Results 1 to 23 of 23

Thread: State law vs city/county ordinance

  1. #1
    Regular Member Jaysann22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    St Louis
    Posts
    109

    State law vs city/county ordinance

    How can a city or county have the authority to regulate or even void state law? Whats the point of having a state legislature if a small county or city can override state law and deny rights of its laws/constitution?

    This should be a huge concern for all Americans.

    For example:

    You could leave your county or city carrying a firearm in a certain manner that is legal in your county or city but the minute you cross into another your instantly breaking the law? Some counties and cities borders are merely a few miles across/wide. But regardless, your breaking the law and may even lose your firearms rights from violating the ordinance that city or county may have in place that contradicts state law. Laws that the overall population of the state wanted in place. So how is this justice?



    I understand a bill was introduced to put a stop to this. What happened to it? Why isnt it back up for a vote? What are your thoughts on the subject?
    Last edited by Jaysann22; 08-07-2010 at 11:07 AM.

  2. #2
    Accomplished Advocate
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1,924
    State law can prevent this however, the firearm laws of Missouri specifically grant the communities to do so in some aspects. CCW has a state wide preemption, but they specifically state that this does not exist for openly carrying firearms.

    This in its self is a double edged sword so to speak. Despite what it might seem, cities are property owners. I am not fond of the idea of the state telling YOU what you can do with your own property. Since I believe that, then I have to sort of say the same thing for the city with their property. The problem is, the cities laws effect everyone not just the city itself. This still remains sticky because you should certainly be allowed to tell me I can not carry on YOUR property so do I not have to grant the city the same respect?

    This is why we have constitutions, dictating how far the government may intrude. I agree with you, they should not be able to change the rules. You and I agreeing has nothing to do with reality and the state granting cities the right to operate independent is important, I just do not think it is so important that it allows them to impede individual liberties of their citizens.

    The lines are actually more defined than what you stated depending on where you reside. Where I am located, it can be legal on one side of the street and not the other.

    Open carry is not popular, in fact it is really far from it, it has no legislative bite to it at all in fact it is almost poison to try and press for a legislator in our area. HB 2150 died long before committee last year as have similar efforts of the past. The up coming session is not looking fantastic but it will hit the list again. As it sits there are more than a few RINO's who talk the talk but never walk the walk. As long as folks just whine and do not vote, they stay in office.

    In the grand scheme of things, economy, jobs etc, firearms rights restoration is not a likely calling card for any of our reps, they just have too many other priorities. We may have their attention and their ear, but until folks are not running scared rabbits, you are not going to see a huge shift in things.

    Open carry as I said has limited support and the support it does have has quite almost nonexistent organization and efforts to organize it fall flat. Put yourself in a legislative seat, now I call you and say "hey, we want this" and you ask "who are we" if my answer is me and 20 other guys, you glad hand me and move on to more important issues as my group does not represent enough folks to possibly help you get elected or ousted.

    Change will not happen because more folks start open carrying, more regulation and laws will and it has already happened. It will take effort, more effort than most are willing to put out just as CCW did for several years to get passed. As it sits right now, you do not even have an organization to send funds to support, just a lot of good folks talkin about guns and a little smack every now and then (yes, talkin bout you and I) but nothing very important will ever come about from such things because disorganized passion and effective organizational methods are different items completly.

  3. #3
    Regular Member sohighlyunlikely's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Overland, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    724

    The way things are

    The reason a county or city can restrict Open Carry is because the state specifically gave them the power to do so.

    Section 21.750, paragraph 3.

    Nothing contained in this section shall prohibit any ordinance of any political subdivision which conforms exactly with any of the provisions of sections 571.010 to 571.070, RSMo, with appropriate penalty provisions, or which regulates the open carrying of firearms readily capable of lethal use or the discharge of firearms within a jurisdiction, provided such ordinance complies with the provisions of section 252.243, RSMo.

    Now why has there no state wide law passed to change this? Well that is easy. The majority of our elected officials want to make a career of politics. To do that you must be careful to do what either furthers your career or fattens your wallet. If they have to choose between "protect the liberties of my constituents" or "make sure to keep my political party happy and to not make waves so as to keep the sheep voting for me" What do you think they will do?

    Doc

  4. #4
    Regular Member Big Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    STL, MO
    Posts
    443
    It would be nice to get preemption, but at the moment, this is how we've got to do it.

    As far as getting in trouble for crossing city lines, or whatever. As long as you do not stop there, and carry in that manner, you are good. It's the peaceable journey law. It exists for just that reason. I'm legally OC'ing, and going to drive to somewhere else where it is legal to OC. But in order to get to location B I have to pass through a city where OC is ILLEGAL. If I get stopped by a cop, I should be good, because I was on a peaceable journey through their city, and had no intentions of stopping there.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Jaysann22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    St Louis
    Posts
    109
    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    State law can prevent this however, the firearm laws of Missouri specifically grant the communities to do so in some aspects. CCW has a state wide preemption, but they specifically state that this does not exist for openly carrying firearms.

    This in its self is a double edged sword so to speak. Despite what it might seem, cities are property owners. I am not fond of the idea of the state telling YOU what you can do with your own property. Since I believe that, then I have to sort of say the same thing for the city with their property. The problem is, the cities laws effect everyone not just the city itself. This still remains sticky because you should certainly be allowed to tell me I can not carry on YOUR property so do I not have to grant the city the same respect?

    This is why we have constitutions, dictating how far the government may intrude. I agree with you, they should not be able to change the rules. You and I agreeing has nothing to do with reality and the state granting cities the right to operate independent is important, I just do not think it is so important that it allows them to impede individual liberties of their citizens.

    The lines are actually more defined than what you stated depending on where you reside. Where I am located, it can be legal on one side of the street and not the other.

    Open carry is not popular, in fact it is really far from it, it has no legislative bite to it at all in fact it is almost poison to try and press for a legislator in our area. HB 2150 died long before committee last year as have similar efforts of the past. The up coming session is not looking fantastic but it will hit the list again. As it sits there are more than a few RINO's who talk the talk but never walk the walk. As long as folks just whine and do not vote, they stay in office.

    In the grand scheme of things, economy, jobs etc, firearms rights restoration is not a likely calling card for any of our reps, they just have too many other priorities. We may have their attention and their ear, but until folks are not running scared rabbits, you are not going to see a huge shift in things.

    Open carry as I said has limited support and the support it does have has quite almost nonexistent organization and efforts to organize it fall flat. Put yourself in a legislative seat, now I call you and say "hey, we want this" and you ask "who are we" if my answer is me and 20 other guys, you glad hand me and move on to more important issues as my group does not represent enough folks to possibly help you get elected or ousted.

    Change will not happen because more folks start open carrying, more regulation and laws will and it has already happened. It will take effort, more effort than most are willing to put out just as CCW did for several years to get passed. As it sits right now, you do not even have an organization to send funds to support, just a lot of good folks talkin about guns and a little smack every now and then (yes, talkin bout you and I) but nothing very important will ever come about from such things because disorganized passion and effective organizational methods are different items completly.
    wow, thanks for the info! Very informative and inciteful. Yes things will not change unless people take political action. Couldnt agree with you more. However, I will have to say, it was kind of a shot in the foot on the state's part to say yes you can do it, but only with the permission of your local municipality.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Jaysann22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    St Louis
    Posts
    109
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Boy View Post
    It would be nice to get preemption, but at the moment, this is how we've got to do it.

    As far as getting in trouble for crossing city lines, or whatever. As long as you do not stop there, and carry in that manner, you are good. It's the peaceable journey law. It exists for just that reason. I'm legally OC'ing, and going to drive to somewhere else where it is legal to OC. But in order to get to location B I have to pass through a city where OC is ILLEGAL. If I get stopped by a cop, I should be good, because I was on a peaceable journey through their city, and had no intentions of stopping there.
    Yes, agreed. Its unfortunate, but it is reality. However it just seems unprofessional and confusing. Does anyone else feel that legislators have made gun laws purposely confusing?

  7. #7
    Regular Member sohighlyunlikely's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Overland, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    724

    Yep

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaysann22 View Post
    Yes, agreed. Its unfortunate, but it is reality. However it just seems unprofessional and confusing. Does anyone else feel that legislators have made gun laws purposely confusing?
    You know I do. It is the 3rd phrase I put in my video.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBiOXdKENX4

    Ignorance of the law is not an excuse either. Well unless you are a LEO or a Prosecutor. They are legally protected from convictions of not knowing the law(fact).

    Doc

  8. #8
    Regular Member Jaysann22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    St Louis
    Posts
    109
    Quote Originally Posted by sohighlyunlikely View Post
    You know I do. It is the 3rd phrase I put in my video.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBiOXdKENX4

    Ignorance of the law is not an excuse either. Well unless you are a LEO or a Prosecutor. They are legally protected from convictions of not knowing the law(fact).

    Doc
    Cool vid. Its actually kinda surprising such of the areas visited/mentioned even allow open carry. Like I never would of guessed Hazelwood or Crestwood. Have you had any experience in Arnold MO? Whoo, those LEOs are a trip.

  9. #9
    Accomplished Advocate
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1,924
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaysann22 View Post
    Cool vid. Its actually kinda surprising such of the areas visited/mentioned even allow open carry. Like I never would of guessed Hazelwood or Crestwood. Have you had any experience in Arnold MO? Whoo, those LEOs are a trip.
    LOL,

    In Hazelwood the police chief does not need laws, in fact when he was explicitly explained the laws by the county prosecutor he ignored the law and had a standing order for his troops to seize weapons. It was not until his email went public and he was facing heading to court he finally at least decided to hide his illicit behavior.

    I have never heard of anyone having much issue in Jeffco at all unless USMCBESS is within those borders, I know he has been harassed a bit. Not that it should but he is a younger man and while it should never make a difference, he is more likely than my gray headed person for the same activity. I just am not sure if pacific/eureka area is jefco or franklin etc.

  10. #10
    Newbie
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    491
    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    State law can prevent this however, the firearm laws of Missouri specifically grant the communities to do so in some aspects. CCW has a state wide preemption, but they specifically state that this does not exist for openly carrying firearms.

    This in its self is a double edged sword so to speak. Despite what it might seem, cities are property owners. I am not fond of the idea of the state telling YOU what you can do with your own property. Since I believe that, then I have to sort of say the same thing for the city with their property. The problem is, the cities laws effect everyone not just the city itself. This still remains sticky because you should certainly be allowed to tell me I can not carry on YOUR property so do I not have to grant the city the same respect?

    This is why we have constitutions, dictating how far the government may intrude. I agree with you, they should not be able to change the rules. You and I agreeing has nothing to do with reality and the state granting cities the right to operate independent is important, I just do not think it is so important that it allows them to impede individual liberties of their citizens.

    The lines are actually more defined than what you stated depending on where you reside. Where I am located, it can be legal on one side of the street and not the other.

    Open carry is not popular, in fact it is really far from it, it has no legislative bite to it at all in fact it is almost poison to try and press for a legislator in our area. HB 2150 died long before committee last year as have similar efforts of the past. The up coming session is not looking fantastic but it will hit the list again. As it sits there are more than a few RINO's who talk the talk but never walk the walk. As long as folks just whine and do not vote, they stay in office.

    In the grand scheme of things, economy, jobs etc, firearms rights restoration is not a likely calling card for any of our reps, they just have too many other priorities. We may have their attention and their ear, but until folks are not running scared rabbits, you are not going to see a huge shift in things.

    Open carry as I said has limited support and the support it does have has quite almost nonexistent organization and efforts to organize it fall flat. Put yourself in a legislative seat, now I call you and say "hey, we want this" and you ask "who are we" if my answer is me and 20 other guys, you glad hand me and move on to more important issues as my group does not represent enough folks to possibly help you get elected or ousted.

    Change will not happen because more folks start open carrying, more regulation and laws will and it has already happened. It will take effort, more effort than most are willing to put out just as CCW did for several years to get passed. As it sits right now, you do not even have an organization to send funds to support, just a lot of good folks talkin about guns and a little smack every now and then (yes, talkin bout you and I) but nothing very important will ever come about from such things because disorganized passion and effective organizational methods are different items completly.
    1st, let me say that I really hate this new site.

    2nd, LMTD, HB875 was passed out of the House and sent to the Senate and it died in Committee.

    3rd, HB2150 was rail roaded, because of gun groups in Mo working against OC. If you talked to Legislators, you would know this. As they tell you why your bill is getting bent over.

    4th, I personally have gotten this bill introduced for the past couple of years.....what was the OC bill you had introduced again???? I was the only person to testify on HB875 (house side).....again, it passed the house. It takes people showing up and testifying on bills. It takes people who know statutory law and case law, so you can answer questions from the Representatives.
    ***
    Look, your post shows a negative and defeatist attitude (commonly shared by members of missouricarry.com). This is why bills don't get passed, you believe people when they tell you it can't be done.

    5th, read HB2150 again....pre McDonald, ya...some of us know what the hell it is we are talking about.

    6th, I'll support you to the hilt on your bill, just make it better than HB2150. Waiting...

  11. #11
    Accomplished Advocate
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1,924
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
    1st, let me say that I really hate this new site.

    2nd, LMTD, HB875 was passed out of the House and sent to the Senate and it died in Committee.

    3rd, HB2150 was rail roaded, because of gun groups in Mo working against OC. If you talked to Legislators, you would know this. As they tell you why your bill is getting bent over.

    4th, I personally have gotten this bill introduced for the past couple of years.....what was the OC bill you had introduced again???? I was the only person to testify on HB875 (house side).....again, it passed the house. It takes people showing up and testifying on bills. It takes people who know statutory law and case law, so you can answer questions from the Representatives.
    ***
    Look, your post shows a negative and defeatist attitude (commonly shared by members of missouricarry.com). This is why bills don't get passed, you believe people when they tell you it can't be done.

    5th, read HB2150 again....pre McDonald, ya...some of us know what the hell it is we are talking about.

    6th, I'll support you to the hilt on your bill, just make it better than HB2150. Waiting...
    Woo hoo a new fan boy!

    2150 was indeed killed.

    #1 I was not too fond of the new software either, but it will grow on ya if you give it a shot.
    #2 Not a thing wrong in the world with 875 but it dies often, ever wonder why?
    #3 Railroaded? I am not so sure I would go that far but your right it was indeed killed, the difference is, its death was predictable from its introduction. While you may believe everything you are told by them, I do not share your confidence
    #4 I have NEVER introduced any OC bills, not a single one. I do not have the luxury of being able to take off work to get to the meetings and rallies, that is why I play "government" instead. You know, how the government see's a problem and just throws money at it, that's what I do most of the time. I have looked high and low for any group dedicated to OC to throw money at but guess what, there ain't one. I do not care if you or anyone else wants to call it negative, there is no organized effort in MO for OC. You may be doing a fine job, but as you have made clear, you are doing it alone...WHY!!! Because the OC supporters are indeed mavericks whom pretty much ALL think they have the only path to it and will never compromise or even just settle down a little so things can be done.

    If you spend 20 minutes surfin this very sight, your gonna see real fast why I do not introduce bills, I am not a front man by any means. I can write a good letter, am a decent public speaker, but I have a tude and there is never really much of a question about that, I am not a front man, I am a backer, a supporter, a caller, I will even put stamps on mailers but you really do not want me going head to head because I become obsessive compulsive at the first sign of dishonesty or negative statement and I am relentless in my attack as I have no intention of losing the debate ever, even when I know it is the better choice.

    Everyone can have a part in the game so we all pull on the same rope in the same direction, but only when we are organized. I know 5 other folks seriously dedicated to the cause and doing stuff from SE mo to SW mo to St Louis metro area. I spoke to approximately 452 gun owners to try and get them registered to vote and transportation to the polls this week, I SAW the dismal turn out. I have talked to and written Munz and have expressed my disappointment in how things don't manage to get assigned to committee, I have hammered on more than a few via letters and emails sent (Old School here and send a hand written note makes me think it MIGHT get read) I have thrown between 1 and 5k a year at firearms causes, I vote, I line pockets, I asked Chappel this year for his position and while he rides the tea party wagon in Marshfield, he failed to respond to a pro 2a or not question despite the simple fact we went to school together, if he would have bothered to answer I would have lined his campaign pockets but since he didn't I worry he may be another RINO.

    I will go you one better than that, I have grabbed the ear of Clay, Dooley and Rice to try and get them to at least dial it back a notch and blame the criminal instead of the gun, just change the words a bit. That too a heck of a lot as I had to shelve my ego and arrogance and suck up a little because none of them are real interested in listening to us at all.

    Defeatest, nah, realist is more like it as we are indeed faced with our first full year of over 10% unemployment, there are some big fish to fry and firearms legislation is not going to get the same attention it has in the past 10 years, folks have other concerns they are bending the ears about. The only positive note we have is the goofball running the country does continue to expose what emotional voting can do TO you instead of for you.

    You show me the org, tell me the day you want to testify again and I will put the supporters on the steps of the Truman building for you if I have to bus them there myself, we just need the org to get it done. Despite your stereotypical BS about the folks from missouricarry, you are 100% WRONG and are alienating yourself from several strong OC supporters because of a couple of members whom are not OC supporters, that is very unwise and a likely cause of you having to go it alone, trust me I know, I alienate people all the time.

  12. #12
    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Ellisville, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    1,966

    OC

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaysann22 View Post
    How can a city or county have the authority to regulate or even void state law? Whats the point of having a state legislature if a small county or city can override state law and deny rights of its laws/constitution?

    This should be a huge concern for all Americans.

    For example:

    You could leave your county or city carrying a firearm in a certain manner that is legal in your county or city but the minute you cross into another your instantly breaking the law? Some counties and cities borders are merely a few miles across/wide. But regardless, your breaking the law and may even lose your firearms rights from violating the ordinance that city or county may have in place that contradicts state law. Laws that the overall population of the state wanted in place. So how is this justice?



    I understand a bill was introduced to put a stop to this. What happened to it? Why isnt it back up for a vote? What are your thoughts on the subject?
    I and others continue to push for no restrictions on OC by Cities. The big problem is The People don't call or write their legislators. There is power in numbers, we don't have the numbers.

    MAKE THE CALL, WRITE THE LETTERS AND GO TO THE CAPITOL TO TALK TO YOUR SENATOR AND REPRESENTATIVE! Just Do it!

  13. #13
    Accomplished Advocate
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1,924
    There you go Shawn, post right above this one, mspgunner, workin for the cause, a long term member of mocarry and mssa. Shoot he has even gone beyond just talkin the talk, he has stepped to the plate to walk the walk and is running for local office.

    I have two choices, support him, or sit around and publicly be critical of how he goes about things which despite intent works against him aka opposes him subversive but perhaps more effective than direct opposition.


    whether you believe it or not is irrelevant, if I publicly rant about his methods, the antis get to use it and point to it and say things like "see, not even the gun owners support this bla bla bla" which is stronger propaganda than Sara Brady herself coming into town.

    It's gonna take more than a few good peeps steppin to the table, it is going to take a lot of folks committing to step up in support and shelve the independent thoughts and back the consensus. That or folks can just keep writing the bills for the legislators so the legislators can look like they are doing something while they never even press it into committee in enough time to get it considered.

    You go it alone because you do not ask for help, perhaps you do not ask for help because there is but a few you can depend upon for help, the rest are just sitting around complaining nothing gets done and there is no way to help. The parts of the puzzle are all here, every aspect required, but each part is isolated from the other.

    You, Brollin1911, mpsgunner, several others workin the legislature, Sohigh respectfully drawing attention to the true independence walkin the walk you got Zeke who desperately seeking anywhere to put his spare time to use for the cause, you got pete workin in KC and stepping into the bid for office as well, you got goalseter88 trying to bring folks together down in springfield OC and shooting sports alike, and the list goes on, folks working separately for the same goal.

    Can you imagine the power such things could bring forward if joined and capitalizing on the strengths of each other instead of criticizing the weaknesses? Let me tell you I ain't one to walk away from a fight, but if that happened to be the crowd I faced I would think long and hard about opposing them.

    Believe it or not, I would likely almost stop posting here in public because I am not capable of keeping my mouth shut except when I know it has to be done for the betterment of the cause so instead of growling every time I see injustice I would avoid it and vent elsewhere so as not to take a chance of alienating those whom might join.

    No Shawn, I do not know everything there is to know about whats happening in Jeff, you likely have a much better handle on it, but that is not the only piece of that puzzle and I do indeed know what it is going to take and we have all the parts, they are all just working separately. Even some of the bad ideas have merit for the right circumstances.

    Its not a flag waving contest Shawn, I haven't done a thing for OC gun rights and despite the efforts, neither have you as nothing has changed. I offer simply that if everyone starts working together then perhaps WE can do something for OC across the state. The political climate is however rapidly changing and the window that has been getting pried open the last ten years is getting closed by other issues, new political buzzwords are entering the fray and none of them are gun related. Within two years we will no longer be doing more than knocking on the glass again staring in asking when we again shall be important enough to listen to at all.

    If you do not still yet agree with me in any way and feel it is defeatist let me try cliff notes here:

    My name has never been associated with a bill, nor should you want that, it would do more harm than good, it serves no purpose. That does not mean anything important but buying ten rolls of stamps on the postal machine means whomever name is right on that bill gets a show of support beyond just the name. Part of the problem associated with Missouri gun politics is the simple fact of credit, every group wants the credit for getting it done, but in reality they all play a role.

    Either way, like it or not, we all want the same thing, OC for the whole state and lots of folks are pulling different ropes to get it done, I am just suggesting a group be formed to pull the same rope the same direction and differences be set aside and we all capitalize on each others strengths and keep our mouths shut in public about each others weakness, I am aware that is asking too much from some, if that is defeatist so be it, it is reality.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    613
    Quote Originally Posted by sohighlyunlikely View Post
    You know I do. It is the 3rd phrase I put in my video.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBiOXdKENX4

    Ignorance of the law is not an excuse either. Well unless you are a LEO or a Prosecutor. They are legally protected from convictions of not knowing the law(fact).

    Doc
    Man I love that music And I know that it is a fact that police are allowed to be ignorant of the law. Nice huh?
    Oh yeah, me for Missouri House, District 50 in 2012 but my full name is not used here... yet. Just my first and middle.
    Last edited by peterarthur; 08-08-2010 at 01:02 PM.

  15. #15
    Regular Member cash50's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    St. Louis
    Posts
    349
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaysann22 View Post
    How can a city or county have the authority to regulate or even void state law? Whats the point of having a state legislature if a small county or city can override state law and deny rights of its laws/constitution?

    This should be a huge concern for all Americans.

    For example:

    You could leave your county or city carrying a firearm in a certain manner that is legal in your county or city but the minute you cross into another your instantly breaking the law? Some counties and cities borders are merely a few miles across/wide. But regardless, your breaking the law and may even lose your firearms rights from violating the ordinance that city or county may have in place that contradicts state law. Laws that the overall population of the state wanted in place. So how is this justice?



    I understand a bill was introduced to put a stop to this. What happened to it? Why isnt it back up for a vote? What are your thoughts on the subject?
    Jay, thinking outside of just guns, the state and federal governments often give authority to lesser governments to regulate certain things. They make it that way so that people who live in a certain area are able to live as they see fit. I find it annoying when it comes to open carry, but I do understand why.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Jaysann22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    St Louis
    Posts
    109
    Quote Originally Posted by cash50 View Post
    Jay, thinking outside of just guns, the state and federal governments often give authority to lesser governments to regulate certain things. They make it that way so that people who live in a certain area are able to live as they see fit. I find it annoying when it comes to open carry, but I do understand why.
    yeah i hear ya but it shouldn't really apply to gun rights. Other laws, maybe so, but when it comes down to one single issue like gun rights, why would they grant authority to regulate to cities and counties? Its more likely what Doc and I agreed on. To make gun laws confusing and blur the lines of legality.

    I hate to make that sound like a conspiracy, but in this case its almost too obvious. i get what your saying, like maybe property taxes, sales taxes, and so forth can and will be regulated but gun rights? Its just down right ridiculous.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Jaysann22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    St Louis
    Posts
    109
    Ignorance of the law is not an excuse either. Well unless you are a LEO or a Prosecutor. They are legally protected from convictions of not knowing the law(fact).
    THIS needs to be remedied IMMEDIATELY. And this remedy needs to be priority over any new bill/law, every where, right now. If police, municipalities, and other government authorities want to improve relations with the American people, this is the number one thing to be reversed. The ultimate scapegoat = zero accountability= A LOT of pissed off Americans = Revolt.
    Last edited by Jaysann22; 08-08-2010 at 08:16 PM.

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    613
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaysann22 View Post
    THIS needs to be remedied IMMEDIATELY. And this remedy needs to be priority over any new bill/law, every where, right now. If police, municipalities, and other government authorities want to improve relations with the American people, this is the number one thing to be reversed. The ultimate scapegoat = zero accountability= A LOT of pissed off Americans = Revolt.
    Please remember that the BEST thing that could ever happen to create a dictatorship is open revolt because it gives the government a reason to inflict marshal law aka the police state, making it official and enforceable. We should all hope and pray that ballots prevail so that we might avoid bullets.
    Last edited by peterarthur; 08-08-2010 at 09:11 PM.

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Mo.
    Posts
    279
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaysann22 View Post
    How can a city or county have the authority to regulate or even void state law? Whats the point of having a state legislature if a small county or city can override state law and deny rights of its laws/constitution?

    This should be a huge concern for all Americans.

    For example:

    You could leave your county or city carrying a firearm in a certain manner that is legal in your county or city but the minute you cross into another your instantly breaking the law? Some counties and cities borders are merely a few miles across/wide. But regardless, your breaking the law and may even lose your firearms rights from violating the ordinance that city or county may have in place that contradicts state law. Laws that the overall population of the state wanted in place. So how is this justice?



    I understand a bill was introduced to put a stop to this. What happened to it? Why isnt it back up for a vote? What are your thoughts on the subject?
    Everyone else provided great information, however I would like some more specific information as to what you're referring. Clear as mud so to speak without specifics.

    Example: Bolivar apparently says OC is only allowed IF you have a CCW permit. State law does not say this in any fashion, however the municipality is left with the ability to regulate what they feel the State does not. And I totally agree that they should not have the ability to regulate something further that State law already does.
    Last edited by heresyourdipstickjimmy; 08-09-2010 at 12:32 PM.

  20. #20
    Regular Member sohighlyunlikely's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Overland, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    724

    21.750

    Quote Originally Posted by heresyourdipstickjimmy View Post
    Everyone else provided great information, however I would like some more specific information as to what you're referring. Clear as mud so to speak without specifics.

    Example: Bolivar apparently says OC is only allowed IF you have a CCW permit. State law does not say this in any fashion, however the municipality is left with the ability to regulate what they feel the State does not. And I totally agree that they should not have the ability to regulate something further that State law already does.
    Missouri Statutes 21-750, paragraph 3

    Nothing contained in this section shall prohibit any ordinance of any political subdivision which conforms exactly with any of the provisions of sections 571.010 to 571.070, RSMo, with appropriate penalty provisions, or which regulates the open carrying of firearms readily capable of lethal use or the discharge of firearms within a jurisdiction, provided such ordinance complies with the provisions of section 252.243, RSMo.

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    613
    Quote Originally Posted by sohighlyunlikely View Post
    Missouri Statutes 21-750, paragraph 3

    Nothing contained in this section shall prohibit any ordinance of any political subdivision which conforms exactly with any of the provisions of sections 571.010 to 571.070, RSMo, with appropriate penalty provisions, or which regulates the open carrying of firearms readily capable of lethal use or the discharge of firearms within a jurisdiction, provided such ordinance complies with the provisions of section 252.243, RSMo.
    What he said

  22. #22
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    159
    I never did know the answer, but does Missouri prohibit open carry of a loaded gun and allow UOC??

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Mo.
    Posts
    279
    Quote Originally Posted by sohighlyunlikely View Post
    Missouri Statutes 21-750, paragraph 3

    Nothing contained in this section shall prohibit any ordinance of any political subdivision which conforms exactly with any of the provisions of sections 571.010 to 571.070, RSMo, with appropriate penalty provisions, or which regulates the open carrying of firearms readily capable of lethal use or the discharge of firearms within a jurisdiction, provided such ordinance complies with the provisions of section 252.243, RSMo.

    Again, Doc comes out with more relevant information. Great post! FYI, folks this is available through the RSMO search. Municode.com doesn't have all of the codes for every municipality, only those that participate.

    However, I made the error in my post and apparently didn't get specific on what I meant. I was referring to the specific situation, not the Statute and that's why I mentioned Bolivar's supposed rule. (thought that was clear)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •