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Thread: Yes, another quick question

  1. #1
    Regular Member Chrome coytoe's Avatar
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    Yes, another quick question

    Ok, I will make it as brief as possible.

    I am getting married in 31 days. For a pre wedding present, I bought my WTB a pistol. Now, it is registered in my name, because I wanted it to be a surprise. That was about 45 days ago. Now, she surprised me and has not only decided to support me OCing, but she wants to start OCing herself! My question is can she legally OC a pistol registered in my name, or does it have to be registered in hers first? We are going to register it in her name. She can legal purchase and own a pistol, so in no way was it a straw purchase. Just a thoughtful man buying his soon to be a way to protect herself. And if it does need to be registered first, how would we go about transferring ownership? As always, I appreciate the help those wiser than me in the ways of firearms can offer.

    By the way, neither of us have our CPL's (yet)
    Last edited by Chrome coytoe; 08-10-2010 at 08:57 PM. Reason: adding info

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    Only if she has a CPL. You should review the registration law, as you may have to have a CPL as well. My memory is a little fuzzy because I don't ever loan out my guns.

  3. #3
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    IANAL

    Michigan - No she can not borrow your pistol (its in your name) unless she has a CPL. All you have to do to put it in her name is go up to you local police department (if the city/village/township you live in doesn't have one go to county) and transfer it into her name, "sell it to her", you need the serial number, make, model, length, and mag cap. Am I missing anything guys

    Oh IANAL
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
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    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
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  4. #4
    Regular Member Chrome coytoe's Avatar
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    I thought that was the answer, but it never hurts to speak to those wiser than yourself. We want to register it to her, we have both been busy with wedding crap to think about it. Looks like we have a goal to accomplish this week.

  5. #5
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Cities are different. Also different police departments have different time spans in which they issue the purchase permit. I live in Hazel Park, they have you fill out the app first and have it done before you finish the test , I guess if you fail the test they destroy or void it, I am not sure. However in Clawson they will have it ready for you before lunch the next business day. I have herd of other cities that take three days though.

    Don't worry about the test if you fail it you are safer to not be around a firearm!

    Oh also I don't think the 3 day think is legal, I am sure someone will be around eventually to list it, I really don't feel like searching the MCLs for it. But maybe I will I am full of surprises.
    Last edited by eastmeyers; 08-10-2010 at 09:54 PM.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
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  6. #6
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    1. Go get purchase permit

    2. bring PP home

    3. fill out PP

    4. Sign and get it notarized. (your bank likely can do this for you)

    5. return MSP and Local Agency copies to the location you picked up PP from. (you can also mail it)

    6. Have WTB carry her copy of PP for 30 days whenever she is OCing.

    7. Carry on safely!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  7. #7
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    1. Go get purchase permit

    2. bring PP home

    3. fill out PP

    4. Sign and get it notarized. (your bank likely can do this for you)

    5. return MSP and Local Agency copies to the location you picked up PP from. (you can also mail it)

    6. Have WTB carry her copy of PP for 30 days whenever she is OCing.

    7. Carry on safely!
    Or you can do this all in one shot at the police department, just go together, this is what I do EVERY TIME I sell a firearm to someone with out a CPL. They usually notarize it their, and since the purchaser is a resident many cities will waive any fees. This has been the case every time I have done it. Of course she will still need to carry the PP for 30days while OCing.
    Last edited by eastmeyers; 08-10-2010 at 10:04 PM.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

  8. #8
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    Oh also I don't think the 3 day think is legal, I am sure someone will be around eventually to list it, I really don't feel like searching the MCLs for it. But maybe I will I am full of surprises.
    It isn't. "Due speed and diligence" is required by law when it comes to PD's issuing permits, and since the law doesn't specify any waiting periods or other roadblocks, they need to be issued immediately. If they won't fork them over right there on the spot, allowing you to pay them nothing and get it notarized where you please, they are in violation of the law. The only exception would be if they are REALLY busy, and legitimately don't have time that day. And if they claimed that, I'd be FOIAing the activities of the day, making sure it was a rare occurrence, otherwise, off to the city council, and failing their swift actions, the AG's office.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  9. #9
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Can you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE list that MCL? This way I can email the Clawson city attorney and let them know that even though I personally am not offended that they have a 8-24 hour turn around period (most likely because I have a CPL) for PP, that they are still in violation and need to correct their actions. I actually remembered this being discussed here before, and the first time I went with a purchaser their I said they were in violation of the law, they assured me they were not. I immediately demanded to speak with the chief of police, and they said he was not in, they said that if I had a law to list they would look it up then and there and discuss it with me. I said never mind. I had it recorded too, but I deleted it not even thinking about it till now . Dope on me!~
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

  10. #10
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-422

    (3) The commissioner or chief of police of a city, township, or village police department that issues licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols, or his or her duly authorized deputy, or the sheriff or his or her duly authorized deputy, in the parts of a county not included within a city, township, or village having an organized police department, in discharging the duty to issue licenses shall with due speed and diligence issue licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols to qualified applicants residing within the city, village, township, or county, as applicable unless he or she has probable cause to believe that the applicant would be a threat to himself or herself or to other individuals, or would commit an offense with the pistol that would violate a law of this or another state or of the United States.

  11. #11
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    What is the legal deffination of "due speed and diligence"?
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

  12. #12
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Please see the attached "cliff notes".

  13. #13
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    The last two people I saw take this test the lady at the window cicled #9 and said to skip it.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

  14. #14
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    The last two people I saw take this test the lady at the window cicled #9 and said to skip it.
    That would be correct. I had a friend that I put this together for, complete with answers in BOLD.

  15. #15
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    That would be correct. I had a friend that I put this together for, complete with answers in BOLD.
    No offense I disagree with the "study guide", you do not need to get them all right to pass, and if you don't pass you are not the type of person that is going to be safe around firearms. On the other hand their shouldn't be a test to get your "rights".
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

  16. #16
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    What is the legal deffination of "due speed and diligence"?
    I am not sure how this would legally be interpreted, as in a required within a specific time frame. Webster says:

    Due - satisfying or capable of satisfying a need, obligation, or duty.
    Speed - the act or state of moving swiftly.
    Diligence - the attention and care legally expected or required of a person (as a party to a contract).

    I guess this is just one more area that needs to be changed within the MI Laws, although it would probably be better to just abolish the mandatory Pistol Purchase Permit and have an optional one to cover other needs.

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    Regular Member Agent1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrome coytoe View Post
    Ok, I will make it as brief as possible.
    She can legal purchase and own a pistol, so in no way was it a straw purchase.
    By the way, neither of us have our CPL's (yet)
    If she is under 21, the ATF (or what ever they call them selves now) would disagree.
    Once upon a time I was a FFL holder and Sporting Goods store owner. I had an ATF agent tell me that I could not sell my personal pistol to my 19 year old brother until 1 year after I purchased it. I have found no laws to support that but the ATF run on how they interpret the law this week. Be careful. Good luck!
    ‎"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands; one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all."

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    Regular Member Chrome coytoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent1 View Post
    If she is under 21, the ATF (or what ever they call them selves now) would disagree.
    Once upon a time I was a FFL holder and Sporting Goods store owner. I had an ATF agent tell me that I could not sell my personal pistol to my 19 year old brother until 1 year after I purchased it. I have found no laws to support that but the ATF run on how they interpret the law this week. Be careful. Good luck!
    Nope, she is 23 and all good and legal. Its just a matter of getting our butts to the office to get the PP.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Agent1's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrome coytoe View Post
    Nope, she is 23 and all good and legal. Its just a matter of getting our butts to the office to get the PP.
    ‎"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands; one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all."

  20. #20
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent1 View Post
    If she is under 21, the ATF (or what ever they call them selves now) would disagree.
    Once upon a time I was a FFL holder and Sporting Goods store owner. I had an ATF agent tell me that I could not sell my personal pistol to my 19 year old brother until 1 year after I purchased it. I have found no laws to support that but the ATF run on how they interpret the law this week. Be careful. Good luck!
    (this is in no offense to you agent1)

    LEOs are not lawyers! This is BS! If you buy a pistol legally your good, than sell it legally your good. A "straw" purchase is when you sell a pistol to someone who can't legally posses one. I will go back to the Clawson thing... My girlfriend is 18 (yes eighteen) she made an agreement to purchase a pistol from a man in the Army that was leaving that day. We went to the Clawson police department, they said PP can be picked up next morning (this issue has already been addressed within this thread). I said she needed it that day, the lady at the front desk asked if I had a CPL motioning at my pistol, than handed me a RI 60 and said, you can buy it today, come in tomorrow and sell it to her than. This is what we did, perfectly legal!
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

  21. #21
    Regular Member Agent1's Avatar
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    Yes, and no offense taken.

    Just for the record, the town cheif at the time was a good dude. He disagreed with the ATF inspector and gave my little brother the PP that same day.

    It was a nice Kimber CDP by the way.

    I would love to see an offical definition of "Straw" purchase. I was always under the impression that it was to prevent someone who could not buy a firearm otherwise. The ATF guy says it is also to prevent those who won't fill out 4473 forms otherwise. (The Montana thing was going on at the time).
    Last edited by Agent1; 08-12-2010 at 07:58 AM.
    ‎"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands; one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all."

  22. #22
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Well my CPL instructor (an Oakland County Deputy) and his wife (an ATF special agent), explained it to me like this. Say I am a felon (I AM NOT) and my wife isn't, I want a firearm, obviously I can't buy one, I have her buy it for me. This is the scenario they offered to me. Now I know they are LEOs and not lawyers, just saying.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

  23. #23
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Under United States federal gun laws, a "straw purchase" is defined as any purchase from a Federal Firearms Licensee dealer where the buyer conducting the transaction is acting as a "proxy" for another person. The law does not distinguish between someone who is purchasing on behalf of a person who legally cannot purchase or possess a firearm, and one who is not. In the United States, straw purchases are a felony violation of the 1968 Gun Control Act of for both the straw purchaser (who can also be charged with lying Form 4473) and the person for whom the person bought the firearm. Form 4473 requires one to affirm “I am the buyer of this firearm” and the purchaser must answer honestly "yes" or "no". HOWEVER, the purchase of a firearm as a "bona fide gift" for someone who can legally own such a firearm is permitted (it does not matter whether they can purchase or not... possession is the key.

    From Pg 165 of the ATF's Federal Firearm Law

    15. STRAW PURCHASES
    Questions have arisen concerning the
    lawfulness of firearms purchases from
    licensees by persons who use a "straw
    purchaser" (another person) to acquire
    the firearms. Specifically, the actual
    buyer uses the straw purchaser to execute
    the Form 4473 purporting to show
    that the straw purchaser is the actual
    purchaser of the firearm.

    In some instances,
    a straw purchaser is used because
    the actual purchaser is prohibited
    from acquiring the firearm. That is to
    say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is
    within one of the other prohibited categories
    of persons who may not lawfully
    acquire firearms or is a resident of a
    State other than that in which the licensee's
    business premises is located.
    Because of his or her disability, the person
    uses a straw purchaser who is not
    prohibited from purchasing a firearm
    from the licensee.

    In both instances, the straw purchaser
    violates Federal law by making
    false statements on Form 4473 to the
    licensee with respect to the identity of
    the actual purchaser of the firearm, as
    well as the actual purchaser's residence
    address and date of birth. The actual
    purchaser who utilized the straw purchaser
    to acquire a firearm has unlawfully
    aided and abetted or caused the
    making of the false statements. The
    licensee selling the firearm under these
    circumstances also violates Federal law
    if the licensee is aware of the false
    statements on the form. It is immaterial
    that the actual purchaser and the straw
    purchaser are residents of the State in
    which the licensee's business premises
    is located, are not prohibited from receiving
    or possessing firearms, and
    could have lawfully purchased firearms
    from the licensee.

    An example of an illegal straw purchase
    is as follows: Mr. Smith asks Mr.
    Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr.
    Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the
    money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills
    out Form 4473, he violates the law by
    falsely stating that he is the actual buyer
    of the firearm. Mr. Smith also violates
    the law because he has unlawfully aided
    and abetted or caused the making of
    false statements on the form.

    Where a person purchases a firearm
    with the intent of making a gift of the
    firearm to another person, the person
    making the purchase is indeed the true
    purchaser. There is no straw purchaser
    in these instances. In the above example,
    if Mr. Jones had bought a firearm
    with his own money to give to Mr. Smith
    as a birthday present, Mr. Jones could
    lawfully have completed Form 4473.
    The use of gift certificates would also
    not fall within the category of straw purchases.
    The person redeeming the gift
    certificate would be the actual purchaser
    of the firearm and would be properly
    reflected as such in the dealer's records.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 08-12-2010 at 02:03 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    I had it recorded too, but I deleted it not even thinking about it till now . Dope on me!~
    It would be extremely easy to conduct an extensive undercover investigation on the matter, utilizing wired up volunteer residents of cities known or believed to be in violation of the due speed and diligence rule. Scores of Michigan PD's don't know or care about it.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  25. #25
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    It would be extremely easy to conduct an extensive undercover investigation on the matter, utilizing wired up volunteer residents of cities known or believed to be in violation of the due speed and diligence rule. Scores of Michigan PD's don't know or care about it.
    This is true! Clawson is kinda off putting in the time perspective but is cool that they notarize for free, and their is NO charges for any of it!
    Hazel Park is cool because it takes about 1.2 seconds to get said PP but they charge for something I don't remember what, if it was for the PP or for processing or for the notarizing or what, but I had to pay for something once upon a time... Whatever HPPD gets an A on firearms from me.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

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