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Thread: Wanna give my son who lives in Va. 2 rifles

  1. #1
    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    Wanna give my son who lives in Va. 2 rifles

    What's the legal way to do this? Does it need to go through a FFL?

  2. #2
    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    Nope.

    Just give them to him. States only limit private sales. Gifts between a father and son aren't anyone's business. The only way it would be illegal is if you have reason to believe your son is a restricted person. (Felon etc)
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
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    Yes. Either you can ship them to an FFL in Virginia, or if he's in Texas for a visit you can go down to your favorite local FFL and do the transfer.

    Either way, an interstate transfer must be done through an FFL to be legal, unless it is something bequeathed in a will.

    (Note: I answered the specific question asked, which pertained to rifles, Texas, and Virginia. For handguns, the transfer must always be done at an FFL in the recipient's state of residence. Also, there are some states where it is illegal for residents to receive long guns from an FFL in any state that is not contiguous with their own. I don't believe Virginia is one of those states.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by simmonsjoe View Post
    Just give them to him. States only limit private sales. Gifts between a father and son aren't anyone's business.
    Federal law and BATF beg to disagree.

    Sales, gifts, donations, whatever, don't matter. It doesn't matter if money changes hands, only that the gun changes hands. Federal law controls all interstate transfers, whether or not money changes hands.

    Can you get away with it? Absolutely. If the guns aren't involved in a crime, no one will ever look at them. If the transferor didn't buy them from an FFL, there won't a paper trail to him. But, let's suppose: Dad has two rifles that he bought new from a Texas dealer. Dad gives those two rifles to Son in Virginia. A year or three or ten later, Son suffers a home burglary and those rifles are stolen. Son, being a responsible gun owner, has recorded the makes, models, and serial numbers, which he provides to the police and his insurance company.

    And then, a year or three or ten later, one of those rifles is used in a notorious crime. Police run the S/N through NCIC and note that it was reported stolen. They contact BATF to request a forward trace. ATF contacts the maker, then the distributor, then the dealer, and find the trail leads to Dad in Texas. Meanwhile, Virginia police records show the gun was stolen from Son.

    2 + 2 = prima facie evidence of an illegal interstate transfer, unless Dad and Son can point to an FFL where they made the transfer. And since this rifle was used in a notorious crime, the pressure is on to charge anyone and everyone involved.

    Likelihood? Extremely low. Millions of guns have been illegally transferred interstate, especially between family members, and no one cares unless an anti-gun state is involved.

    But: it is still illegal.
    Last edited by KBCraig; 08-07-2010 at 12:40 AM.

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    Cite added:

    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html

    Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

    A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

    [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]


    Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?

    A person may only acquire a firearm within the personís own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licenseeís premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

    [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]


    Q: May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaserís own State?

    A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaserís State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

    [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)]

  6. #6
    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    Uninforcable for intrafamily transfers.

    Simply Will the firearms to your son. Then loan them to him until you die. It is not uncommon for people to own firearms they keep out of state at a family members residence.

    If you owned the rifles when your son still lived in your home state, it could be argued you told him they were his when he was a kid. He finally collected them up because your cleaning things out of your safe. How many of us have property at our parents home many years after we leave? Happens all the time.

    Frankly the fact the you even care what interstate commerce has to do with your private family matters is disturbing. More proof of how far out of control that BS has gotten.

    In many places it is illegal to perform fallacio or cunnilingus, or have anal sex. When your getting hot'n'heavy with the wife on vacation, do you call a local lawyer first to make sure it is OK?
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
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    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    The reason I am concerned is that he has a job that requires a high security background clearance. If it wasn't for that, I'd say the feds could put it where the sun never shines. He needs to be straight as a string, nowhutimean?

    I also need the name a FFL in Lynchburg, Va that will take shipments from a private party. Know of one?
    Last edited by rodbender; 08-07-2010 at 07:47 AM.

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    I dont think there is any law against Shipping the guns to "yourself". You can send it Via fedex to your VA address from your TX address just make sure you are sending them to "yourself". You have decided to keep 2 of your rifles at your sons house they are being stored there but still belong to you. use your name for both the return and sending address
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by END_THE_FED View Post
    I dont think there is any law against Shipping the guns to "yourself". You can send it Via fedex to your VA address from your TX address just make sure you are sending them to "yourself". You have decided to keep 2 of your rifles at your sons house they are being stored there but still belong to you. use your name for both the return and sending address
    Please read post #7.

  10. #10
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    The simplest way is for you to execute the transfer in Texas. I reckon you can give the guns to your son in Texas. He doesn't need to be there for you to do that. If you want some degree of formality, get a witness to watch you as you say, "I hereby give, grant, and bequeath this here gun to my son [___________________]." Then you can put them in the U.S. mail, parcel post (though I'd do it priority mail with delivery confirmation and insure the packages, if I were you), unloaded, of course, and preferably with the action open (e.g., bolt or lever removed, or whatever so the USPS can tell via xray that they couldn't possibly be dangerous); you are required to tell the postal clerk what's in the package and they have the option of opening it up to be sure it's unloaded, but it is NOT "nonmailable matter" - if they give you any flak about it, tell them to check The Domestic Mail Manual. Perfectly legal as far as Fed and Va law is concerned for you to ship your son's guns to him that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by simmonsjoe View Post
    Simply Will the firearms to your son. Then loan them to him until you die.
    um, no - still unlawful to do thsi under federal law. see 18 usc 922.

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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    The simplest way is for you to execute the transfer in Texas. I reckon you can give the guns to your son in Texas. He doesn't need to be there for you to do that. If you want some degree of formality, get a witness to watch you as you say, "I hereby give, grant, and bequeath this here gun to my son [___________________]." Then you can put them in the U.S. mail, parcel post (though I'd do it priority mail with delivery confirmation and insure the packages, if I were you), unloaded, of course, and preferably with the action open (e.g., bolt or lever removed, or whatever so the USPS can tell via xray that they couldn't possibly be dangerous); you are required to tell the postal clerk what's in the package and they have the option of opening it up to be sure it's unloaded, but it is NOT "nonmailable matter" - if they give you any flak about it, tell them to check The Domestic Mail Manual. Perfectly legal as far as Fed and Va law is concerned for you to ship your son's guns to him that way.
    huh? How does this not violate 18 usc 922?

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    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    I don't understand why some people insist on giving me options that are not options. I will not subvert the law. He is in a job that requires security clearance and actually can't even tell anyone what his job consists of. Leave it alone guys.
    The thing about common sense is....it ain't too common.
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  14. #14
    Regular Member sst0185's Avatar
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    This is very easy.

    Have your son find a FFL that YOU can UPS the rifles to. I always use UPS just better than standing in line at the post office.

    When the FFL gets the rifles, your son does the VA background check, pays the transfer fee, should be no more than 20.00 to 25.00 per rifle.

    Done, no worries.

    The FFL might only charge 20.00 to 25.00 for both not each.

  15. #15
    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sst0185 View Post
    This is very easy.

    Have your son find a FFL that YOU can UPS the rifles to. I always use UPS just better than standing in line at the post office.

    When the FFL gets the rifles, your son does the VA background check, pays the transfer fee, should be no more than 20.00 to 25.00 per rifle.

    Done, no worries.

    The FFL might only charge 20.00 to 25.00 for both not each.
    That's the plan. I just need to find time to get it done.
    The thing about common sense is....it ain't too common.
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    Regular Member oldbanger's Avatar
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    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldbanger View Post
    Thanks, already got one.
    The thing about common sense is....it ain't too common.
    Will Rogers

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    Campaign Veteran Cavalryman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sst0185 View Post
    This is very easy.

    Have your son find a FFL that YOU can UPS the rifles to. I always use UPS just better than standing in line at the post office.

    When the FFL gets the rifles, your son does the VA background check, pays the transfer fee, should be no more than 20.00 to 25.00 per rifle.

    Done, no worries.

    The FFL might only charge 20.00 to 25.00 for both not each.
    Yes, this. I am a FFL holder and I do this sometimes. It is the only legal way to execute the transfer between people in different states. It's not a big deal and almost all FFL holders are willing to do it. A long arm must go to a FFL but does not have to come from a FFL. A long arm can be shipped either by USPS or by common carrier, whichever is more convenient. Could you do something else and get away with it? Yes, almost certainly -- but why risk it?

  19. #19
    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Lot of comments but guns are mailable, if you are a special person...

    from http://pe.usps.com/text/DMM300/601.htm#wp1103548

    12.1.2 Handguns

    Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (referred to as handguns) are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in 12.1.3 and 12.1.5 after the filing of an affidavit or statement required by 12.1.4 and 12.1.6.

    12.3 Rifles and Shotguns

    Although unloaded rifles and shotguns not precluded by 12.1.1e and 12.1.2 are mailable, mailers must comply with the Gun Control Act of 1968, Public Law 90-618, 18 USC 921, et seq., and the rules and regulations promulgated thereunder, 27 CFR 178, as well as state and local laws. The mailer may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not precluded by 12.1.1e.

  20. #20
    Regular Member marionmedic's Avatar
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    Did you decide or "bequeath" the firearms to him while he lived with you or in the same state???

    If you did, then HIS PROPERTY has merely been "stored" at your home.

    If he visits you, just hand them to him and say "happy new gun day".
    Everyone who answered you is making this more difficult than it need be.

    You are not attempting to circumvent any restrictions on his buying, then you are just fine.
    What part of "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" is so hard to understand ???


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  21. #21
    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    It's a done deal. I shipped them to an FFL so everything will be legal and there is no problem for him and his job.
    The thing about common sense is....it ain't too common.
    Will Rogers

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