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Thread: Van Buren park does not allow firearms

  1. #1
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    Angry Van Buren park does not allow firearms

    http://www.vanburen-mi.org/Parks.html

    I went to Van Buren park today and noticed as you enter the park area on the rule sign number 1 is no firearms

    I am gonna fire off a letter to the director of the parks and hope you all do to but I do have a couple questions first.
    If your on city property and carrying and are asked to leave because your breaking the park rules what are your options?

    I can imagine if one refused to leave the police would be called and insist the person leave or arrest them, being that the city lacks the authority to make their own CEZ what can they actually do?

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    They probably think that allowing alcohol gets them by preemption? This is just another bogus rule. May I suggest you start a thread for a picnic or gathering there. However I would urge you not to OC alone, not because you can't but in my experiences you will be treated far better by police (they will be called) with 6 other people with recorders & video camera's then going it alone. I know I would do my very best to attend.

    Rules and Regulations - from their website:

    The Charter Township of Van Buren, in order to serve the best interests of its residents and to maintain an operate Van Buren Township Park, offers the following rules and regulations.

    * Alcoholic Beverages : Alcoholic beverages, such as beer and wine, are allowed within the boundaries of the park within legal limits of the law. No liquor is allowed in the park. All open alcoholic beverages shall be confined to the picnic site. Individuals may not carry open intoxicants outside of a 15 foot perimeter of the individual's picnic site. No alcoholic beverages are allowed in the beach area, playground, nature center, athletic fields or any other place as determined by the Van Buren Township Board of Trustees or the Parks Department.
    * Closing of the Park : The Park, or any portion thereof, may be closed partially or entirely from certain uses (including the use/possession of alcoholic beverages and/or pets, respectively) for such period of time as determined by the Board of Trustees or their representatives. During such periods of time, no persons shall enter upon or occupy the park, or any portion thereof, contrary to posted regulations.
    * Disposal of Refuse : All refuse will be disposed of in barrels provided for that purpose.
    * Exemptions : All or any portion of these rules may be exempted or amended for special uses when exemption is approved by the Township Board of Trustees.
    * Firearms : No fireworks, explosives or any other weapons of any kind are allowed on park property.
    * Fires : Fires may be built only in grills or in other equipment in areas designated for that purpose.
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 08-07-2010 at 05:51 PM.

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    I am going to, I already looked into how to rent a pavillion and am seeing where my schedule lines up to plan one
    Just wanted some thoughts before i email them, then call them

    And I agree with waiting for back up, I cc'd today
    Last edited by choover; 08-07-2010 at 06:03 PM.

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    Keep us posted.

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    This is, of course, in direct violation of the MCL, 123.1102. Start the process, it's just a township. I had a similar ordinance removed that covered the parks in Texas Township last year, as well as Kalamazoo County Parks. One man alone can get this done (it did take 9 months!) Have your township attorney call the Texas Township attorney, or the Kalamazoo County attorney, or the Texas Township Supervisor. All are now 'edumacated' on 123.1102 as it applies to illegal ordinances.

    Carry on
    Last edited by jmlefler; 08-08-2010 at 06:13 AM.

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    Just a update, I did email the township director and recieved a response within a hour from him that he was forwarding it to the attorney for a opinion for their township on the issue.

    My question still remains, what happens if you are told to leave a place you have a right to be. I know with the amount of city workers there if I do OC there would likely be a incident where I am told to leave or a call to the police. Being the rule and ordinance are unenforceable what are the options and possible outcomes if told to leave a place you have a legal right to be by a city worker or the police?

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    Regular Member sprinklerguy28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by choover View Post
    Just a update, I did email the township director and recieved a response within a hour from him that he was forwarding it to the attorney for a opinion for their township on the issue.

    My question still remains, what happens if you are told to leave a place you have a right to be. I know with the amount of city workers there if I do OC there would likely be a incident where I am told to leave or a call to the police. Being the rule and ordinance are unenforceable what are the options and possible outcomes if told to leave a place you have a legal right to be by a city worker or the police?
    You can not be asked to leave public property if you are legally allowed to be there. It can happen. Refer to the Marysville thread where Scot623 and I were harassed and escorted out of a park. I do feel this is unlikely but if a LEO interaction occurred only you can decide what to do. I would keep pursuing this through emails, phone calls, and if need be an appearance at meetings. I truly believe most communities and law enforcement intend to do the right thing. Many just need it to be brought to their attention. Many cities have immediately corrected similiar issues after being notified via email. If you need assistance please PM and I will do whatever I can to help. Thank you for your efforts. Its exciting to see so many people starting to hold our public servants accountable. Most will do what is right. Remember we must praise those who do whats right. If they correct it a showing at a meeting to say thanks can go a long way in building respect from both sides.

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    If arrested for not leaving would you think one would be still liable for not following a police order if said order is given based on the gun? I do not mind doing what is necessary to ensure our rights are respected I just want to make sure I am on reasonably solid ground if I refuse to leave and they act on my refusal.

    And I agree that it is good to see so many working on our rights, I am not as outwardly vocal on here as many but I have popped a few people's cherries with OCing and have gotten a half dozen more to at least get their CPL i do what I can behind the scenes :P

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    choover - If you fail to obey an unlawful police command there should be no issue. However it is always better to pick and choose when to do so. The likely-hood of being illegally detained/arrested goes down exponentially with the number of witnesses/recorders/cameras present. Most Police are honest people doing their best to serve the public, but all it takes is one rotten apple to cause you trouble. MOC is helping change things for the better and hopefully there will be case law on the books soon to help keep said bad apples from acting against law abiding citizens.

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    Update - Not good

    They have removed the no firearms sign and replaced it with 2 signs at the enterance stating no firearms during day camp operations Monday thru friday june 21st - august 20th 9am-4 pm per mcl 28.425o (1) (b)

    Basically they are trying to say it is a PFZ based on it being a child care center, day care center or child placement facility. it is a public park.

    This is crazy

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    The Michigan Department of Human Services (DHS) Division of Child Care Licensing defines a child care center or daycare center as a facility other than a private residence that receives one or more preschool or school-age children for care for periods of less than 24 hours a day. It does not include family and group child care homes, which have a separate set of licensing requirements. The licensing rules for child care centers used here apply as of June 4, 2008.
    General
    Obtain the appropriate licenses. The first requirement applies to the licensee, which is the person seeking or maintaining a license to operate a daycare center. The licensee must demonstrate she is of moral character, and she must submit to a criminal records check and a check for a history of abuse and neglect. The licensee must also develop and implement a written staff training plan that meets certain conditions. The licensee must ensure the daycare center conforms to its licensed child capacity and age limitations. She must also cooperate with official inspections and investigations, maintain contact information records for current and recent employees and enrolled children and maintain a smoke-free environment. There are also staff training requirements, program director qualifications and responsibilities, caregiver qualifications and responsibilities, supervision and ratio requirements, and requirements for staff, volunteers and discipline. Further requirements are for equipment, nighttime care, food services and nutrition, children's records, health care policies and resources, emergency procedures, medication and administrative procedures, child illness, information provided to parents, telephone service, indoor spaces and outdoor play areas. The specific requirements are available at the website for the State Office of Administrative Hearings and Rules: Licensing Rules for Child Care Centers (select the second reference link provided below to access that site).
    Infants and Toddlers
    Adhere to licensing requirements for each age group. Requirements include maintaining a 1-to-4 ratio of caregivers to infants up to 11 months old, a 1-to-4 ratio for young toddlers 12 to 29 months old, and a 1-to-8 ratio for older toddlers 30 to 35 months old. The maximum group size for infants and young toddlers is 12; the maximum group size for older toddlers is 16. Other requirements for infants and toddlers address primary care, bedding and sleeping equipment, infant sleeping and supervision, formula, milk, food, diapering and toileting. For specifics, refer to the second reference link provided below.
    School-Age Children
    Satisfy daycare requirements for school-age children. Requirements for the school-age program director include being present in the center fulltime or for a minimum of six hours a day, being at least 21 years old, having a high school diploma or equivalent and having certification in child and adult cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) and first aid. Further requirements include developing, implementing and evaluating center policies and programs, administering day-to-day operations, overseeing staff and meeting specific education and experience requirements. These daycare centers must maintain a 1-to-18 ratio of caregivers to children 3 to 12 years old and a 1-to-25 ratio of caregivers to children 13 to 17 years old. Other requirements deal with health records, multisite school-age program directors and site supervisor qualifications and responsibilities. For specific requirements, refer to the second reference link provided below.
    Other Requirements
    Satisfy all other requirements. The remaining daycare requirements address swimming, transportation, fire safety and environmental health. Swimming requirements include a swimming caregiver-to-child ratio, swimming activity supervision, instructional swim and swimming activity area. Transportation requirements relate to motor vehicles, multifunction school activity buses, safety equipment in motor vehicles, manufacturer's rated seating capacity, restraint devices, safety belts, motor vehicle operator, caregiver-to-child ratio and supervision and parent permission for routine transportation. Fire safety and environmental health requirements are subject to the daycare rules and other federal, state and local regulations. For specific requirements, refer to the second reference link provided below.


    Read more: Michigan Daycare Requirements | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/list_6597057_mic...#ixzz0wbiZInUD

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    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.
    Sec. 5o.

    (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

    (b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.

    (c) A sports arena or stadium.

    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.

    (e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.

    (f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.

    (2) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the Michigan administrative code promulgated under the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, 1996 IL 1, MCL 432.201 to 432.226.

    (3) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).

    (4) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) An individual licensed under this act who is a retired police officer or retired law enforcement officer. The concealed weapon licensing board may require a letter from the law enforcement agency stating that the retired police officer or law enforcement officer retired in good standing.

    (b) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is employed or contracted by an entity described under subsection (1) to provide security services and is required by his or her employer or the terms of a contract to carry a concealed firearm on the premises of the employing or contracting entity.

    (c) An individual who is licensed as a private investigator or private detective under the professional investigator licensure act, 1965 PA 285, MCL 338.821 to 338.851.

    (d) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is a corrections officer of a county sheriff's department.

    (e) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is a motor carrier officer or capitol security officer of the department of state police.

    (f) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is a member of a sheriff's posse.

    (g) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is an auxiliary officer or reserve officer of a police or sheriff's department.

    (h) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is a parole or probation officer of the department of corrections.

    (i) A state court judge or state court retired judge who is licensed under this act. The concealed weapon licensing board may require a state court retired judge to obtain and carry a letter from the judicial tenure commission stating that the state court retired judge is in good standing as authorized under section 30 of article VI of the state constitution of 1963, and rules promulgated under that section, in order to qualify under this subdivision.

    (5) An individual who violates this section is responsible for a state civil infraction or guilty of a crime as follows:

    (a) Except as provided in subdivisions (b) and (c), the individual is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $500.00. The court shall order the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol suspended for 6 months.

    (b) For a second violation, the individual is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not more than $1,000.00. The court shall order the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol revoked.

    (c) For a third or subsequent violation, the individual is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years or a fine of not more than $5,000.00, or both. The court shall order the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol revoked.

  13. #13
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    lets have a a picnic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by lapeer20m View Post
    lets have a a picnic!
    Short on time, according to the posting it would only be a violation till the 20th. In the short term I feel good I got the main sign removed but I need help setting them straight on the other. Anyone willing to help? The township director said he is willing to meet with me in I wanted, I am going to shoot him a email back on the new sign and would like some ideals on things I should include. It took less than 1 week for me to get the initial sign down and he has seemed by that willing to work with me so i do not want to bombard him with multiple people coming at him from all angles just yet. I still have hope. Feel free to PM me ideals, I have a picture of the sign also on my phone I can text to anyone, send a text to 734-775-1313 if you would like a copy, Ill be off the computer for a hour at least so a text or call is the best way to get a hold of me for that time period.

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Well it's a step in the right direction on their part. It's Almost the 20th now so ... whatever floats their boat. Next Friday is the 20th If you want I can meet you at the park at 4:01 pm if you like?

    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 08-16-2010 at 12:26 AM. Reason: typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    Well it's a step in the right direction on their part. It's Almost the 20th now so ... whatever floats their boat. Next Friday is the 20th I you want I can meet you at the park at 4:01 pm if you like?


    I am going to include in my letter to him that since he quoted a statute that pertains to concealed carry I made sure I was openly carrying :P

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    Never fails to amaze me how people will hang on to their gun control with their fingernails if thats all they have left.

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    I'm in for a picnic if you guys decide to go that route.

  19. #19
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    I really don't thnk they can claim the park a day care center...nice try though.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    I really don't thnk they can claim the park a day care center...nice try though.
    Nor do I... but this is just an example of how desperate petty tyrants become when they feel their power to control slipping from their fingers.

    And I am sure it will get worse as more and more of "we the people" wake up and jerk these jerks up short on their leash. Every possible sneaky underhanded perversion of, or back door in, or end run around, the law will be tried. Because that is what elitist control freaks do.... connive for power.

    I'm happy to see folks jumping onto every sneaky slime trick being tried and exposing it to the light of day.

    As Venator said long before I did..... (not a quote)

    Open carry is about much, much more than just carrying a gun in plain sight.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Choover...Who's daycare is it? Is it a county run daycare? I'm coming out there for a visit...I'll be requesting a copy of the license to see the address listed. A daycare on a field trip to a museum doesn't turn the museum into a daycare. Stay tuned.

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    Even if they could pull this off, ehich I am convinced that they cannot, you can still OC with a CPL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    Choover...Who's daycare is it? Is it a county run daycare? I'm coming out there for a visit...I'll be requesting a copy of the license to see the address listed. A daycare on a field trip to a museum doesn't turn the museum into a daycare. Stay tuned.
    thats going to be the main point of my letter, to ask if they are licensed and had the proper inspections

    I would like to see a list of all the requirements for a daycare / child care facility
    Last edited by choover; 08-15-2010 at 02:08 AM.

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    Regular Member sprinklerguy28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    Choover...Who's daycare is it? Is it a county run daycare? I'm coming out there for a visit...I'll be requesting a copy of the license to see the address listed. A daycare on a field trip to a museum doesn't turn the museum into a daycare. Stay tuned.
    Road trip!!! I'm in.

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    Thumbs up Count me in!

    Quote Originally Posted by sprinklerguy28 View Post
    Road trip!!! I'm in.
    I'll be happy to attend also! Keep us informed as things develop please.

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