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Thread: Willow Run Air Show - Carry Not Allowed?

  1. #1
    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    Willow Run Air Show - Carry Not Allowed?

    http://www.yankeeairmuseum.org/airshow/schedule.php

    On the list of prohibited items is "weapons of any kind". Is this subject to firearms preemption? (I want to CC there.) I was told that carry on airport property is allowed as long as you don't have to pass through a secure area.

    Thoughts? Cites?
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    Regular Member Agent1's Avatar
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    Email sent to Herb Gillien, Marketing and Advertising. herb@herbgillen.com

    Request for clarification.

    Wow fast reply. I believe that he is wrong though. Only Sterile areas are restricted as far as I know.

    REPLY>>>>>

    Hi Agent1,

    The FAA prohibits firearms or any other weapons on the airport grounds.

    Thanks.

    Herb


    Herb Gillen

    Herb Gillen Agency
    1953 South Mallway Drive
    Columbus, OH 43221
    614.488.2828 (office)
    614.488.3945 (fax)
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    The most important thing we create... is results.
    Last edited by Agent1; 08-05-2010 at 03:43 PM. Reason: Added reply.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Here is a sample FAA Airport Certification Manual.

    http://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_...sample_ACM.pdf

    The excerpt on Firearms:

    G. Firearms

    1. Sworn Peace Officers, private security patrol personnel on assignment by the airport and National Guard personnel are the only individuals allowed to possess loaded firearms on the airport property. All other people are required to case and unload firearms while on airport grounds. Sworn Peace Officers include but are not limited to representatives of the Gambrills Police Department, County Sheriff’s Department, Federal Marshals, State Game and Fish Wardens and State Highway Patrolman.
    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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    Looks to me like you can CC at the airshow.

    You should e-mail back the guy from the airport with a quote from their own website:


    http://www.metroairport.com/pdf/WCAA..._Ordinance.pdf

    WAYNE COUNTY AIRPORT AUTHORITY
    AIRPORT ORDINANCE
    No Concealed Weapon or Explosive. Except as provided in Section 11.8 (e), a person shall not:
    a. Carry on the Airport a deadly or dangerous weapon, concealed or otherwise, on or about his or her person or in property accessible to them prior to entering a Sterile Area or Secured Area unless the weapon:
    1. if a firearm, is unloaded or, if not a firearm, is de-activated to the greatest possible extent; and
    2. is packaged for shipment in a locked container or is otherwise secured; or
    3. is in the possession of a Person licensed by the State to carry a concealed weapon.
    b.
    preemption most likely applies, assuming wayne county airport authority is actually related to wayne county. If this is the case, then open carry without cpl should also be legal??

    Welcome to Willow Run Airport


    Managed by the Wayne County Airport Authority, Willow Run Airport is located seven miles west of Detroit Metropolitan Airport,
    http://www.willowrunairport.com/

    here is an article on guns and airports....

    http://www.eturbonews.com/5621/many-...tside-security

    An Associated Press survey of the 20 busiest U.S. airports found that seven of them — Philadelphia, Detroit, Phoenix, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Dallas/Fort Worth, Los Angeles and San Francisco — let people with gun permits carry firearms in the general public areas of the terminal.
    Last edited by lapeer20m; 08-04-2010 at 05:09 PM.

  5. #5
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    I think preemption should apply. The only hesitation I have with this is that the last time I went there, (which was the last time) they were funneling people through a security checkpoint and illegaly searching everyone via K9. Therefore, they could try to say that the entire airshow area is a secure ie. sterile area.

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    the sterile areas are inside the airport and managed by TSA agents. Everyone who has flown in the past 9 years is familiar with the security gauntlet one is required to go through in order to get on a plane at a major airport. The other side of this security checkpoint is the sterile area.

    Among other things, to enter the sterile area, you must have a boarding pass. (or have another exemption)

    The general public at the air show will not have to enter a sterile area.
    Last edited by lapeer20m; 08-05-2010 at 10:45 AM.

  7. #7
    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    But what about what Bronson said? It looks like I can't, according to that.
    Last edited by EM87; 08-05-2010 at 11:02 AM.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    Can anyone find the FAA regulation that proves they can't ban firearms unless in a secure area? The linked article above says the FAA can't do that, but there was no cite.

    Also, how do I find out if the airport is state/county run? I'm going to the show on sunday and am hoping to figure all this out before then.
    Last edited by EM87; 08-05-2010 at 11:11 AM.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    Regular Member sprinklerguy28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EM87 View Post
    Also, how do I find out if the airport is state/county run? I'm going to the show on sunday and am hoping to figure all this out before then.


    The airport is operated by the Wayne County Airport Authority as is Detro Metro.
    Last edited by sprinklerguy28; 08-05-2010 at 11:24 AM.

  10. #10
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Here is a sample FAA Airport Certification Manual.

    http://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_...sample_ACM.pdf

    The excerpt on Firearms:



    Bronson
    It looks like this was one that was approved and given as an example. BTW, this is from MARYLAND, you know, that bastion of freedom, especially when it comes to firearms. (sarcasm) I'm sure the airport authority incorporated state law into the document. (yes, MD has a law against weapons in airports)
    Last edited by DrTodd; 08-05-2010 at 11:30 AM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  11. #11
    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    Just sent this to Herb Gillen:

    ------------------------------------------------

    Herb,

    I am licensed to carry a concealed pistol in Michigan. I see on the website for the air show that "no weapons of any kind" are allowed. Can you please cite to the authority that allows this rule to be implemented? If you are not familiar with it, I should mention that Michigan has a firearm preemption law passed in 1990 that states:

    "A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state."

    I have bolded certain words for emphasis.

    What this means is that if Willow Run Airport, which is "Managed by the Wayne County Airport Authority" (as quoted from www.willowrunairport.com), is indeed an airport run by the county (a "local unit of government", therefore covered by preemption) the possession of firearms cannot be prohibited. This, of course, does not apply to the sterile areas of the airport, per the FAA.

    My question remains; can you cite to the authority that allows the legal carry of a firearm to be prohibited in the non-sterile areas of the Willow Run Airport?

    Regards,

    [EM87]
    Last edited by EM87; 08-05-2010 at 11:35 AM.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    Ahhhh shoot, I forgot to include the cite to 123.1102 in the email. At least I quoted it word for word though, which makes in easy to find online if he chooses to look it up.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    how can firearms be banned at any airport when it's perfectly legal to check a cased firearm for transport on a plane?
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

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    I think the real question here is whether or not the FAA considers the runway or viewing areas near the runways Sterile.

  15. #15
    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    I agree that that is the question now. Anyone have that information? I can't look it up right now because I'm on an iPod touch.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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    Found a very interesting document...

    http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/8900.1/v0...03_006_001.pdf

    Page 13, 1.b talks about keeping the spectators OUT of the sterile areas. If anyone can read this document further to see if it speaks specifically about firearms, go for it!
    Last edited by scot623; 08-05-2010 at 01:52 PM.

  17. #17
    Regular Member sprinklerguy28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    Found a very interesting document...

    http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/8900.1/v0...03_006_001.pdf

    Page 13, 1.b talks about keeping the spectators OUT of the sterile areas. If anyone can read this document further to see if it speaks specifically about firearms, go for it!
    No mention of firearms, when looking through other FAA regulations all that is mentioned is a person may not carry a firearm if they intend to board an aircraft.

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    Deleted for incorrect info.
    Last edited by scot623; 08-05-2010 at 03:56 PM.

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    Detroit metro allows cpl holders to possess firearms in the non-sterile areas..according to the AP and the airport ordinances.

    http://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_...sample_ACM.pdf

    the above link is just a sample manual. It does not appear to be the final word on what is and is not allowed on airport property..

    however, they may try to argue that preemption does NOT apply on the basis that the wcaa was created by an act of congress therefore they may feel that they are not a local unit of government.

    The Wayne County Airport Authority was established under Senate Bill 690, which was signed into law on March 26, 2002, and became effective April 24, 2002. The Authority is responsible for the management and operation of Detroit Metropolitan Wayne County Airport and Willow Run Airport - including the power to plan, promote, extend, maintain, acquire, purchase, construct, improve, repair, enlarge, and operate both Airports.
    I still feel you should be able to carry there as indicated by the wcaa ordinance.
    Last edited by lapeer20m; 08-05-2010 at 02:22 PM.

  20. #20
    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    As far as FAA regs go though, there is no mention of firearms outside the sterile area? And what defines the sterile area according the FAA?
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

  21. #21
    Regular Member Agent1's Avatar
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    Sorry about the delay!

    I meant to post this last night but I just couldn't find time to get on. I have been real busy today too. Sorry it took so long.





    Agent1,

    I have forwarded your request to air show management.

    Thanks.

    Herb


    Herb Gillen
    .........................................


    Mr. Agent1,
    In am sorry about the confusion but the information you received is incorrect. As the owner of a concealed pistol license you are permitted on the air show grounds with your weapon. Please ensure you have proper documentation if you are searched or questioned.
    Regards,
    Kevin

    Kevin T. Walsh
    Event Director
    THUNDER OVER MICHIGAN Air Show
    Yankee Air Museum
    Email airshows@msn.com






    Looks like They may be unware of OC rights.
    Last edited by Agent1; 08-05-2010 at 03:42 PM.

  22. #22
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    Nice! I like it!!!! There won't be need for a search when it's strapped to your hip. You have to report back to their reaction when they see it. Heck, now I wanna go to this air show.
    Last edited by scot623; 08-05-2010 at 03:55 PM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Agent1's Avatar
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    Good news for EM87 CC good to go!

    I like it too other then the fact that it says "as the owner of a CPL" you are allowed. I think you are allowed OC even if you have no CPL. Am I wrong?

    At least it is good news for EM87 who stated in his OP that he intended to go CC.

    EM87 PM me if you would like those emails forwarded to you. You might just want them to be part of your "Documentation" if you are "searched and/or questioned".

  24. #24
    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    PM sent.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

  25. #25
    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
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    I also just sent the same email I posted before to Kevin Walsh.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

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