocacy director, said the bald eagles' recovery was due in part to the ban on lead ammunition in waterfowl hunting. This is a major stretching of facts: http://www.fws.gov/midwest/eagle/1999prop/summary.html

    "It's wonderful they're recovering, but that's no excuse to continue poisoning them," he said. This is truly a jump that makes a huge and unsubstantiated claim. But if you say it, print it, claim it enough, it must be true (Art Linkletter effect)

    They have long since moved from "recovering" to a stable and thiving population.....(the bench mark is 5,000 animals not breeding pairs). http://www.fws.gov/midwest/eagle/pop...state_tbl.html

    The spotted owl (tastes like chicken), passed this benchmark years ago, yet it persists on the endangered species list....hidden agenda - logging industry.


    I need to leave this alone now.....I took my degree in Conservation (sustained yield), not Environmentalism (Protectionism).

    errrrrrrrrrrrrrrh!

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    If you look at the bullets offered by the "Major Manufacturers" they all now have a lead free bullet. Some are copper alloy solids and others are jacketed with a form of lead-free material as a core. Probably similar to the material used in the new lead-free wheel weights.

    It would seem like they have all been getting ready for the "change".

    I ask this though, does anyone know a hunter (meaning anyone hunting legally) that leaves his "kill" lying there for the buzzards to eat? Most of the hunters I know take the meat home and furthermore, they also recover the bullet that they used to see if it performed properly (expansion, weight retention, etc). That way they know what changes, if any to make the next time they hunt. Bird shot for waterfowl is a different situation. Thousands and thousands (if not millions) of pellets ended up in the muck to be eaten by the "ducks". No way that many bullets are left in the wild in game carcasses. If this passes it will only be another win for "Junk Science".

    By the way, the "eco-freaks" want lead banned because it's deadly. Duh, just what's a bullet supposed to be? And who's to say that any substitute won't be just as bad in the future.

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Legal Hunter

    Well, that would be me.....and what you say is accurate for larger game like deer, elk, moose, waterfowl was truly an issue with diver ducks and puddlers that feed on the bottom and since lead ingestion is cumulative, studies have demonstrated that only 6-8 pellets ingested and your goose is cooked (sorry)....I'll burn 50-75 rounds duck hunting to get 8 (go ahead and laugh)...depending on the day, weather, wind, distances, etc. Goose hunting in the fields in Michigan, South Dakota, Eastern, WA puts 5 guys in trenches shooting 15 geese to limit out....but these are guided hunts during the season for some version of 3 months...they let the fields rest after a shoot, but are back in after less than a week....all the spent shot is in the field in the middle of the goose forage....and they use these fields for years.

    In some lower counties in Michigan, deer hunting is shotgun and slug or buckshot only, and so gut piles may be scavenged and have some exposure....but linking much of this as any sort of primary causal affect on populations is a stretch. When you look at the hunting regulations, they are confusing at best and try to mico manage hunting "units" to anecdotal population estimates (non scientific). Meant principally to manage wildlife populations through a harvest quota, they never actualize information based on reporting statistics. Wild animal populations are mostly driven by food availabilty not hunting pressure (note my shooting above and I can't really blame it on steel shot)

    In the end, as a hunter, I would likely not be opposed to eliminating lead....it's a pretty well documented hazard (lead paint) to just about anything....and if I buy a box of 20 ea, 7mm mags, for $40 bucks, I'm not out there wasting ammo....but a box of shells would last me for 3-4 years. On the other hand, I have hunting friends that shoot varmints: potguts, praire dog towns, coyote and just leave them lie....and when something gets banned, the market responds and there likely may be some better materials and better ballistics that emerge.....but quality product improvment on ammo, is another thread

    so, I am not sure that I answered any questions, but ......what was the original question? - Possible Threat to 2A?

    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    If you look at the bullets offered by the "Major Manufacturers" they all now have a lead free bullet. Some are copper alloy solids and others are jacketed with a form of lead-free material as a core. Probably similar to the material used in the new lead-free wheel weights.

    It would seem like they have all been getting ready for the "change".

    I ask this though, does anyone know a hunter (meaning anyone hunting legally) that leaves his "kill" lying there for the buzzards to eat? Most of the hunters I know take the meat home and furthermore, they also recover the bullet that they used to see if it performed properly (expansion, weight retention, etc). That way they know what changes, if any to make the next time they hunt. Bird shot for waterfowl is a different situation. Thousands and thousands (if not millions) of pellets ended up in the muck to be eaten by the "ducks". No way that many bullets are left in the wild in game carcasses. If this passes it will only be another win for "Junk Science".

    By the way, the "eco-freaks" want lead banned because it's deadly. Duh, just what's a bullet supposed to be? And who's to say that any substitute won't be just as bad in the future.
    Last edited by jt59; 08-04-2010 at 06:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrewster421 View Post
    Since when are EAGLES scavenger birds. I was under the impression that they would HUNT for their food. Silly me.
    They've been scavengers since day one. That's not to say they are incapable of hunting however.
    http://www.baldeagleinfo.com/eagle/eagle3.html

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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    "The groups say an estimated 10 million to 20 million birds and other animals die each year from lead poisoning in the U.S."

    That's a large and by largely divided number, is it 10 million or 20 million, or plus or minus 10 million? Good indicators they are blowing smoke up someone’s...and have no hard data to support. Sorry we can't remember if we counted 10mil, or 20mil, maybe it was just 10 or 20? But ban it anyway because we are radical eco nuts, and we may or may not have done a half ass study.
    Last edited by jbone; 01-25-2012 at 11:02 AM.

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbone View Post
    "The groups say an estimated 10 million to 20 million birds and other animals die each year from lead poisoning in the U.S."

    That's a large and by largely divided number, is it 10 million or 20 million, or plus or minus 10 million? Good indicators they are blowing smoke up someone’s...and have no hard date to support. Sorry we can't remember if we counted 10mil, or 20mil, maybe it was just 10 or 20? But ban it anyway because we are radical eco nuts, and we may or may not have done a half ass study.
    So true,

    Pick a number, ladies and gents, any number!

    Basically, name it and claim it.....once you have said it enough, then it must be true....

    How much oil got pumped into the gulf? 2-3,000 barrels a day wasn't impressive enough so they changed the language to gallons...then they were talking millions.....maybe 10 or 20.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    400 to 500 gang bangers are detered by my open carry sidearm at Starbucks every day!



    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    400 to 500 gang bangers are detered by my open carry sidearm at Starbucks every day!



    You must drink more coffee than Gibbs!

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    i shoot AK style rifles and i can tell you if they banned lead ammunition i would have to find a new hobby. if you shoot calibers like 7.62x25, 7.62x39, and 7.62x54r you would be screwed by this ban since all of our ammo comes from eastern europe. (and its mostly surplus)

    ive said it before and ill say it again I HATE HIPPIES!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt85 View Post
    i shoot AK style rifles and i can tell you if they banned lead ammunition i would have to find a new hobby. if you shoot calibers like 7.62x25, 7.62x39, and 7.62x54r you would be screwed by this ban since all of our ammo comes from eastern europe. (and its mostly surplus)

    ive said it before and ill say it again I HATE HIPPIES!
    Stock up Now

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger Dr View Post
    Stock up Now
    I'm trying but my wife has now found the joy of using up my ammo and I am in no way going to discourage that.

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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt85 View Post
    if you shoot calibers like 7.62x25, 7.62x39, and 7.62x54r you would be screwed by this ban since all of our ammo comes from eastern europe. (and its mostly surplus)
    You bubble buster!
    For weeks I could not come up with a reason not to buy a Mosin Nagant at Big 5. Now you just gave me one, luckily the reason why still outweighs. Maybe I’d best stick with the 10/22 plan.

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    Regular Member killchain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrewster421 View Post
    Since when are EAGLES scavenger birds. I was under the impression that they would HUNT for their food. Silly me.
    Bald eagles are scavengers.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bald_Eagle#Diet

    "Locally, eagles may rely largely on carrion, especially in winter, and they will scavenge carcasses up to the size of whales, though it seems that carcasses of ungulates and large fish are preferred. They also may sometimes feed on subsistence scavenged or stolen from campsites and picnics, as well as garbage dumps."
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." -John Stuart Mill

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    Regular Member shad0wfax's Avatar
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    I'm bumping this to keep it in the limelight. It may not be directly related to open carry but I know that my .45 ACP likes 230 gr JHP Gold Dots much more than it does 185 gr Barnes TAC-XP FBs.

    If we're reduced to carrying non-lead ammunition in our defensive handguns I'm going to have to switch to a 10mm auto, a .38 super, or a dedicated .357 magnum. The days of my .45 ACP are numbered if this goes through.


    It's a good thing I just bought 10,000 230gr RN bullets from Rainier Ballistics!
    Last edited by shad0wfax; 08-14-2010 at 12:40 AM.

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