Breakdown

Jaysann22 · Aug 8, 2010

*I WANT TO MAKE IT CLEAR THIS IS NOT MEANT FOR STRICT LEGAL ADVICE, NO ONE SHOULD TAKE THE COMMENTS OR OPINIONS AS SUCH*

Is there anyone that knows a good breakdown of how to deal with a LEO when stopped about your CCW/OC?

Such as, what to say and how to respond to the LEO without it resulting in arrest or misunderstanding.

I have not yet been stopped/questioned/harassed yet, but if I do, some of your opinions and advice would help ease my concern.

sohighlyunlikely · Aug 8, 2010

[video=youtube;JkUj7CdOpTI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkUj7CdOpTI[/video]

Jaysann22 · Aug 8, 2010

Wow, that a-hole just disarmed you. THAT is a crime. To me it is and should be to every American. That LEO should have been suspended or penalized in some manner for acting illegal. THIS is what I have been preaching. LEOs have zero accountability and THAT is why they act illegally, that is why citizens have an overall distrust of most police, and THIS is why police don't know the law because many aren't motivated to do so because they have ZERO accountability.

Sorry for the rant but this was an out right travesty... As far as I am concerned this is no different than what happened in New Orleans after Katrina.

peterarthur · Aug 8, 2010

Jaysann22 said:
*I WANT TO MAKE IT CLEAR THIS IS NOT MEANT FOR STRICT LEGAL ADVICE, NO ONE SHOULD TAKE THE COMMENTS OR OPINIONS AS SUCH*

Is there anyone that knows a good breakdown of how to deal with a LEO when stopped about your CCW/OC?

Such as, what to say and how to respond to the LEO without it resulting in arrest or misunderstanding.

I have not yet been stopped/questioned/harassed yet, but if I do, some of your opinions and advice would help ease my concern.

RidleyReport on youtube has ALOT of good info (based on living in New Hampshire) but he brings up alot of good questions and things to think about. Also, my favorite is CheckPointUSA on youtube. He really goes to the extreme of NEVER answering questions by an LEO. I tried this once and the LEO was frustrated but he eventually let me go. It really depends on IF you wish to engage. I will talk to LEO's that start and CONTINUE in a friendly tone but ALWAYS remember, they are NOT your friend. He might be a really great guy but he is still an LEO with a job and for some, NOT ALL, that means getting money into the legal system. I have found for the most part that the conversation goes nowhere and I end up feeling lectured by a fascist. Not saying they are BAD for doing it but that is how most are probably trained. They have a dangerous job that requires a certain mindset. The ones that forget their job is dangerous die http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF-BtESLEsU

So I try to remember that, mostly, conversing with police is unproductive, frustrating for both parties, and legally dangerous for the "suspect" during an illegal detention. But do what you like. I cave in to the temptation regularly because I am the eternal optimist who projects my good intentions onto others. Good luck.

Jaysann22 · Aug 8, 2010

peterarthur said:
RidleyReport on youtube has ALOT of good info (based on living in New Hampshire) but he brings up alot of good questions and things to think about. Also, my favorite is CheckPointUSA on youtube. He really goes to the extreme of NEVER answering questions by an LEO. I tried this once and the LEO was frustrated but he eventually let me go. It really depends on IF you wish to engage. I will talk to LEO's that start and CONTINUE in a friendly tone but ALWAYS remember, they are NOT your friend. He might be a really great guy but he is still an LEO with a job and for some, NOT ALL, that means getting money into the legal system. I have found for the most part that the conversation goes nowhere and I end up feeling lectured by a fascist. Not saying they are BAD for doing it but that is how most are probably trained. They have a dangerous job that requires a certain mindset. The ones that forget their job is dangerous die http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF-BtESLEsU

So I try to remember that, mostly, conversing with police is unproductive, frustrating for both parties, and legally dangerous for the "suspect" during an illegal detention. But do what you like. I cave in to the temptation regularly because I am the eternal optimist who projects my good intentions onto others. Good luck.

I understand and i appreciate your input. I have watched some of the ridleyreport but its NH and the laws there are less restrictive than MO. He is helpful but being NH, the laws may differ significantly which makes me uneasy about using his strict advice. I will definitely check out checkpointUSA and hopefully that will help as well. Thanks for the link.

As far as that vid goes, that was a horrible tragedy, but the cop was careless and overconfident and it cost him his life. Very sad.

LMTD · Aug 8, 2010

Jaysann22 said:
Wow, that a-hole just disarmed you. THAT is a crime.

As far as I am concerned this is no different than what happened in New Orleans after Katrina.

Ok, now I have noticed another part of the problem that developed between you and I, that 22 on your nick name likely indicates an age as it has become kind of clear you may well be young.

I do not share your opinion here at all. Do not forget, that officer thought (wrongfully so) that he was witnessing a crime. He believed that open carry was restricted in St Charles city, he was wrong 100% but had he been right, he has a sworn duty to uphold the law. Add to that that he has said he was sorry to Doc and admitted he was wrong. That is a stand up man who made a mistake, one he will not make again as he now knows the law.

What happened in LA during the hurricane and aftermath was intentional and illegal disarming of citizens even in their own homes. They made no "mistake" they KNEW what they were doing and it was a violation of the law and did it anyway.

Cops get to make mistakes too, they just don't get to do the on purpose thing. Yes they can be made to pay for mistakes, but why when you know it was an honest one, he thought Doc was violating the law and while he was a little condescending, he did back off when Doc remained polite. He is now a better cop for it and a positive thing for OC came out of it.

If you have an hour http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

Advice from an old fart is all it is, give it a look and see what evolves.

Ruby · Aug 8, 2010

Go to flexyourrights.com

Jaysann22 · Aug 8, 2010

LMTD said:
Ok, now I have noticed another part of the problem that developed between you and I, that 22 on your nick name likely indicates an age as it has become kind of clear you may well be young.

I do not share your opinion here at all. Do not forget, that officer thought (wrongfully so) that he was witnessing a crime. He believed that open carry was restricted in St Charles city, he was wrong 100% but had he been right, he has a sworn duty to uphold the law. Add to that that he has said he was sorry to Doc and admitted he was wrong. That is a stand up man who made a mistake, one he will not make again as he now knows the law.

What happened in LA during the hurricane and aftermath was intentional and illegal disarming of citizens even in their own homes. They made no "mistake" they KNEW what they were doing and it was a violation of the law and did it anyway.

Cops get to make mistakes too, they just don't get to do the on purpose thing. Yes they can be made to pay for mistakes, but why when you know it was an honest one, he thought Doc was violating the law and while he was a little condescending, he did back off when Doc remained polite. He is now a better cop for it and a positive thing for OC came out of it.

If you have an hour http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

Advice from an old fart is all it is, give it a look and see what evolves.

Actually im 26. I created the name WHEN i was 22. Good guess though.

However, I will honorably and politely disagree. The police demand respect as they are to uphold the law and by doing so they should know it. However I do understand that every piece of legislation cannot be memorized or kept track of, when it comes to these sort of things, I do believe cops should keep up with it. As firearm rights are exercised VERY often and is a VERY sensitive issue. So, i would think cops would ATLEAST keep up with that. I do respect the cop for recognizing his error and apologizing, however, when i happen to miss a speed limit sign, honest mistake or not, an apology hardly EVER gets ME off the hook when stopped. Why should it in this case?

Jaysann22 · Aug 8, 2010

Ruby said:
Go to flexyourrights.com

hey thanks! will do.

LMTD · Aug 9, 2010

Jaysann22 said:
Actually im 26. I created the name WHEN i was 22. Good guess though.

However, I will honorably and politely disagree. The police demand respect as they are to uphold the law and by doing so they should know it. However I do understand that every piece of legislation cannot be memorized or kept track of, when it comes to these sort of things, I do believe cops should keep up with it. As firearm rights are exercised VERY often and is a VERY sensitive issue. So, i would think cops would ATLEAST keep up with that. I do respect the cop for recognizing his error and apologizing, however, when i happen to miss a speed limit sign, honest mistake or not, an apology hardly EVER gets ME off the hook when stopped. Why should it in this case?

Missouri statues alone would fill your entire house with paper.

Exercised very often? Uhm, not really, very few folks in this entire state open carry, it is extremely rare and up until a couple of years ago was basically almost non-existent. That officer was no spring chicken and it was obviously his first encounter with it, he spent 20 minutes looking for the law he was sure was violated, a pretty sure sign he is not very often he has had to deal with it at all. It might be the first time in a 20 year career.

He may also have served as an officer in a city in the metro area where it is indeed against the law and was enforcing a law in a jurisdiction that it did not apply, no different than you walking across one street and it becoming illegal.

You may never agree, but I think you will learn that just about 100% of the gun advocates would say this was nothing like Katrina and considering everything involved, it was handled poorly, not badly by the officers and that a mistake vs an on purpose violation is a sign of a totalitarian attitude by the police in contrast to a tyranny or police state. The beginning of the slippery slope, needs to be corrected and it appears from the "sorry" that it was a self repairing mistake, tyranny does not get repaired, it gets worse.

Jaysann22 · Aug 9, 2010

LMTD said:
Missouri statues alone would fill your entire house with paper.

Exercised very often? Uhm, not really, very few folks in this entire state open carry, it is extremely rare and up until a couple of years ago was basically almost non-existent. That officer was no spring chicken and it was obviously his first encounter with it, he spent 20 minutes looking for the law he was sure was violated, a pretty sure sign he is not very often he has had to deal with it at all. It might be the first time in a 20 year career.

He may also have served as an officer in a city in the metro area where it is indeed against the law and was enforcing a law in a jurisdiction that it did not apply, no different than you walking across one street and it becoming illegal.

You may never agree, but I think you will learn that just about 100% of the gun advocates would say this was nothing like Katrina and considering everything involved, it was handled poorly, not badly by the officers and that a mistake vs an on purpose violation is a sign of a totalitarian attitude by the police in contrast to a tyranny or police state. The beginning of the slippery slope, needs to be corrected and it appears from the "sorry" that it was a self repairing mistake, tyranny does not get repaired, it gets worse.

I meant gun rights in general. CCW/OC or otherwise.

I'll admit you made a point. The officers actions in New Orleans differed much in their intent. So, I'll retract my exaggerated comparison. However, I will not retract my statement of illegally disarming a citizen, honest misunderstanding or not, is STILL a crime. I still believe officers in the field having FULL accountability is the key to reducing mistakes like these and improving relations with citizens.

Jaysann22 · Aug 9, 2010

Cops get to make mistakes too, they just don't get to do the on purpose thing. Yes they can be made to pay for mistakes, but why when you know it was an honest one, he thought Doc was violating the law and while he was a little condescending, he did back off when Doc remained polite. He is now a better cop for it and a positive thing for OC came out of it.

I watched the vid again and I had to say this. The cop was VERY careless, ill informed, and quite arrogant. He didn't even know the CCW endorsement can be on a drivers license or where it was on the drivers license. THATS pretty common knowledge. And the cop really didn't become polite until after he started realizing he may be wrong. So, no sympathy from me Officer Incompetent!!

Packer fan · Aug 9, 2010

I have a question, why did the officer take the OCed firearm but not the CCed if it was for officer's protection, or were both firearms taken?

cash50 · Aug 9, 2010

LMTD said:
Missouri statues alone would fill your entire house with paper.

Exercised very often? Uhm, not really, very few folks in this entire state open carry, it is extremely rare and up until a couple of years ago was basically almost non-existent. That officer was no spring chicken and it was obviously his first encounter with it, he spent 20 minutes looking for the law he was sure was violated, a pretty sure sign he is not very often he has had to deal with it at all. It might be the first time in a 20 year career.

He may also have served as an officer in a city in the metro area where it is indeed against the law and was enforcing a law in a jurisdiction that it did not apply, no different than you walking across one street and it becoming illegal.

You may never agree, but I think you will learn that just about 100% of the gun advocates would say this was nothing like Katrina and considering everything involved, it was handled poorly, not badly by the officers and that a mistake vs an on purpose violation is a sign of a totalitarian attitude by the police in contrast to a tyranny or police state. The beginning of the slippery slope, needs to be corrected and it appears from the "sorry" that it was a self repairing mistake, tyranny does not get repaired, it gets worse.

LMTD, I know you are somewhat anti-OC, whatever your reasons are, but to call this cop a "stand-up" guy? Do you know him? If he was an officer in the city, he should have updated himself when he cames to the suburbs. This isn't the end of the world, but things could have been better if he would have been informed. St. Charles cops - not all of them - trample rights all the time and justify it through lies on paper, this time just appears unintentional.

LMTD · Aug 9, 2010

cash50 said:
LMTD, I know you are somewhat anti-OC, whatever your reasons are, but to call this cop a "stand-up" guy? Do you know him? If he was an officer in the city, he should have updated himself when he cames to the suburbs. This isn't the end of the world, but things could have been better if he would have been informed. St. Charles cops - not all of them - trample rights all the time and justify it through lies on paper, this time just appears unintentional.

Cash I know you carry baggage from another forum and you are not capable of rational thought so it is not possible to effectively communicate why when a man makes a mistake and he admits it it makes him a stand up guy. I know you have never experienced this yourself as you do not remotely qualify, but that is what it is, admitting you made a mistake and trying to make amends.

I do not know him and I do not condone his behavior but it does not compare to the illegal activities during Katrina, did he break the law, yes, he made a mistake and violated Doc and Mikes civil rights. Is it a great example of why what Doc does is highly effective and changes things, yes it is. Was it good for OC, yes it was, should the officer be hung out to dry for it and lose his job, no, not in my opinion. There are far worse examples of police abuse than this and no I do not expect you to understand it at any level because all you ever want to do is cry foul.

Boo freakin Hoo, scapegoat elsewhere, we need it no more. It wasn't impressive the first time and it has not improved since.

sohighlyunlikely · Aug 9, 2010

clarifier

Packer fan said:
I have a question, why did the officer take the OCed firearm but not the CCed if it was for officer's protection, or were both firearms taken?

Both firearms were taken The conceal carry guy was asked if he had a weapon when he said yes and pointed to his shirt near his waist. The officer pulled up his shirt and seized the gun. The 3rd guy(unarmed) was pulled on and searched even though he said he did not have a weapon. His apparent suspicious crime "standing next to me while I was Open Carry'ing"

Doc

Packer fan · Aug 9, 2010

sohighlyunlikely said:
Both firearms were taken The conceal carry guy was asked if he had a weapon when he said yes and pointed to his shirt near his waist. The officer pulled up his shirt and seized the gun. The 3rd guy(unarmed) was pulled on and searched even though he said he did not have a weapon. His apparent suspicious crime "standing next to me while I was Open Carry'ing"

Doc

I watched the second video and saw that the second guy was handed his gun back. The officer that stayed around, although may not have been to his liking that you were OC, seemed to be an alright guy.

peterarthur · Aug 9, 2010

sohighlyunlikely said:
[video=youtube;JkUj7CdOpTI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkUj7CdOpTI[/video]

"Didn't want to mess up that chrome..." lol...
Way to stay calm guys. It is astonishing to hear how little the officers know about the law.
And violation of your 4th amendment rights is justified for officer safety...? :/ Gotta remember that one...
And why hand over your ID's or volunteer that you were armed if CCW? You guys are too nice

But this was definitely different from Katrina. Illegal search and seizure but done in the name of officer safety temporarily. Forgiveable I suppose if done out of ignorance... as long as they don't do it again...

sohighlyunlikely · Aug 9, 2010

20 min

Packer fan said:
I watched the second video and saw that the second guy was handed his gun back. The officer that stayed around, although may not have been to his liking that you were OC, seemed to be an alright guy.

He became aware of the camera sitting in the hand of Big Mike about mid video. You will see him look at it and put on a small grin and change his toon on challenging anyone on how they carry a firearm. Yes it could have gone much much worse. If you had to have your civil rights violated for 20min I suppose this would be the most tolerable way to have it done to you.

Doc

cash50 · Aug 10, 2010

LMTD said:
Cash I know you carry baggage from another forum and you are not capable of rational thought so it is not possible to effectively communicate why when a man makes a mistake and he admits it it makes him a stand up guy. I know you have never experienced this yourself as you do not remotely qualify, but that is what it is, admitting you made a mistake and trying to make amends.

I do not know him and I do not condone his behavior but it does not compare to the illegal activities during Katrina, did he break the law, yes, he made a mistake and violated Doc and Mikes civil rights. Is it a great example of why what Doc does is highly effective and changes things, yes it is. Was it good for OC, yes it was, should the officer be hung out to dry for it and lose his job, no, not in my opinion. There are far worse examples of police abuse than this and no I do not expect you to understand it at any level because all you ever want to do is cry foul.

Boo freakin Hoo, scapegoat elsewhere, we need it no more. It wasn't impressive the first time and it has not improved since.

As always, a hostile response, I know nobody can disagree without you getting mad.

I'll ask again for confirmation of stand-up guy status : DO YOU KNOW THIS COP? How can you call him a stand-up guy?

What baggage do I have? I'm only on one other gun forum, and I didn't know you were on that one either.

And also, what makes you think I'm not capable of rational thought? I can understand a hell of a lot more than you might think, and probably more than you. You are pretty rude on the internet, not that I want to hear you talk **** about another "I'll meet you in person to discuss this further" BS from you - because we already know how that would go.

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