How to answer the Norfolk Police question

I recently witnessed someone who's car had broken down and they hit a curb. The police had detained the person in the Pizza Hut where I was eating. They were asking the manager to come out and look at the property damage. I was prepping to pay for my dinner when the Police asked the man if he was in the military, clearly after they already had his State License in their hand for identification. I said not to answer the question in a low voice to the man, but the police officer started raising his voice to the man louder and louder until the man finally gave his military ID to him. My question is if you have already identified yourself, then your occupation should not matter. My point is if I have given you some form of ID then that is sufficient identification and therefore any other question about my identity is not up for an answer. Are you required to answer if they ask you if you are in the Military?

VA Big E said:

Are you required to answer if they ask you if you are in the Military?

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Maybe... BIG MAYBE... if it's an arrestable offense. A "ticket" or summons should not qualify.

In the case of a military (Navy, anyhow) an arrestee can be turned over to the Shore Patrol by local jurisdiction. I think most guys would rather spend the night in jail, though, than face their commander.

But to demand another ID? Preposterous.

VA Big E said:

Are you required to answer?

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You have the right to remain silent

Thanks for the input, I think the guy was given a ticket, but I had left the restaurant. Also, being ex Navy, I do remember getting a speeding ticket, and was asked if I was military. I replied yes, and then issued a ticket. Nothing more happened except when I reported to court in Norfolk and a person was supposed to come with me from my command, which I had no idea that was supposed to happen. The judge scolded me about it, then I paid my fine. But I guess in the future, I will not reply to the question. I agree with Ed to remain silent. Especially if I have already identified myself. I am not military now, but it is just something that I hate about the Norfolk Police. My opinion is that someone's occupation has no relevance in any traffic incident or any other type of incident.

VA Big E said:

Also, being ex Navy, I do remember getting a speeding ticket, and was asked if I was military. I replied yes, and then issued a ticket. Nothing more happened except when I reported to court in Norfolk and a person was supposed to come with me from my command, which I had no idea that was supposed to happen. The judge scolded me about it, then I paid my fine.

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I never heard of such a requirement in any state or virginia - the military has nothing to do with off post tickets - the summons applies only to the person who signed for it.

Mike said:

I never heard of such a requirement in any state or virginia - the military has nothing to do with off post tickets - the summons applies only to the person who signed for it.

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They do make military members in Hampton Roads show up with a command representative. I had to go to court with a whole bunch of kids that worked for me before i retired.

The ONLY rationale I can think of for it (and It depends upon the state law) is in a case where there are disparate
State of Residence
State of Registration and
State of DL issue.

A military ID may prevent a second ticket for a violation of that. For instance, other than non-resident (temporary resident) military, the three are to match. A new resident to the state has limited time to get the three into sync. Maybe he was driving a car with local plates, yet had a DL showing an out-of-state issuer and residence.

It's nice of you to interject into an investigation, of which I'm assuming you have not much experience or knowledge about nor does it have anything to do with you. I have no idea what went on during that situation and I won't even attempt to guess. However, I will say this about the military question... we all know that if you are driving on public roadways you must provide your driver's license upon request. If you are active in the military, you may still drive on an expired (not suspended) driver's license (regardless of the state). So perhaps the officers saw that his license he provided was expired and were inquiring whether he was active in the military to determine if he was in violation of driving without a license (class 1 misdemeanor). It's a very common occurrence. Also, like mentioned above, the residency requirements are waived in some instances for active military. I thought this was open carry, not copwatch?

Here's the deal...

A private, natural-born (or naturalized) citizen of the USA is actually a corporate construct in the eyes of the Judiciary. There is NO such thing as a "sovereign person" in the US legal system any more, for most "people". So when they issue you a ticket, they need to know which "corporate entity" they much charge to make it legal.

Active duty military personnel have handed over control of their "corporate entity" to the US Government during their duty, and therefore, when a municipality issues an active duty military "person" a citation, they are technically required to have an officer present for the hearing if you contest it, because a non-officer is not an "authorized agent" of the representative controlling Corporation. And if the military member is an officer himself, he cannot represent "himself" as a corporate entity either, but must have a non-involved "corporate representative" to authorize the civilian jurisdiction to levy said fine or charge against the "controlling corporation".

Technically, without authorization from a "legal corporate representative", such a citation (actually, in legal terms, it is a levy) cannot be finalized unless a legal representative of the "controlling corporation" is present to agree to the terms. If you pay it, it is not actually a legal transaction, and THAT is why the judges get cranky if you don't bring an officer. Even though they enjoy stealing your money in these revenue-enhancement scams, they like to do things "by the books". And acting like you actually "own" the corporate construct that stands for "you" is not the proper way to do thing, ESPECIALLY since, while on active duty, the US government has proxy ownership of your "corporate person".

The lack of existence of "sovereign persons" in US law is a VERY convoluted, counter-intuitive, and mind-boggling construct. Most people don't even realize that they, as sovereign individuals don't really exist to the legal system. This is why the names on court documents are almost always typed in all-caps (unless they are someone super-rich or very powerful). Capitalized names have a VERY specific meaning in US legal documents--they represent "corporate entities"...

Dreamer said:

Here's the deal...The lack of existence of "sovereign persons" in US law is a VERY convoluted, counter-intuitive, and mind-boggling construct.

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Well, then, I won't ask you for citations.

You can remain silent.
I wouldn't volunteer information beyond identifying myself but I also would not piss off the officers.
As a service member it is not easy to get a citation and not have someone in the chain of command find out about it.

Dreamer said:

This is why the names on court documents are almost always typed in all-caps Capitalized names have a VERY specific meaning in US legal documents

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Yeah.. that, or the clerks CAPS LOCK was on.:banana:

NovaCop10 said:

It's nice of you to interject into an investigation, of which I'm assuming you have not much experience or knowledge about nor does it have anything to do with you. I have no idea what went on during that situation and I won't even attempt to guess. However, I will say this about the military question... we all know that if you are driving on public roadways you must provide your driver's license upon request. If you are active in the military, you may still drive on an expired (not suspended) driver's license (regardless of the state). So perhaps the officers saw that his license he provided was expired and were inquiring whether he was active in the military to determine if he was in violation of driving without a license (class 1 misdemeanor). It's a very common occurrence. Also, like mentioned above, the residency requirements are waived in some instances for active military. I thought this was open carry, not copwatch?

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Still here huh...

NOVATrollCop10- Ever heard of sterile open carry

NovaCop10 said:

It's nice of you to interject into an investigation, of which I'm assuming you have not much experience or knowledge about nor does it have anything to do with you. I have no idea what went on during that situation and I won't even attempt to guess. However, I will say this about the military question... we all know that if you are driving on public roadways you must provide your driver's license upon request. If you are active in the military, you may still drive on an expired (not suspended) driver's license (regardless of the state). So perhaps the officers saw that his license he provided was expired and were inquiring whether he was active in the military to determine if he was in violation of driving without a license (class 1 misdemeanor). It's a very common occurrence. Also, like mentioned above, the residency requirements are waived in some instances for active military. I thought this was open carry, not copwatch?

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Wow, that is a real freedom hating answer you got there novacop10. Unfortunately your premise is that the Op had no business in this situation is dead wrong. Citizens can and should pay attention to the actions of their employees to ensure that said employees act in an appropriate manner. Advocationg for the exercise of constitutional rights might seem like a pain in the ... to the employee, but your over the top comments seem like those of other JBT Trolls here (Sure you aren't related to LEO229?)

You are from NOVA so we might cut you some slack about the tactics and operating mode for Norfolk PD. Everybody from Hampton Roads understands that Norfolk has a very heavy handed PD, and that that hand has come down on legal OC more than once. Our concerns about Norfolk PD actions certainly have significant reprecussions for OCers in Norfolk, especially those Military OCers that practice sterile open carry.

Live Free or Die,
Thundar

Thundar said:

Wow, that is a real freedom hating answer you got there novacop10. Unfortunately your premise is that the Op had no business in this situation is dead wrong. Citizens can and should pay attention to the actions of their employees to ensure that said employees act in an appropriate manner. Advocationg for the exercise of constitutional rights might seem like a pain in the ... to the employee, but your over the top comments seem like those of other JBT Trolls here (Sure you aren't related to LEO229?)

You are from NOVA so we might cut you some slack about the tactics and operating mode for Norfolk PD. Everybody from Hampton Roads understands that Norfolk has a very heavy handed PD, and that that hand has come down on legal OC more than once. Our concerns about Norfolk PD actions certainly have significant reprecussions for OCers in Norfolk, especially those Military OCers that practice sterile open carry.

Live Free or Die,
Thundar

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How dare anybody question how an LEO goes about doing his job? Because, of course WE are expected to be courteous and respectful of LEO's...however, that door doesn't swing both ways...if ANY of those circumstances mentioned above were the case...a statement like, "Sir, your license is expired. If you're in the military you can still drive though...are you?" would have been the courteous and respectful thing to ask. But, according to the account of someone that was actually there...that is NOT the case...but, cops will stick up for cops...without question...because the blue wall of silence is and always will be present.

It's nice of you to interject into an investigation, of which I'm assuming you have not much experience or knowledge about nor does it have anything to do with you. I have no idea what went on during that situation and I won't even attempt to guess. However, I will say this about the military question... we all know that if you are driving on public roadways you must provide your driver's license upon request. If you are active in the military, you may still drive on an expired (not suspended) driver's license (regardless of the state). So perhaps the officers saw that his license he provided was expired and were inquiring whether he was active in the military to determine if he was in violation of driving without a license (class 1 misdemeanor). It's a very common occurrence. Also, like mentioned above, the residency requirements are waived in some instances for active military. I thought this was open carry, not copwatch?[/QUOTE]
Who said the guy was driving ? Is It possible to drive a table or chair If so I gotta get one of those.
This is an open carry site were like-minded people exchange ideas and share info. COP BASHING is not allowed on this site and often members of this forum will call out other members for doing so. http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules
Perhaps you should read this http://www.policeone.com/police-products/firearms/articles/2144601-Dealing-with-citizens-legally-carrying-a-concealed-weapon/
Members of this forum do not watch LEO chat sites (Most LEO sites that I found states that to be a member on there forum you must be some type of LEO)http://forums.officer.com/forums/index.php) on a daily basis we probably look from time to time for a good laugh.
http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?150669-Traveling-in-Virginia-with-Firearm Why is it that not a single LEO told this man that open carry is legal in VA without a permit? Why did they not post a link to the laws?

Military and LEO interaction

While I was AD military, I had more than a few meetings with LEOs on Virginia roads while they were enforcing Virginia's traffic laws. I earned several citations for my efforts. I SHOULD have gotten MANY more citations than I actually received, however. I found that my military ID actually got me out of quite a few tickets, rather than in deeper trouble. Around 1986 or '87, I had a memorable speeding incident at 3AM travelling down Rt 17 south of Tapahannock, VA. I was going TWICE the posted speed limit and wasn't arrested on the spot. I landed in court, not the crossbar hotel. I ended up with a $200 fine and NO points on my license. I got off EASY, don't you think?

In boot camp, we were instructed to ALWAYS identify ourselves to LE whenever asked. It was put in the form of a direct order and also taught it would be a violation of the UCMJ if we did NOT do so. Many on OCDO are familiar with the UCMJ, some of us more than others (from experience in front of the Green Felt tablecloth and/or enforcing it).

I can't remember reading anything specifically about identifying oneself, but there's always the good ol' Article 134... Catch-All. Your CO can accuse you of "bringing discredit upon the service" under this article and it has wide-reaching tentacles. A traffic citation would be included under this article.

I've only been OCing for a few years and never knew about Sterile Carry or my right to remain silent when questioned by LE until after I retired. I'm fairly certain military members are required to notify their chain of command about any infractions committed off base because they are considered "always on duty" whether they are in uniform or not, regardless of the hour. They are still subject to recall at any time. There have been incidents where even RETIRED military members have been recalled to active duty to be prosecuted for crimes committed many years previously. I'm not sure how long the UCMJ applies to you after retirement/discharge from Active Service, but it is nothing like any state or local laws.

It would behoove those of you in the military (Active, Reserve and Retired) to consult a MILITARY lawyer or one knowledgeable about military law about these things because you never know when something you think may be a small incident will turn up in the future and BITE you in the butt.

Be careful out there!

Thundar said:

Wow, that is a real freedom hating answer you got there novacop10. Unfortunately your premise is that the Op had no business in this situation is dead wrong. Citizens can and should pay attention to the actions of their employees to ensure that said employees act in an appropriate manner. Advocationg for the exercise of constitutional rights might seem like a pain in the ... to the employee, but your over the top comments seem like those of other JBT Trolls here (Sure you aren't related to LEO229?)

You are from NOVA so we might cut you some slack about the tactics and operating mode for Norfolk PD. Everybody from Hampton Roads understands that Norfolk has a very heavy handed PD, and that that hand has come down on legal OC more than once. Our concerns about Norfolk PD actions certainly have significant reprecussions for OCers in Norfolk, especially those Military OCers that practice sterile open carry.

Live Free or Die,
Thundar

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If someone is practicing "sterile open carry" then they won't be driving a vehicle on a public road.

nova said:

If someone is practicing "sterile open carry" then they won't be driving a vehicle on a public road.

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The concern was for Norfolk PD demands in general, not about only a driver. If you are the passenger what duty to provide ID is there? IMHO none whatsoever.

Fighting for your 2A rights often requires you to assert all of your rights, including the 4th A right against unreasonable search and seizure.

FYI I am not anti police just anti JBT. Some Norfolk PD are great, but Norfolk seems to have more than their fair share of JBTs and a city council attitude that does not eradicate them.