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Thread: Clark County Fair OC?

  1. #1
    Regular Member joejoejoe's Avatar
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    Clark County Fair OC?

    The Clark County Fair is coming up, and I know it is going to be incredibly hot out. I do not CC in this weather! I know there is no STATE law regarding the fairgrounds. It is considered a park. I am trying to find something that says otherwise... I can't seem to find anything. Any help?

    Joe~
    Last edited by joejoejoe; 08-05-2010 at 06:59 PM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    That ordinance is not legal, right? (nevermind)
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 08-05-2010 at 07:17 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  3. #3
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Yea, I know what they requested. I wish it was illegal for them to post illegal information at places like that.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  4. #4
    Regular Member joejoejoe's Avatar
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    No, it is not legal. I have contacted the fairgrounds management and the sheriff. Neither of them are available at the moment. Your google searches must be way better than mine. Lol, I just found some PDF forums with Clark County Park rules, but no codes. Thanks for that.

    Joe~

  5. #5
    Regular Member joejoejoe's Avatar
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    I got a hold of the Sergeant in charge of the Clark County Fair. He told me if I CC, I will be fine. I said the rules say I can't CC or OC. He said CC is fine. I said, I prefer OC. He said he would really like if I didn't do that because it would cause alarm. I asked him if it was legal (and informed him it is according to the RCW). He said, "let me talk to me legal advice, then I will get back to you.

    After our conversation, it sounded like he knows it IS legal, but he didn't want to say it. I told him I felt safer with my gun being carried openly and he said he felt safer that way too, but because he has a badge, he doesn't alarm anyone. He said no one knows me, and they may be alarmed when they see my gun. All in all, I think it was a good conversation, but I will still contact the Sheriff tomorrow to talk to him (Since he is an "elected" official, and the elections are coming up).

    Joe~

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    With that in mind, look at the definition of coercion in RCW 9A.36.070:
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.36.070

    Then look at the REVISED definition of a threat in RCW 9A.04.110(27)(a)-(j):
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.04.110

    By posting an illegal prohibition of firearms, under the guise of an invalid county ordinance, would you not say that Joe Schmoe is being coerced into refraining from an activity that he has a legal right to engage in under the threat of arrest, detainment, and accusation of committing a crime?
    (d) To accuse any person of a crime or cause criminal charges to be instituted against any person; or

    (e) To expose a secret or publicize an asserted fact, whether true or false, tending to subject any person to hatred, contempt, or ridicule; or

    (j) To do any other act which is intended to harm substantially the person threatened or another with respect to his health, safety, business, financial condition, or personal relationships;

    I would say it is coercion.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 08-05-2010 at 08:09 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  7. #7
    Regular Member joejoejoe's Avatar
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    I agree NavyLT. Badges concern me more than citizens. Anytime you give a guy a shiny piece of metal that states he can "enforce the law" and a gun to do so.. that worries me. That's why we are a nation of laws and not a nation of men.

    Joe~

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    FACT
    It is illegal to have a firearm at an outdoor music festival. (RCW 70.108.150)

    FACT
    "...government sponsored fairs held on regularly established fairgrounds..." are specifically exempt from the restrictions of RCW 70.108.150.

    FACT
    "Clark County contracts with the Fairgrounds Site Management Group to operate and market....The Clark County Event Center at the Fairgrounds." (Edit 7-13-11: the 'about' page has been removed from that website...wonder why?)

    FACT
    Every individual e-mail contact associated with the administration of the Clark County Fairhas a clark.wa.gov tag.

    FACT
    The Clark County Events Center at the Fairgrounds is COUNTY OWNED.(edit 7-13-11: new link here. Slightly different URL)

    FACT
    RCW 9.41.290 prohibits political subdivisions of the state from enacting more restrictive firearms regulations than those enacted by the state (as we already know).

    THEREFORE,
    Based on the above documented FACTS, since state law neither prohibits, nor allows for any prohibitions on, firearms possession at the Clark County Fair, you are fully within your legal rights to do so.

    Period.

    Full stop.

    End of story.
    Last edited by Phssthpok; 07-13-2011 at 05:08 PM.

  9. #9
    McX
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    saw the bit about no guns at outdoor music festivals, and i thought; prohibited because all that fresh air and sunshine might make the gun rust faster, or maybe all those sweating middle aged hippies drippin sweat on the gun? still can't find a valid reason to satisfy my mind yet.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    saw the bit about no guns at outdoor music festivals, and i thought; prohibited because all that fresh air and sunshine might make the gun rust faster, or maybe all those sweating middle aged hippies drippin sweat on the gun? still can't find a valid reason to satisfy my mind yet.
    Rock and Roll music is from the devil!

    We must not submit to the subliminal messages in the music of the 60's!
    Live Free or Die!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phssthpok View Post
    FACT
    It is illegal to have a firearm at an outdoor music festival. (RCW 70.108.150)

    FACT
    "...government sponsored fairs held on regularly established fairgrounds..." are specifically exempt from the restrictions of RCW 70.108.150.

    FACT
    "Clark County contracts with the Fairgrounds Site Management Group to operate and market....The Clark County Event Center at the Fairgrounds."

    FACT
    Every individual e-mail contact associated with the administration of the Clark County Fairhas a clark.wa.gov tag.

    FACT
    The Clark County Events Center at the Fairgrounds is COUNTY OWNED.

    FACT
    RCW 9.41.290 prohibits political subdivisions of the state from enacting more restrictive firearms regulations than those enacted by the state (as we already know).

    THEREFORE,
    Based on the above documented FACTS, since state law neither prohibits, nor allows for any prohibitions on, firearms possession at the Clark County Fair, you are fully within your legal rights to do so.

    Period.

    Full stop.

    End of story.
    Thank you

  12. #12
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Rock and Roll music is from the devil!

    We must not submit to the subliminal messages in the music of the 60's!
    I always listen to my Barbara Streisand records backwards.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  13. #13
    Regular Member joejoejoe's Avatar
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    Update:

    Sergeant Russel Warren contacted me back today to inform me that he spoke with the fair management. After asking their legal advisers in regards to the open carry of firearms, the Clark County Fair team has said that we can carry concealed but not openly. Russel Warren told me that we would not be arrested for open carry, but we may be asked to leave. If we are asked to leave, then we can be arrested for trespassing. Clark County Fair is an establish private entity that uses public property to have their fairgrounds. It is not a government sponsored fair. After looking into it (and calling the fairgrounds), they do claim to be a private company. It seems they are within the law to deny firearms, but they said they will not do anything if we conceal.

    Disappointing, but at least I got a follow through.

    Joe~
    Last edited by joejoejoe; 08-06-2010 at 08:52 PM.

  14. #14
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    So you go to the fair. CC through the gate, CC while you enjoy your time at the fair.

    And when you are ready to go....
    (with recorder on (video or audio))

    You take off the shirt and continue enjoying the fair. If the CCSO or anyone asks you to leave.....


    just a thought....
    Live Free or Die!

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    I just open carried at the Stanwood-Camano fair for 3 hrs with no problems at all, in front of the sheriff patrols there.
    I always open carry at the Spokane Interstate Fair and have never had a problem. I normally go on the day that is free for military, police and fire. I chatted with the Spokane County Sheriff for a few minutes last year and nothing was said about my OC.

    bob

  16. #16
    Regular Member joejoejoe's Avatar
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    Yeah the events center is county owned but the fair association is private. It's so iffy I won't bother to risk it. I already emailed the county commissioner about it, and I probably won't hear back until Monday.

    Joe~

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    No surprise...

    THEY EFFIN' LIED!!!


    Clark County Fair is an establish private entity that uses public property to have their fairgrounds. It is not a government sponsored fair. After looking into it (and calling the fairgrounds), they do claim to be a private company. It seems they are within the law to deny firearms, but they said they will not do anything if we conceal.
    FACT:
    The Camas/Washougal(??) Chamber of commerce lists the CCFA as a business with an address of...you guessed it..THE CLARK COUNTY FAIRGROUNDS (17402 NE Delfel Rd, Ridgefield, WA 98642 to be exact) and the EXACT same phone number as the COUNTY OWNED fairgrounds.

    FACT:
    The Executive Director AND the Fair Manager BOTH have .wa.gov email extensions.

    A 'private entity' using .gov email to conduct business on government property?? I don't effin' think so!

    It may not be 'financially' sponsored by the county but it is most certainly RUN by the county even if they try to hide that fact behind a 'private' enterprise.

    These .gov blankety-blanks are REALLY starting to irk me with their disregard for the law that they expect US to obey without question.

  18. #18
    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Angry minutia...

    good research on all of this...it does feel like your getting played...

    The little piece of this thread that stuck out to me was the consistent use of "Alarm" as a cause for action by the LEO you spoke with....almost like he was setting the stage for someone to complain to him in an "alarmed state".

    That of course is the same language that is in the RCW...but his suggested "Alarm" caused doesn't jive with the intent of the law.....legally carrying, OC'd in its holster, walking around eating popcorn.

    intent to intimidate, use of force, illegal display of weapon, etc....
    Last edited by jt59; 08-11-2010 at 11:19 PM.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejoejoe View Post
    Update:

    Sergeant Russel Warren contacted me back today to inform me that he spoke with the fair management. After asking their legal advisers in regards to the open carry of firearms, the Clark County Fair team has said that we can carry concealed but not openly. Russel Warren told me that we would not be arrested for open carry, but we may be asked to leave. If we are asked to leave, then we can be arrested for trespassing. Clark County Fair is an establish private entity that uses public property to have their fairgrounds. It is not a government sponsored fair. After looking into it (and calling the fairgrounds), they do claim to be a private company. It seems they are within the law to deny firearms, but they said they will not do anything if we conceal.

    Disappointing, but at least I got a follow through.

    Joe~
    Interesting....They claim they won't have you arrested (acknowlegement of no case) but may ask you to leave and may arrest you for treaspass...I'd ask in post script via the FOIA for a copy of the contract between the private and public entity....including the proof of insurance that is usually required by the "renters" in most any of these public venues....that will spell out the truth pretty damn quick, albeit too late.
    Last edited by jt59; 08-11-2010 at 11:25 PM.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

  20. #20
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejoejoe View Post
    but because he has a badge, he doesn't alarm anyone.

    So just because he has a badge there's no reason to be alarmed? Wonder how that worked out in Everett where the guy was killed in his car behind the restaurant by someone with a badge. Badge = Safe? Really?

    There are probably more guns on the street being carried by law-abiding citizens than by cops. Why aren't they killing more than are killed by cops. Yes, law officers are supposed to engage those causing trouble and the liklihood of shooting is higher. But if you look at the attitude of some, there should be blood running in the streets from all those guns carried by just plain law-abiding citizens.

    You might just send a letter to the "Fair" telling them you intend to exercise your 2A rights (as well as Sec 1, Art 24 under State Const.) while attending the fair. That any attempt to deprive you of your rights will result in your taking legal action against the "Fair". Find an Attorney that will represent you if there are issues and include his name for "contact purposes" if there are questions. Then make sure you have your Attorney's Cell Phone # and that of a good Bail Bondsman, just in case. Lastly, carry a cheap gun that you could afford to loose.

    Unfortunately, things will only change when so called "rule makers" start loosing in court. Until then it's just a case of "tell it to the Judge" after they have you arrested.

  21. #21
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    I will be there AND I will be OC. I will be with my family that lives down here in Vancouver (sister has been nagging me to bring her more guns and coffee tshirts)...

    So... I was wondering if anyone else would be willing to OC with me on Friday afternoon/evening? Considering the hot weather there is no way I will be wearing anything other than shorts and a T-shirt (guess what kind... hehe) and my purple Huskies cap... going to do the fair Friday afternoon and then then demo derby that evening...

    Already read all of the postings and talked with my sister and her family and they are 100% supportive of my OC'ing...

    If anyone wants to meet me down there and/or get a t-shirt off me, please feel free to PM me or email me at ilovegunsandcoffee@gmail.com or give me a call at 206-569-5487 so we can coordinate.

    Flanders

  22. #22
    Activist Member bwboley's Avatar
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    I will be going tonight to watch the quad races i probley losely cc meaning side holster with t shirt kinda covering and i have a quick recored on my cell

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejoejoe View Post
    Clark County Fair is an establish private entity that uses public property to have their fairgrounds. It is not a government sponsored fair. After looking into it (and calling the fairgrounds), they do claim to be a private company.
    The fair used to be run private non-profit, the Clark County Fair Association, but since 2005, it's run been run by a government agency, the Fairground Site Management Group - http://www.co.clark.wa.us/general-se...fsmg/fsmg.html.

    From the Clark County Auditor report, "Since the County changed fairgrounds management from a private organization, Clark County Fair Association, to a quasi government organization, Fairgrounds Site Management Group, the transition has been a learning experience in public accountability." (http://www.clark.wa.gov/auditor/docu...airgrounds.pdf).

    Sounds like they're up for another learning experience tonight.
    Last edited by xylex; 08-13-2010 at 04:52 PM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member joejoejoe's Avatar
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    How did the OC go at the fair? I am curious. After going there tonight, I do not think I would like to OC in such a large crowd. I'd be too nervous thinking someone would take it from me. Too many bodies too close to my holster.

    Joe~

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    Quote Originally Posted by joejoejoe View Post
    How did the OC go at the fair? I am curious. After going there tonight, I do not think I would like to OC in such a large crowd. I'd be too nervous thinking someone would take it from me. Too many bodies too close to my holster.

    Joe~
    OC went well today/tonight. Got a few looks and I know some LEO saw me carrying, but none of them said a word to me. When I went inside the shopping pavilion where all the vendors were setup selling their wares I caught 2 sheriffs deputies out of the corner of my eye as I was walking with my family. They were looking in my direction as we were walking toward them... I was talking to my sister and I just sort of glanced over at them as we walked by. Granted my weak (left) side was toward them, so I'm not sure if they noticed my black pistol/black serpa on a white t-shirt... but when I glanced over at them again they started walking the other way. I'm sort of mad now that I didn't walk up to them to see if they wanted a tshirt...

    All in all I spent about 5 hours at the fair. 1 hr spent walking around/eating... another hour watching the dock dogs jump into the water, 3 hours watching the demo derby and about another hour checking out the vendors in the pavilion.

    It was a good fair and while I got a few looks from the younger crowd (whispers/pointing) most adults either didn't notice my pistol or just didn't care. I did however give out www.ilovegunsandcoffee.com to at least a dozen people who asked where I got my tshirt ::grin::

    Oh, one last thing Joe - I understand about the crowd... there were quite a few people there, so I made sure that my right arm was free 99% of the time. When I felt someone close, I would put my elbow on the butt of my pistol. Additionally, I was with my sister, bro-in-law and all 3 of their kids, plus their friends... so we had quite a big group. I made sure that I was in the middle of the group and made sure my strong side stayed toward the middle of our group as we made our way through the crowd.

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