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Thread: MSP Sign

  1. #1
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    MSP Sign

    Hi all, 1st. post.
    FYI was at the Michigan State police post at Corunna Rd. in Flint today.
    They had a no weapons sign on their door to the lobby, asked the desk Sgt.
    about it and he stated no firearms even in the lobby. I was cc at the time
    and did not make an issue about it. Been long time lurking on this sight
    and thought a few might be interested about the sign.
    I had the impression the MSP were pretty "up" about the laws.
    Dave

  2. #2
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    hmmm well sounds like we need to educate them and get it removed.

    Do me a favor and take a picture of the building and the sign please!
    Last edited by autosurgeon; 08-09-2010 at 02:36 PM.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  3. #3
    Regular Member Agent1's Avatar
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    I have been in the Corunna Rd. post many times CC over the last few years and I have never seen any sign. But I admit that I wasn't looking for a sign either. I always thought that it was a non-issue. I have a good friend there, I'll have to ask......

  4. #4
    Regular Member sprinklerguy28's Avatar
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    I'll be in Flint next week, I will have to stop by there and work on getting it corrected.

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    Was the door on the east side of the building near Corunna Rd.
    leading into the small lobby at the desk. I had no way to get a picture at
    the time. Stuck to the door about waist high.
    Dave

  6. #6
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Illegal sign alert!

    MCL 123.1101
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

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    Ok first attempt of adding photo


    one more


    well let's seeif this works
    Dave

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    No courthouse? No sign!

  9. #9
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    That sign is unenforceable. Thank you for the pictures.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    That sign is unenforceable. Thank you for the pictures.
    is it?

    by definition, the STATE police is not a local unit of government. I am not saying the sign is necessarily enforceable, but 123.1102 would not apply in my opinion.

    I was there getting a foia request (genesee county 911 central dispatch is in the same building) and noticed the sign a while back, but forgot to post about it.

    here is a photo i took....this has been stored in my phone for a long time....(the mirror tint on the window makes for difficult photos)

    Last edited by lapeer20m; 08-09-2010 at 10:51 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapeer20m View Post
    is it?

    by definition, the STATE police is not a local unit of government. I was there getting a foia request (genesee county 911 central dispatch is in the same building) and noticed the sign a while back, but forgot to post about it.
    That is absolutely correct. Michigan State Police building is not governed by any local Laws. They are governed by State Lawas. This means that firearms can not be restricted since there is no State Law prohibiting firearms in state owned public buildings. So, sign is still illegal

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    nice catch 601

  13. #13
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    As Sasha said it is not listed as a PFZ by state law and there is no law that gives any state agency power to make a PFZ on there own so therefor it is unenforceable and should come down!

    This has nothing to do with preemption other than the fact that only the state legislature can make something a PFZ and only by statute!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    It looks like a pretty old sign....faded and a bit yellowed.
    I wonder if this sign is a "local" thing at the Flint post or sorta
    standard issue on all of them?
    Today was the only time I can remember being in one of their
    posts.
    My take, based on the attitude of the officer working the desk is
    that you won't be well recieved if you OC in their lobby.
    Dave

  15. #15
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    they are employees of the state, and therefore, us. Their attitudes are irrelevant.

  16. #16
    Regular Member fozzy71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    they are employees of the state, and therefore, us. Their attitudes are irrelevant.
    "I like users who quote smellslikemichigan in their signature lines." - fozzy71

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  18. #18
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    What if the building has a holding cell? Is it then a jail? If I remember correctly, There is a holding cell there. Just throwing that out there.

    I hav'nt been able to get in touch with Steve yet to ask WTF?

  19. #19
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent1 View Post
    What if the building has a holding cell? Is it then a jail? If I remember correctly, There is a holding cell there. Just throwing that out there.

    I hav'nt been able to get in touch with Steve yet to ask WTF?
    I doubt a "holding cell" would be defined as a jail. Besides the lobby would be in an unsecured area of the "jail" and you should be okay. After all you can carry in the lobby of the Sheriff's Department and they have a real jail nearby.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  20. #20
    Regular Member LaVere's Avatar
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    Flint Michigan State Police

    I approched them about two years ago about the sign. He said Yes they can post it and it is legal and enforceable. In a very polite manner I said it is not and to talk to the Attorney General about it. Without answering my question or any other statement. He said get out of here and we're done here. I felt if I would had continued he WOULD had arrested me. By the way I chose NOT to carry for that meeting just in case.

    Good luck to you all.




    P.S. Flint airport also has no weapons sign on their doors. And I could not get them to change either. I was threatened with arrest and I was physicaly removed.
    Last edited by LaVere; 08-10-2010 at 08:55 AM.
    The use of force is a last resort. One aspect of violence is that it is unpredictable. Although your initial intention may be to use limited force, once you have engaged in violence the consequences are unpredictable. Violence always brings about unexpected results and almost always provokes retaliation.

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  21. #21
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaVere View Post
    I approched them about two years ago about the sign. He said Yes they can post it and it is legal and enforceable. In a very polite manner I said it is not and to talk to the Attorney General about it. Without answering my question or any other statement. He said get out of here and we're done here. I felt if I would had continued he WOULD had arrested me. By the way I chose NOT to carry for that meeting just in case.

    Good luck to you all.




    P.S. Flint airport also has no weapons sign on their doors. And I could not get them to change either. I was threatened with arrest and I was physicaly removed.
    You don't deal with this by talking with the desk Sergeant. You send a letter to the post commander and the Director of the state police.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  22. #22
    Regular Member Agent1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    You don't deal with this by talking with the desk Sergeant. You send a letter to the post commander and the Director of the state police.
    I guess It has been there for a very long time. By orders of the post commander.

    I would be more then happy to send out some emails and letters to get this changed. Does anyone have any contact refs handy or am I going to have to Google?
    ‎"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands; one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all."

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    As Sasha said it is not listed as a PFZ by state law and there is no law that gives any state agency power to make a PFZ on there own so therefor it is unenforceable and should come down!

    This has nothing to do with preemption other than the fact that only the state legislature can make something a PFZ and only by statute!
    People, People, People!

    autosurgeon is correct.

    IF you had read the MCRGO v Ferndale decision, then you would not only know where this is supported, but also how. It has less to do with, "What MCL 123.1102 says", than it does with what the courts said. So many people on these boards read these boards, but don't bother to actually read the important stuff. Instead, they rely on someone else to do it for them (sounds a lot like that desk Sergeant). MOC even has a research coordinator to help in this area. He can help you find the info, but you still need to read it to understand it better. No one else can do the work for you.

    The same goes for how one challenges such unlawful signs. Ranting at the gatekeeper does nothing other than send the message that they need not take you seriously. Want to be taken seriously, then get serious.

    If I were to call autosurgeon a, "pickle head", he is smart enough to know that the problem I may have with him is "MY PROBLEM", not his. Likewise, when all you do is rant at the gate keeper, they are going to treat you like a child because that is the message you are sending.

    Don't believe me, or don't like what I said? Then, ask yourself this: "Why would you want to complain to the gatekeeper anyway? What does it accomplish?"

    "Man is the weapon system. They gun is just a tool."

    If you want to be on the front lines of the battle, then you need to properly maintain your weapon.

  24. #24
    Regular Member LaVere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    You don't deal with this by talking with the desk Sergeant. You send a letter to the post commander and the Director of the state police.
    Thank you for your reply. I did contact Director and the regional commander and I got no where. I'm not try to upstage or toot my horn. I'm just updating the history. Good luck to you all. I'll be following your progress. Thank you all of your efforts.
    The use of force is a last resort. One aspect of violence is that it is unpredictable. Although your initial intention may be to use limited force, once you have engaged in violence the consequences are unpredictable. Violence always brings about unexpected results and almost always provokes retaliation.

    Dalai Lama

    ************************************************** ********************

    http://www.generalnewsgroup.com/

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaVere View Post
    Thank you for your reply. I did contact Director and the regional commander and I got no where. I'm not try to upstage or toot my horn. I'm just updating the history. Good luck to you all. I'll be following your progress. Thank you all of your efforts.
    Did they respond at all?

    Do you have documentation of your correspondence with them? (this could be helpful in future efforts)

    BTW: Thank you for your efforts. I thought it was a little strange that someone like you would stop at the desk Sergent. The above sounds more like stuff I've seen you post in the past. Please understand that my above post was not directed at anyone individually. It applies to some, and to others not. I make no judgment as to whom falls into which category, since that is up to each individual themselves to determine.

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