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Thread: Carry on NC Public Property

  1. #1
    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Carry on NC Public Property

    This thread was created after some light debate regarding carry in ABC stores, whether or not public property can legally be posted against carry, etc. in the thread OC experience reports.

    In this post, I'll be detailing information I've found regarding OC on public property. There will be some CC crossover, and if anyone wants to put up information on CC in addition to OC, feel free. It's all useful information.

    Remember, I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, so on and so forth. Do your own research, I will not be held liable.

    Statutes, links, and commentary follow. Statutes will be, in all cases, in quote blocks. Commentary will not. All color emphasis will be made by me. In most cases, I have only copied and pasted certain parts of the statutes, and should be easily distinguishable both by numbering and use of ellipses(...). Statutes were retrieved from http://www.ncleg.net/gascripts/Statutes/Statutes.asp

    § 14‑409.40. Statewide uniformity of local regulation.
    ...
    (f) Nothing contained in this section prohibits municipalities or counties from application of their authority under G.S. 153A‑129, 160A‑189, 14‑269, 14‑269.2, 14‑269.3, 14‑269.4, 14‑277.2, 14‑415.11, 14‑415.23, including prohibiting the possession of firearms in public‑owned buildings, on the grounds or parking areas of those buildings, or in public parks or recreation areas, except nothing in this subsection shall prohibit a person from storing a firearm within a motor vehicle while the vehicle is on these grounds or areas. Nothing contained in this section prohibits municipalities or counties from exercising powers provided by law in declared states of emergency under Article 36A of this Chapter.
    ...
    As you see in red above, it appears that municipalities and counties have the ability to prohibit 'possession of firearms in public‑owned buildings, on the grounds or parking areas of those buildings, or in public parks or recreation areas.' However, when looking at all of the given statutes, this appears to be overly broad and mis-representative of the given statutes, and therefore the actual legal permissions to prohibit carry.

    § 153A‑129. Firearms.

    A county may by ordinance regulate, restrict, or prohibit the discharge of firearms at any time or place except when used to take birds or animals pursuant to Chapter 113, Subchapter IV, when used in defense of person or property, or when used pursuant to lawful directions of law‑enforcement officers. A county may also regulate the display of firearms on the public roads, sidewalks, alleys, or other public property. This section does not limit a county's authority to take action under Chapter 14, Article 36A. (1973, c. 822, s. 1; 2006‑264, s. 16.)
    Pretty straightforward. This pertains to discharge of firearms only.

    § 160A‑189. Firearms.

    A city may by ordinance regulate, restrict, or prohibit the discharge of firearms at any time or place within the city except when used in defense of person or property or pursuant to lawful directions of law‑enforcement officers, and may regulate the display of firearms on the streets, sidewalks, alleys, or other public property. Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit a city's authority to take action under Article 36A of Chapter 14 of the General Statutes. (1971, c. 698, s. 1.)
    Still about discharge of firearms.

    § 14‑269. Carrying concealed weapons.
    ...
    (a1) It shall be unlawful for any person willfully and intentionally to carry concealed about his person any pistol or gun except in the following circumstances:
    ...
    This statute relates to concealed carry only.

    § 14‑269.2. Weapons on campus or other educational property.
    ...
    § 14‑269.3. Carrying weapons into assemblies and establishments where alcoholic beverages are sold and consumed.
    ...
    Don't carry at schools, bars, restaurants that serve alcohol, you know the drill. The only reason I put these in is to cover all statutes shown in § 14-409.40(f).

    § 14‑269.4. Weapons on State property and in courthouses.

    It shall be unlawful for any person to possess, or carry, whether openly or concealed, any deadly weapon, not used solely for instructional or officially sanctioned ceremonial purposes in the State Capitol Building, the Executive Mansion, the Western Residence of the Governor, or on the grounds of any of these buildings, and in any building housing any court of the General Court of Justice. If a court is housed in a building containing nonpublic uses in addition to the court, then this prohibition shall apply only to that portion of the building used for court purposes while the building is being used for court purposes.
    ...
    This is the only statute I have found regarding carry on public property not specifically about concealed carry only. As you can see, the heading of the statute makes it appear as though state property is off-limits. However, this does not appear to be the case when the statute is actually read. It clearly states that the statute applies to the State Capitol Building, the Executive Mansion, the Western Residence of the Governor, or on the grounds of any of these buildings, and in any building housing any court of the General Court of Justice.

    § 14‑277.2. Weapons at parades, etc., prohibited.
    ...
    Don't carry weapons at parades, etc.

    § 14‑415.11. Permit to carry concealed handgun; scope of permit.
    Relates to concealed carry only.

    § 14‑415.23. Statewide uniformity.

    It is the intent of the General Assembly to prescribe a uniform system for the regulation of legally carrying a concealed handgun. To insure uniformity, no political subdivisions, boards, or agencies of the State nor any county, city, municipality, municipal corporation, town, township, village, nor any department or agency thereof, may enact ordinances, rules, or regulations concerning legally carrying a concealed handgun. A unit of local government may adopt an ordinance to permit the posting of a prohibition against carrying a concealed handgun, in accordance with G.S. 14‑415.11(c), on local government buildings, their appurtenant premises, and parks. (1995, c. 398, s. 1.)
    This is still part of § 14‑415, and is therefore about concealed carry only. Furthermore, the blue part above appears to be the source for the vague wording in § 14‑409.40(f), "prohibiting the possession of firearms in public‑owned buildings, on the grounds or parking areas of those buildings, or in public parks or recreation areas."

    Hopefully this will get some discussion going and we can get some of the laws here clarified and/or changed. I don't have any experience dealing with the legal system so maybe someone else can help out there.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    From the City of Cary's Municipal statutes:

    Sec. 22-51. Prohibition of the carrying and display of firearms and other weapons at certain public locations.

    (a) Firearms, generally. No person shall possess firearms in town-owned buildings, on the grounds or parking areas of those buildings, or in town parks or recreation areas, including greenways, except nothing in this section shall prohibit a person from storing a firearm within a motor vehicle while the vehicle is on these grounds or areas.
    (b) Posting required. The director of public works or his designated representative is hereby authorized and instructed to post conspicuous signage at appropriate locations on or within each park, including greenways, and each building or portion of a building owned, leased as lessee, operated, occupied, managed or controlled by the town, as well as the appurtenant premises to such buildings, indicating that carrying a concealed handgun or possessing or displaying any firearm or any other deadly weapon, as defined in G.S. § 14-269(a), on the properties and locations described in this section is prohibited therein and thereon unless specifically permitted or authorized by state law or the provisions of the town's code of ordinances.
    (c) Location. Signs on buildings shall be visibly posted on the exterior of each entrance by which the general public can access the building. The director of public works or his designated representative shall exercise discretion in determining the number and appropriate location of signs to be placed on or within appurtenant premises and parks, including town greenways.
    (d) Applicability to other public locations. No person shall display any firearm or other deadly weapon as defined in G.S. § 14-269(a) while on any public street, alley, sidewalk or other public property within the town unless specifically permitted or authorized by law.
    (e) Exceptions. The following exceptions to the provisions of this section are authorized:
    (1) The chief of police, or designee, has authorized the public possession or display of a firearm, or other weapon, as part of an official program or event sponsored or sanctioned by the town;
    (2) The possession or display of the firearm, or other weapon, was the result of an individual(s) exercising his legitimate right to self defense or the defense of others as allowed by law;
    (3) The possession or display of the firearm, or other weapon, was conducted by a person(s) authorized by law to carry and display such items as part of their official or otherwise recognized lawful duties (e.g., law enforcement officers, military personnel, security guards, etc.); or
    (4) The possession or display of the firearm, or other weapon, was necessary for the temporary transport and securing of the item and was not otherwise in violation of existing statutes or ordinances (e.g., recent purchase and movement to vehicle for transport, securing of firearm by CCH permit holder in vehicle, found item to be turned in to authorities, firearm in approved vehicle gun rack, etc.).
    (f) Violation. The carrying of concealed handguns or the possession or display of any firearm or other dangerous weapon as defined in this section, in or upon any of the locations specified by this section, shall constitute a misdemeanor and subject any violator(s) so convicted to such penalties as may be imposed by the court.
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  3. #3
    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    How is that (city) statute not in direct violation of § 14‑409.40?

  4. #4
    Regular Member elixin77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sultan62 View Post
    How is that (city) statute not in direct violation of § 14‑409.40?
    Cary likes to think they are above the law.

    At least, thats my guess
    Taurus PT1911 .45 ACP. Carried in condition 1, with a total of 25 rounds.

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    It isn't just Cary:

    Kernersville:

    Sec. 5-61. Establishment and regulations governing the annual Spring Folly.
    (a) Creation and authorization for event.
    (1) An annual festival to be known as The Spring Folly is hereby established.
    (2) All regulations as set forth in provisions of subsection (b) of this section shall be in effect within the "designated area" as defined in subsection (a)(5) during all such times as may be declared annually by the board of aldermen of the town by resolution for The Spring Folly.
    (3) The town chamber of commerce is designated and authorized as the coordinating entity for The Spring Folly.
    (4) The town chamber of commerce shall purchase from the town a privilege license in accordance with the ordinances of the town governing the same, for the conduct of business during The Spring Folly.
    (5) The town chamber of commerce may utilize any public property, including but not limited to parks, streets, sidewalks, and town property for the purposes of conducting The Spring Folly within the area shown on the attached map (exhibit A), which is incorporated within this section and hereinafter referred to as "designated area."
    (6) The town chamber of commerce is authorized to exercise general control over all activities within the designated area.
    (7) The town chamber of commerce is authorized to establish a permitting process for any and all arts, crafts, recreation, solicitation, exhibit, exhibition, booth, sale of goods, and/or other activity(ies) within the designated area.
    (8) The town chamber of commerce shall establish opening and closing times for all activities within the designated area except as to those businesses identified under subsection (b)(1)b.
    (9) The town chamber of commerce shall control placement of all activities within the designated area, provided that in addition thereto:
    a. All recreational and entertainment activities shall be approved by the town recreation director; and
    b. No permit for any activity shall be issued by the chamber of commerce for placement of such activity in front of any business identified under subsection (b)(1)b. without the express approval of the owner(s) of such business.
    (b) Regulations governing events.
    (1) No arts, crafts, recreation, game, concession, entertainment, exhibition, booth, sale of goods, business or other activity shall be established, set up or occur within the designated area except:
    a. As authorized by the town chamber of commerce; or
    b. As to businesses occupying permanently established structures and possessing a valid privilege license issued by the town.
    (2) No individual shall operate any activity within the designated area except in accordance with section (b)(1)b.
    (3) Except for emergency vehicles and those vehicles authorized by the chief of police, no other vehicle(s) shall have access to the designated area except as authorized by the town chamber of commerce.
    (4) No alcoholic beverage(s) shall be possessed, nor consumed, within the designated area except within the premises of those businesses identified under (b)(1)b.
    (5) No person shall at any time have in his possession any firearm or dangerous weapon within the designated area. This provision shall not be applicable to officers of the police department nor officers of other law enforcement agencies.
    (6) No person shall at any time bring into or control within the "designated area" any animal or pet. This provision shall not be applicable to:
    a. Canine units of the town's police department and/or other law enforcement agencies;
    b. Any animal or pet whose owner resides within the "designated area" of The Spring Folly and which remains upon the property of its owner;
    c. Any "guide dog" used to assist visually impaired and/or physically handicapped persons; and
    d. Any "petting zoo" or other attraction authorized and approved by the town's chamber of commerce and the town's parks and recreation director.
    (c) Any violation of this section, or any subsection thereof, shall constitute a misdemeanor and shall be punished by a fine not exceeding five hundred dollars ($500.00) or by imprisonment for a term not to exceed thirty (30) days, or both.
    (Ord. No. 93-8, 4-6-93; Ord. No. 00-26, 10-3-00)

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    Salisbury:

    Sec. 22-154. Firearms.
    Except for sworn certified law enforcement personnel, the possession of firearms in the public street festival or special event area is prohibited.
    (Ord. No. 2008-48, § 1, 9-16-08)

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    Kannapolis:

    Sec. 11-1.1. Weapons prohibited on city property.
    (a) Prohibited. Except as provided in subsection (b) below, all persons are prohibited from possessing weapons as defined in North Carolina General Statute 14-269 upon any building or property owned, occupied, or controlled by the City of Kannapolis.
    (b) Exceptions. This prohibition shall not apply to the following persons:
    (1) Officers and enlisted personnel of the armed forces of the United States when in discharge of their official duties as such and acting under orders requiring them to carry weapons.
    (2) Civil officers of the United States while in the discharge of their official duties.
    (3) Officers and soldiers of the militia and national guard when called into actual service.
    (4) Sworn law enforcement officers;
    (5) Animal control officers when in discharge of their official duties as such and acting under governmental policies or regulation authorizing them to carry weapons.
    (c) Notice posted. A conspicuous notice shall be posted at each entrance to any property set forth in subsection (a) above stating: "POSSESSION OF WEAPONS OR CARRYING A CONCEALED HANDGUN IS PROHIBITED."
    (d) Penalties.
    (1) Any person in violation of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and upon conviction shall be fined five hundred dollars ($500.00) or imprisoned for six (6) months or both.
    (2) Weapons possessed in violation of this ordinance are hereby declared to be contraband. The chief of police or his designee shall hold such weapon for disposal pursuant to court order. In the absence of any court order, the weapon shall be destroyed.
    (3) Should any provision of this section be declared invalid or unconstitutional by any court of competent jurisdiction, such declaration shall not affect the validity of the ordinance as a whole or any part thereof which is not specifically declared to be invalid or unconstitutional.
    (Ord. of 8-28-95, § § 1, 2)

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    Interestingly, at least two of the cities I have seen prohibit all possession of firearms inside cemeteries not just at funerals.

    Don't know that would be legal under state law.

  9. #9
    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Both the Salisbury and Kernersville examples probably cite NCGS § 14‑277.2. Not saying it's legally correct, but I can pretty much guarantee that's what they use to back up those cases.

    In any case, is there anything in state laws that would allow these rules, or the posting of public property invalid/illegal?

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    The Kernersville Spring Folly is held on public streets with no admission or any restricted areas designating that the area in question is part of the Folly. It in no way could be considered a parade as the festival is comprised of tents that do not move.

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    Cabarrus County allows CC but not OC but prohibits both in parks
    Sec. 46-4. - Possession of weapons on county property: exceptions.

    (a)Except as provided in subsection (d) below, all persons are prohibited from possessing weapons as defined in G.S. 14-269(a) in or upon any building or property owned or controlled by the county.

    (b)The county manager is directed to post appropriate signage at each park and on each building or portion of a building now or hereafter owned, leased as lessee, operated, occupied, managed or controlled by the county, as well as appurtenant premises to such buildings, indicating that possession of weapons, except lawfully possessed concealed handguns, is prohibited therein.

    (c)The signs shall be visibly posed on the exterior of each entrance by which the general public can access the building, appurtenant premises, or park. The county manager shall exercise discretion in determining the necessity and appropriate location for other signs posted on the interior of the building, appurtenant premises or park.

    (d)This section shall not apply to those person lawfully permitted to possess and carry a concealed handgun pursuant to G.S. 14-269.
    Sec. 50-4. - Weapons; explosives; alcoholic beverages; drugs; dangerous substances.

    It shall be unlawful for any person to bring into or have in his possession any weapon (or any device that, in the reasonable opinion of county law enforcement authorities or park officials can be used as a weapon) including without limitation:

    (1)Any knife (other than reasonably used for picnic or camping purposes), rifle, shotgun, BB gun, air gun, spring gun, slingshot, bow, arrow or any other device or item in which the propelling force is gunpowder, a spring or air, or which is propelled by muscular force, or any explosive of any kind or nature.

    (2)Any mind-altering substances, whether man-made or found in nature, including without limitation, any alcoholic beverage, narcotic drug, hallucinogen, or any controlled substance, without a valid physician's prescription. While in the park, persons should conduct themselves in a proper and orderly manner and shall not display, consume, or be under the influence of alcoholic beverages or any such mind-altering substance without a valid physician's prescription, used as directed by the physician.

    (3)Any fireworks or explosive of any kind or nature unless used as part of a park program by authorized county employees or their agents.
    Concord prohibits firearms on all city property except for city owned houses.
    Sec. 42-11. Weapons prohibited on city property.
    (a) Except as provided in subsection (b) of this section, all persons are prohibited from possessing weapons as defined in G.S. 14-269 in city-owned nonresidential buildings as defined in G.S. 14-54(C), their appurtenant premises and parks.
    (b) This prohibition shall not apply to the following persons:
    (1) Officers and enlisted personnel of the armed forces of the United States when in discharge of their official duties as such and acting under orders requiring them to carry arms and weapons;
    (2) Civil officers of the United States while in the discharge of their official duties;
    (3) Officers and soldiers of the militia and the National Guard when called into actual service;
    (4) Sworn law enforcement officers;
    (5) Persons in transit at the city regional airport may possess tools or hunting or fishing implements, including firearms, if unloaded and in compliance with applicable standards of the Federal Aviation Administration;
    (6) Employees of the city, a utility company, or a contractor to the city, may possess tools approved by their employer so long as such tools are not used as a weapon;
    (7) Persons possessing a written permit from the chief of police to possess weapons for ceremonial purposes or funerals.
    (c) A conspicuous notice shall be posted at each entrance to any property set forth in subsection (a) of this section indicating that: "Possession of weapons or carrying a concealed handgun is prohibited." This indication may be given by use of a symbol. Such symbol is available for inspection at the office of the city clerk.
    (d) Any person in violation of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, shall be fined $500.00 or imprisoned for 30 days, or both.
    (e) Weapons possessed in violation of this section are hereby declared to be contraband. The chief of police or his designee shall hold such weapon for disposal pursuant to court order. In the absence of any court order, the weapon shall be destroyed.
    (Code 1987, § 9-20)
    State law references: Authority to regulate firearms, G.S. 160A-189 et seq.

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