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Thread: Retailer Permission Slip Form

  1. #1
    Regular Member fdmuchow's Avatar
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    Question Retailer Permission Slip Form

    I was very pleased to read the article in Sunday's Janesville Gazette about open carry. I have been openly carrying my FNP-40 on my hip at home and in my neighborhood for the past 2 years. I have been tempted many times to do so in town as well, and now plan to do so. I am aware of the various laws that limit where and when I can carry, and about transportation of a weapon. The article made mention that it is good policy to obtain a signed permission slip from retailers. I would like to learn more about how to go about doing this, and if there is a form for doing so.

    I am a lifetime member of the NRA; I posess a CCW permit from Utah; and as a result of the Gazette article, just became a member of Wisconsin Carry. I was not aware of others like me, until now, who wish to exercise our SA right through open carry. I can't tell you how happy this has made me. It is my belief that if enough law abiding, good citizens strapped a piece to our hip, and went out in the community, it would expedite the passage of concealed carry laws. However, I do not support giving up our open carry rights in order to get concealed carry in Wisconsin. I also favor concealed carry without a permit, but if that's where we have to start, then so be it!

    I would appreciate any help you can give me regarding my question above.

    I want to thank everyone for your thoughts and comments, they have been very helpful.
    Last edited by fdmuchow; 08-09-2010 at 08:29 PM.

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    permission slip?

    "The article made mention that it is good policy to obtain a signed permission slip from retailers. I would like to learn more about how to go about doing this, and if there is a form for doing so."



    Never ask permission! Ask forgiveness... That being said, as long as you avoid the 5 places you can't legally carry,
    unless there's a sign on the door banning carry, I NEVER ask. If they ask you to leave, you have to leave. (don't argue with them) There are even exceptions to the 5 places you can't carry, but regarding your specific question, you do not need advance permission from a retailer.
    I go into grocery stores, restaurants (that don't serve alcohol) gas stations, really almost everywhere I go. I've never asked permission and only have been asked to leave our local mall (which has an unposted policy)

  3. #3
    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
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    Permission?

    If you are talking about places that serve alcohol then good idea.

    Unless a sign is posted to the contrary, carry is allowed by default on private property as long as your presence is not otherwise unlawful.

  4. #4
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman's Avatar
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    The article made mention that it is good policy to obtain a signed permission slip from retailers. I would like to learn more about how to go about doing this, and if there is a form for doing so.
    That was a mis-statement.

    You do not need permission to carry in stores restaurants, etc.

    If you see a no-gun sign on the door, you shouldn't go in armed.

    If you do not see any signage to the contrary you may carry in the story. If you are in a store and store management asks you to leave, leave right away and then research the store policy when you get home.

    The only place you need to ask permission to carry first is a place that has a class b liquor license. There you do need permission and we have a permission slip "form" on our website. AGAIN, this form is ONLY for places that serve alcohol. Any other retail establishments, if there is no sign prohibiting carry, carry at will.

    http://www.wisconsincarry.org/pdf/ca...onsliprev5.pdf


    As to the logic of why you shouldn't "ask" permission.

    When you ask permission, you are putting a manager/store employee who probably has NO knowledge of the law in a tough position of authorizing you to do something they don't know they can.

    In those cases the non-knowing employee or manager will almost ALWAYS take the abundance of caution and just say no.

    If you just carry, you aren't asking the manager to make a decision and commit themselves to having ok'd your carrying.

    We know nothing bad happens from open-carry but a manager may have little or no experience. The last thing they would want is to have to think "what if" something does happen and there was an incident and the open-carrier says "Mr. Manager said I could carry here". Then the manager stuck his head out and put himself in a bad position. Don't ask permission. Its not fair to put a manager in that position.

    Do be a good ambassador and politely go about your business while you carry. No sign, carry on.

    In addition to not asking permission because it puts the manager in a tough situation, not asking permission and just going about your business gives people the opportunity to experience the non-event of open-carry first hand. Then in the future they have a positive experience to base their decisions about a carry policy on.
    Last edited by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman; 08-09-2010 at 04:36 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wisc. Stats.
    941.237 Carrying handgun where alcohol beverages
    may be sold and consumed.
    [ ... ]
    (2) Whoever intentionally goes armed with a handgun on any
    premises for which a Class “B” or “Class B” license or permit has
    been issued under ch. 125 is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.
    (3) Subsection (2) does not apply to any of the following:
    [ ... ]
    (g) The possession or use of a handgun on the premises if
    authorized for a specific event of limited duration by the owner or
    manager of the premises who is issued the Class “B” or “Class B”
    license or permit under ch. 125 for the premises.

  6. #6
    Regular Member grinner's Avatar
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    The 2A is my permission slip.

    I'm not saying that to be confrontational like, "they can take my gun from my cold dead fingers". I'm just saying that by default in Wisconsin we CAN carry. Requesting a permission slip implies that by default, we CAN'T carry.

    Another problem with permission slips is the default answer is "no". I talked with the local PD about where a festival boundary was, to know where I could carry, and they had a hard time drawing that line. The fact is, they don't know, so their default answer is very restrictive. Had I just carried there and been nice about it, it wouldn't have been an issue.

    In my opinion, we shouldn't make carrying an issue until it becomes an issue, and then it can be dealt with appropriately.

    But I'd be interested in hearing others' experiences with permission slips. Who knows, maybe they have a good purpose?

    EDIT: Wow, it seems we're all on the same page on this one!
    Last edited by grinner; 08-09-2010 at 04:47 PM. Reason: Adding info about other posts

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    It'll be a sad day when some poor OC shlub shows a cop his permission slip signed by the bartender. Or when the licensee denies that's his signature. Someone will just have to be the test case.
    Last edited by Doug Huffman; 08-09-2010 at 05:15 PM.

  8. #8
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
    It'll be a sad day when some poor OC shlub shows a cop his permission slip signed by the bartender. Or when the licensee denies that's his signature. Someone will just have to be the test case.
    Poor OC shlub?

    Someone who knows and exercises their rights will never be poor, and never a shlub.

    Considering JB Van Hollen thought it was an adequate device, (the permission slip) I guess I'll take his word for it.

    The other options is to not carry in a place that serves alcohol at all.
    www.wisconsincarry.org Wisconsin Carry, Inc. is not affiliated with opencarry.org or these web forums. Questions about discussion forum policy or forum moderation should be directed to the owners of opencarry.org not Wisconsin Carry, Inc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman View Post
    Poor OC shlub?

    Someone who knows and exercises their rights will never be poor, and never a shlub.

    Considering JB Van Hollen thought it was an adequate device, (the permission slip) I guess I'll take his word for it.

    The other options is to not carry in a place that serves alcohol at all.
    According to the statute, such permission is for special events. Is a normal evening at a bar considered a special event as the statute covers?
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
    941.237 Carrying handgun where alcohol beverages
    may be sold and consumed.
    [ ... ]
    (2) Whoever intentionally goes armed with a handgun on any
    premises for which a Class “B” or “Class B” license or permit has
    been issued under ch. 125 is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.
    (3) Subsection (2) does not apply to any of the following:
    [ ... ]
    (g) The possession or use of a handgun on the premises if
    authorized for a specific event of limited duration by the owner or
    manager of the premises who is issued the Class “B” or “Class B”
    license or permit under ch. 125 for the premises..
    Not "special" but a specific event of limited duration to obviate open ended permission slips.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
    Not "special" but a specific event of limited duration to obviate open ended permission slips.
    Correct, but in this case, "special" would qualify as a specific event. Mox/nix.

    To me, the statute appears to be worded to allow a bar owner to host a specific public event, such as a beer garden at a fair, and allow staff members to be armed. While it may allow a proprietor to extend this to customers, it just does not look to be written for that purpose.

    I would be surprised if such permission would legally extend to a proprietor allowing a customer to stop by armed for the "specific event" of stopping by each Friday evening for social hour.
    Last edited by wrightme; 08-09-2010 at 05:25 PM.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

  12. #12
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    According to the statute, such permission is for special events. Is a normal evening at a bar considered a special event as the statute covers?
    It doesn't say "special" event, it says "specific" event of limited duration.

    I'm not aware of a statutory definition of "specific" or "event".

    An attorney who's opinion I trust on the issue has shared that in the absence of a statutory definition of a word the courts generally go to the dictionary.

    I believe that according to a dictionary definition of "event" eating dinner is an event. I also believe eating dinner on June 26th from 5pm until 8pm is "specific" and a limited duration.

    Accurately, Doug has pointed out that there is no case-law to establish these definitions or a courts interpretation.

    Having said that, the statute does not even specify that permission must be in writing. Having it in writing is just an extra level of caution.

    If someone said "sure Nik, carry here anytime you want" that, I don't believe would constitute "specific" nor limited duration.

    Therefore, every time I go to have dinner in an establishment that serves alcohol I get permission for that time. I usually get it in writing as an abundance of caution.

    The WCI member who developed the permission slip was able to specifically ask JB Van Hollen if the scenario I used in my example above would satisfy the statute and he (JB Van Hollen) said it would.

    That still isn't a guarantee, but its good enough for me.
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  13. #13
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    To me, the statute appears to be worded to allow a bar owner to host a specific public event, such as a beer garden at a fair, and allow staff members to be armed. While it may allow a proprietor to extend this to customers, it just does not look to be written for that purpose.
    If the legislature had wanted to limit carry to employees they could have easily written that language into the statute and eliminated any confusion.

    In addition how about "Ducks Unlimited" banquets when a gun is there and raffled off while alcohol is consumed.
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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    The article was wrong about permission. You do NOT need permission to OC in a private business unless they have a class-b liquor license.

    Unless there is a sign posted on the door saying no-firearms, carry away. If they ask you to leave, then get the persons name, leave and then post it here what happened.
    Last edited by paul@paul-fisher.com; 08-09-2010 at 05:36 PM. Reason: Fixed typo.

  15. #15
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    permission slip?! you don't need no steenkin permission slip to come into my shop!

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    Looks like we're taking the long way arround the barn. Welcome aboard fdmuchow, good to have you with us.

  17. #17
    Regular Member littlewolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman View Post
    That was a mis-statement.

    You do not need permission to carry in stores restaurants, etc.

    If you see a no-gun sign on the door, you shouldn't go in armed.

    If you do not see any signage to the contrary you may carry in the story. If you are in a store and store management asks you to leave, leave right away and then research the store policy when you get home.

    The only place you need to ask permission to carry first is a place that has a class b liquor license. There you do need permission and we have a permission slip "form" on our website. AGAIN, this form is ONLY for places that serve alcohol. Any other retail establishments, if there is no sign prohibiting carry, carry at will.

    http://www.wisconsincarry.org/pdf/ca...onsliprev5.pdf


    As to the logic of why you shouldn't "ask" permission.

    When you ask permission, you are putting a manager/store employee who probably has NO knowledge of the law in a tough position of authorizing you to do something they don't know they can.

    In those cases the non-knowing employee or manager will almost ALWAYS take the abundance of caution and just say no.

    If you just carry, you aren't asking the manager to make a decision and commit themselves to having ok'd your carrying.

    We know nothing bad happens from open-carry but a manager may have little or no experience. The last thing they would want is to have to think "what if" something does happen and there was an incident and the open-carrier says "Mr. Manager said I could carry here". Then the manager stuck his head out and put himself in a bad position. Don't ask permission. Its not fair to put a manager in that position.

    Do be a good ambassador and politely go about your business while you carry. No sign, carry on.

    In addition to not asking permission because it puts the manager in a tough situation, not asking permission and just going about your business gives people the opportunity to experience the non-event of open-carry first hand. Then in the future they have a positive experience to base their decisions about a carry policy on.
    Heres one for you from Waupaca County ORD 9.17 Peace and Good Will

    B. No person shall go armed with a firearm in any privatly owned building ,open to the public,without the consent of the owneror owner's agent." Privately owned building ,open to the public" shall include ,but not limited to,taverns restaurants,or other public buildings of accommodation or amusement.

    that can be a lot of back and forth to the truck loading and unloading in one day of shopping!
    Owner Little Wolf Firearms , US ARMY RETIRED 101st Airborne & 84th DIV TRNG Small arms instructor.
    Remember , Gun Control is " USING BOTH HANDS!"

  18. #18
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlewolf View Post
    Heres one for you from Waupaca County ORD 9.17 Peace and Good Will

    B. No person shall go armed with a firearm in any privatly owned building ,open to the public,without the consent of the owneror owner's agent." Privately owned building ,open to the public" shall include ,but not limited to,taverns restaurants,or other public buildings of accommodation or amusement.

    that can be a lot of back and forth to the truck loading and unloading in one day of shopping!
    Pre-empted by state law. Local ordinance unenforceable
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    Nope. § 66.0409(4)(b) is "unenforceable"! § 66.0409(2) is anile and toothless.

    § 66.0409 Local regulation of firearms.
    [ ... ]
    (2) Except as provided in subs. (3) and (4), no political subdivision
    may enact an ordinance or adopt a resolution that regulates
    the sale, purchase, purchase delay, transfer, ownership, use, keeping,
    possession, bearing, transportation, licensing, permitting,
    registration or taxation of any firearm or part of a firearm, including
    ammunition and reloader components, unless the ordinance or
    resolution is the same as or similar to, and no more stringent than,
    a state statute.
    [ ... ]
    (4) (a) Nothing in this section prohibits a political subdivision
    from continuing to enforce an ordinance or resolution that is in
    effect on November 18, 1995 ...
    (b) If a political subdivision has in effect on November 17,
    1995, an ordinance or resolution that regulates the sale, purchase,
    transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, transportation,
    licensing, permitting, registration or taxation of any firearm
    or part of a firearm, including ammunition and reloader components,
    and the ordinance or resolution is not the same as or similar
    to a state statute, the ordinance or resolution shall have no legal
    effect and the political subdivision may not enforce the ordinance
    or resolution on or after November 18, 1995.

  20. #20
    Regular Member littlewolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman View Post
    Pre-empted by state law. Local ordinance unenforceable
    Thats what I thought until I saw the date it was revised 7/20/ 2010 . Why would'nt they just repeal it or whatever and conform to state law ? I guess I'l have to drop the Co. Sup. a line.
    Owner Little Wolf Firearms , US ARMY RETIRED 101st Airborne & 84th DIV TRNG Small arms instructor.
    Remember , Gun Control is " USING BOTH HANDS!"

  21. #21
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlewolf View Post
    Thats what I thought until I saw the date it was revised 7/20/ 2010 . Why would'nt they just repeal it or whatever and conform to state law ? I guess I'l have to drop the Co. Sup. a line.
    As Doug is implying, the key is they SHOULDN'T enforce it and in the end they will loose. However, it could you time, money and inconvenience. So, yes, work on it with your elected officials, talk to the LEOs and let them know it if unenforceable.

    AN example is Elkhorn. They have a law on the books that is unenforceable. They are working on changing it but I haven't OC'ed in Elkhorn yet.

  22. #22
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman's Avatar
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    Thats what I thought until I saw the date it was revised 7/20/ 2010 . Why would'nt they just repeal it or whatever and conform to state law ?
    Perhaps even though they can't enforce it NOW they are hoping the state legislature overturns the pre-emption law and instantly all these ordinances that are already on the books become enforceable again.

    The preemption law says they can't enforce those ordinances, doesn't say they can't have them on the books and must repeal them.

    This is why its important to get these local ordinances off the books. First, they confuse people including, (in the past) the police. Second, if preemption goes away they are valid instantly.
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  23. #23
    Regular Member littlewolf's Avatar
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    I sent an email off to the county board chairman and will let you know what they will do or not do.
    Owner Little Wolf Firearms , US ARMY RETIRED 101st Airborne & 84th DIV TRNG Small arms instructor.
    Remember , Gun Control is " USING BOTH HANDS!"

  24. #24
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlewolf View Post
    I sent an email off to the county board chairman and will let you know what they will do or not do.
    The angle I would take with them is that it would be a good idea to get the ordinance off the books lest an officer not realize it was preempted and try to enforce it.

    Doing so would subject the municipality and the officer to legal action for an unlawful arrest.
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  25. #25
    Regular Member fdmuchow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny amish View Post
    Looks like we're taking the long way arround the barn. Welcome aboard fdmuchow, good to have you with us.
    Thanks, I am honored to be with you folks. I hope to meet some of you in Delavan on Sunday. Good Lord willin, and the crik don't rise, I plan to join your gathering at Starbucks, not to mention that I am a Starbucks coffee adict.

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