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Thread: CC tacoma general

  1. #1
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    CC tacoma general

    I was greeted today when taking a friend to the ER with a metal detector. i said, "I have a weapon, do you have a lock box or designated person to hold it?"

    "No." Was the what he said in an irritated voice.

    I said, "According to the law, you need to provide one of the two."

    The security guard responded in a very rude condensing tone, "uh, no we don't."

    Instead of further prolonging my friends pain, i take my baby to the truck disasemble it and bring the barrel only. Come back and tell him i only have the barrel, he wands me for ammo, then let's me go...

    where am i wrong?

  2. #2
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Why do you think they have to provide a lockbox?

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    Regular Member j2l3's Avatar
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    I believe you were wrong in that the law requires the courts to provide those things. Not hospitals.

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    Regular Member Bob Warden's Avatar
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    Tacoma General is a private business and has no obligation to allow guns or babysit guns. 2nd Amendment applies only to government entities.
    Meet the new boss; same as the old boss. -The Who

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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Well if a cops don't know the laws and keep harassing us, what makes you think some dumb security guard will know the laws? "I don't get paid to read. I just know how to use this fancy magic wand." maybe.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

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    And roger... i thought (my mistake) the ER made it public, if you are unconscious you don't have much choice on what ER they send you to.

    As well no RCW code was posted, just a sign inside the bulding posted.

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    Regular Member j2l3's Avatar
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    They don't post an RCW because there isn't one that applies.

    Private property, they make the rules.

    You are right, if you are hurt, you don't often get to choose what ER to go to. However, you weren't the one that was hurt, you need to comply with their rules if you want to remain with your friend.
    Last edited by j2l3; 08-09-2010 at 06:50 PM.

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    Regular Member j2l3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrewster421 View Post
    Well if a cops don't know the laws and keep harassing us, what makes you think some dumb security guard will know the laws? "I don't get paid to read. I just know how to use this fancy magic wand." maybe.

    Nice.... especially since the security officer was correct.

    You paint with a broad brush. "Some" security officers are goofs who deserve your comments.

    MOST do not.
    Last edited by j2l3; 08-09-2010 at 06:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by j2l3 View Post
    They don't post an RCW because there isn't one that applies.

    Private property, they make the rules.

    You are right, if you are hurt, you don't often get to shoose what ER to go to. However, you weren't the one that was hurt, you need to comply with their rules if you want to remain with your friend.
    Agreed, I just so happen to know a Tacoma Mall guard that know his ****, actually he is the guy that turned me on to this sight...

    Thank you for the insight on the hospital as well some times i need it broken down barney style.

  10. #10
    Regular Member j2l3's Avatar
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    Don't we all...

    Welcome to the board! Lots of good people and even more good information here.
    Last edited by j2l3; 08-09-2010 at 06:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Warden View Post
    Tacoma General is a private business and has no obligation to allow guns or babysit guns. 2nd Amendment applies only to government entities.
    I'm asking this because I don't know -

    While Tacoma General is part of Multi-Care, are they supported by a public tax? Many hospitals, even though nominally "private" are supported by property taxes (e.g., Steven's Hospital in Edmonds). For pretty much every other entity, the acceptance of public funds requires them to meet public laws.

    If Tacoma General accepts tax support, would this theory apply? If so, wouldn't they fall under the RCWs?

    When my son was born at Tacoma General, I cc'd everyday (except his birthday - had to change and go in the OR for that) with no problems.

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    The hospital is a private, non government organization. They can refuse service at their discretion. I think their policies are stupid, but I can't do anything about it, except not go there.

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    while I dont necessarily agree with the rules perhaps this perspective will shed some light on how far reaching the issue of guns in hospitals really is.

    Even at an army/navy hospital in the middle of Fallujah during the reinvasion of this Iraqi city there was a NO WEAPONS policy. Yes you read that right IN THE MIDDLE OF A WAR ZONE there is still not a firearm allowed in a hospital.

    Reasoning behind this? I am not sure.

    Not trying to say it is right or wrong but if Marines and Soldiers cant even have weapons in a forward located medevac hospital or Shock Trauma Platoon hospital then why would it makes sense for hospitals here to allow them in the "safety and peace" of everyday America?

    Again I am not condoning this line of thinking, just pointing out that this is possibly the root of all evil, at least when it comes to the firearms and hospitals thing.....

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Slight tangent here:

    SO if just about all hospitals/ERs ban guns, just what do they do if you show up there in the back of an ambulance, conscious or not, and packing? Make the EMTs hold it? Throw it in with the biohazard?
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Regular Member gsx1138's Avatar
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    I used to work at TG and I seem to remember that the reason they maintain their not for profit status is to get State grant money. I know there are staff the cc but it is at the risk of losing their job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Slight tangent here:

    SO if just about all hospitals/ERs ban guns, just what do they do if you show up there in the back of an ambulance, conscious or not, and packing? Make the EMTs hold it? Throw it in with the biohazard?
    If I remember correctly from my days at Saddleback Hospital ER it is a call security have them confiscate it and tag it and wait for police to arrive and obtain/question the individual.

    Then again that was in the "state of Mexico" where guns are not allowed apparently and people must throw rocks at each other. (unless they are GB's and then it is ok for them to do whatever...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by devildoc5 View Post
    while I dont necessarily agree with the rules perhaps this perspective will shed some light on how far reaching the issue of guns in hospitals really is.

    Even at an army/navy hospital in the middle of Fallujah during the reinvasion of this Iraqi city there was a NO WEAPONS policy. Yes you read that right IN THE MIDDLE OF A WAR ZONE there is still not a firearm allowed in a hospital.

    Reasoning behind this? I am not sure.

    Not trying to say it is right or wrong but if Marines and Soldiers cant even have weapons in a forward located medevac hospital or Shock Trauma Platoon hospital then why would it makes sense for hospitals here to allow them in the "safety and peace" of everyday America?

    Again I am not condoning this line of thinking, just pointing out that this is possibly the root of all evil, at least when it comes to the firearms and hospitals thing.....
    Not sure about over there, but I'm pretty sure a hospital here can't turn away a police officer on official duty. Seems pretty whack that their laws over there don't override private business policies.

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    well I know that here a LEO doing there job can pretty much carry anywhere they want (except past the TSA checkpoints, but that is another story altogether).

    I think one of the main reasons for the rule over there is because of the hospital also treating enemy combatants who, if they did obtain a weapon in a hospital where no one is armed, it could be a REALLY REALLY big problem.

    Although I am not too sure about that.

    As it relates to stateside I know that LEO can enter a hospital armed, I have seen it before.

    I have also seen where LEO are not allowed to ride in the back of an ambulance to escort a patient without relinquishing their sidearm though....(again another story for another time)

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Slight tangent here:

    SO if just about all hospitals/ERs ban guns, just what do they do if you show up there in the back of an ambulance, conscious or not, and packing? Make the EMTs hold it? Throw it in with the biohazard?
    This was on another thread not to long ago by someone who WAS in an accident and was carrying. I believe it was here in Washington, but not sure. The LEO took his gun for safe keeping (he was conscious) , and he was able to retrieve it after he got out of the hospital and was able to drive to go get it. I seem to remember that either he was in Marysville or had to go there to retrieve his gun. So from that, I would assume that law enforcement stores it for you until you are able to retrieve it. This thread was somewhere around May or June of this year; I was new to the forum and I asked this same question since I have been involved in a couple of accidents(not my fault) in the last 4 years.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by devildoc5 View Post
    well I know that here a LEO doing there job can pretty much carry anywhere they want (except past the TSA checkpoints, but that is another story altogether).

    I think one of the main reasons for the rule over there is because of the hospital also treating enemy combatants who, if they did obtain a weapon in a hospital where no one is armed, it could be a REALLY REALLY big problem.

    Although I am not too sure about that.

    As it relates to stateside I know that LEO can enter a hospital armed, I have seen it before.

    I have also seen where LEO are not allowed to ride in the back of an ambulance to escort a patient without relinquishing their sidearm though....(again another story for another time)
    Makes sense. The escorting thing is probably a safety issue. Officers are also not allowed to be armed inside of a place of incarceration due to safety reasons. I can't remember the site, but I remember reading the guidelines that had to be followed for officers to carry beyond the TSA checkpoint. I think they needed permission from their Chief or Sheriff, and had to meet a few other requirements. I'll see if I can find it, because now I'm curious again.

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    Ah, that didn't take long. Here it is

    http://www.tsa.gov/lawenforcement/pr...with_guns.shtm

    The Office of Law Enforcement/Federal Air Marshal Service maintains oversight of the Law Enforcement Officers Flying Armed training program. This training program is mandatory for all Law Enforcement Officers flying armed under Code of Federal Regulation CFR 1544.219 Carriage of Accessible Weapons.

    The training material for this program is comprised of a structured lesson plan, slide presentation, FAQ's, and applicable codes of federal regulation. This material is provided to other federal, state, and local law enforcement agencies and departments to properly instruct their officers on the subject of flying on board commercial aircraft while armed. The material covered includes protocols in the handling of prohibited items, prisoner transport and dealing with an act of criminal violence aboard an aircraft.

    The program training material may be obtained by emailing the Office of Law Enforcement/Federal Air Marshal Service, Office of Training and Workforce Programs, Training Policy and Development Division, Operations Branch at LEOFA@dhs.gov with the following information:

    * Full Name
    * Agency Name
    * Agency Address & Number
    * Supervisor Name & Number

    For time sensitive requests please call 1-703-487-3100 between the core business hours of 9:00am to 5:00 pm Eastern. To ensure uniform and consistent instruction of the program, the training material will only be disseminated to the training division of the requesting agency.

    On July 15, 2009 the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) will no longer accept the original letter of authority for the purpose of flying while armed. State, Local, and Territorial LEOs flying armed must submit a National Law Enforcement Telecommunications System (NLETS) message prior to travel. The NLETS message sent by the employing agency will replace the current original letter of authority, signed by the chief or agency head, required under 49 CFR 1544.219. Once the NLETS message is received by TSA, a return NLETS message will be sent to the employing agency with an eight character Unique Alphanumeric Identifier for verification at the airport on the day of travel. This change is being implemented to provide a more secure means of confirming the identity of LEOs, since the Original Letter of Authority can be counterfeited. The current procedures for federal LEOs flying armed remains unchanged.

    Failure to use the NLETS message in lieu of the Original Letter of Authority (Commonly referred to as the “Chief’s Letter”) will result in denial to the sterile area for failure to comply with the “Letter of Authority” requirement delineated in 49 CFR 1544.219.

    A general overview of the program can also be found on the FBI's Law Enforcement Online system which is only available to persons duly employed by a law enforcement, criminal justice, or public safety agency. To request access to the FBI's Law Enforcement Online system, please contact their program office at (888) 334-4536 or e-mail membership@leo.gov.

    For general questions or guidance related to Law Enforcement Officers flying armed, please contact the Office of Law Enforcement/Federal Air Marshal Service, Liaison Division. Their e-mail address is: LEOFA@dhs.gov.

    The links on this web page should only be used by federal, state, and local law enforcement agencies and departments who are seeking information on the subject of flying on board commercial aircraft while armed. Please do not submit inquiries about employment opportunities to the above e-mail addresses.

  22. #22
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    actually you are talking about two different things here. The one you posted was in regards to LEO's flying armed on the plane. Previously we had been discussing armed LEO's going to the boarding gates with weapons, which are two different things.

    I believe however you are right about needing not only authorization from their sheriff or COP but also needing the TSA's HMFIC at that airport's authorization as well.

    In regards to the flying armed for LEO's that is a training course that gives them an extra endorsement on their badger card that allows them to fly armed as long as they have an authorization letter or call that NLETS number you posted previously.

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    Military and civilian hospitals

    The reason for no weapons in a military hospital in the middle of a war zone - the fighting is done, the medical staff do not need a medicated and/or emotionally distraunt soldier with a weapon going nuts to either do themselves in or take it out on the world around them. Focus in this situation is to get you patched up not make more unnecessary holes.

    Hospitals around in Washington is a mix of private (for profit) and public hospital that are partially supported by taxes.
    http://awphd.org/Members/members_map.aspx

    Hospitals have a no weapons policy and trespass can be issued so that is how they would get you. You would be asked to leave and if refused then you will be talking to some local PD folks. Not worth the hassle.

    FYI:
    Harborview also has a metal detector - I believe they use it during the evening hours and weekends when you are accessing the Emergency Room.

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    oldkim thanks for the clarification on that, I was a corpsman for almost 6 years and did not fully understand the reasoning.... I figured it had to be something like that. I was kinda using that as a compare and contrast sort of thingiemajigerbobdeal....

  25. #25
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    Hospitals have a no weapons policy and trespass can be issued so that is how they would get you. You would be asked to leave and if refused then you will be talking to some local PD folks. Not worth the hassle.
    +1

    Back in 2000 Washington State L&I wanted hospitals & clinics to find a way to reduce the number of assaults to hospital personal. One of those ways was to not have weapons in the facility. Hospitals decided to have GFZ's and WFZ's in order to reduce the number of assaults and also to reduce the amount of their insurance.... I'll find that article and repost it.

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