• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Yes, another quick question

Agent1

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Messages
119
Location
The Thumb MI
Yes, and no offense taken.

Just for the record, the town cheif at the time was a good dude. He disagreed with the ATF inspector and gave my little brother the PP that same day. :lol:

It was a nice Kimber CDP by the way.:(

I would love to see an offical definition of "Straw" purchase. I was always under the impression that it was to prevent someone who could not buy a firearm otherwise. The ATF guy says it is also to prevent those who won't fill out 4473 forms otherwise. (The Montana thing was going on at the time).:eek:
 
Last edited:

eastmeyers

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2008
Messages
1,363
Location
Hazel Park, Michigan, USA
Well my CPL instructor (an Oakland County Deputy) and his wife (an ATF special agent), explained it to me like this. Say I am a felon (I AM NOT) and my wife isn't, I want a firearm, obviously I can't buy one, I have her buy it for me. This is the scenario they offered to me. Now I know they are LEOs and not lawyers, just saying.
:cool:
 

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
Under United States federal gun laws, a "straw purchase" is defined as any purchase from a Federal Firearms Licensee dealer where the buyer conducting the transaction is acting as a "proxy" for another person. The law does not distinguish between someone who is purchasing on behalf of a person who legally cannot purchase or possess a firearm, and one who is not. In the United States, straw purchases are a felony violation of the 1968 Gun Control Act of for both the straw purchaser (who can also be charged with lying Form 4473) and the person for whom the person bought the firearm. Form 4473 requires one to affirm “I am the buyer of this firearm” and the purchaser must answer honestly "yes" or "no". HOWEVER, the purchase of a firearm as a "bona fide gift" for someone who can legally own such a firearm is permitted (it does not matter whether they can purchase or not... possession is the key.

From Pg 165 of the ATF's Federal Firearm Law

15. STRAW PURCHASES
Questions have arisen concerning the
lawfulness of firearms purchases from
licensees by persons who use a "straw
purchaser" (another person) to acquire
the firearms. Specifically, the actual
buyer uses the straw purchaser to execute
the Form 4473 purporting to show
that the straw purchaser is the actual
purchaser of the firearm.

In some instances,
a straw purchaser is used because
the actual purchaser is prohibited
from acquiring the firearm. That is to
say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is
within one of the other prohibited categories
of persons who may not lawfully
acquire firearms or is a resident of a
State other than that in which the licensee's
business premises is located.
Because of his or her disability, the person
uses a straw purchaser who is not
prohibited from purchasing a firearm
from the licensee.

In both instances, the straw purchaser
violates Federal law by making
false statements on Form 4473 to the
licensee with respect to the identity of
the actual purchaser of the firearm, as
well as the actual purchaser's residence
address and date of birth. The actual
purchaser who utilized the straw purchaser
to acquire a firearm has unlawfully
aided and abetted or caused the
making of the false statements. The
licensee selling the firearm under these
circumstances also violates Federal law
if the licensee is aware of the false
statements on the form. It is immaterial
that the actual purchaser and the straw
purchaser are residents of the State in
which the licensee's business premises
is located, are not prohibited from receiving
or possessing firearms, and
could have lawfully purchased firearms
from the licensee.

An example of an illegal straw purchase
is as follows: Mr. Smith asks Mr.
Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr.
Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the
money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills
out Form 4473, he violates the law by
falsely stating that he is the actual buyer
of the firearm. Mr. Smith also violates
the law because he has unlawfully aided
and abetted or caused the making of
false statements on the form.

Where a person purchases a firearm
with the intent of making a gift of the
firearm to another person, the person
making the purchase is indeed the true
purchaser. There is no straw purchaser
in these instances. In the above example,
if Mr. Jones had bought a firearm
with his own money to give to Mr. Smith
as a birthday present, Mr. Jones could
lawfully have completed Form 4473.
The use of gift certificates would also
not fall within the category of straw purchases.
The person redeeming the gift
certificate would be the actual purchaser
of the firearm and would be properly
reflected as such in the dealer's records.
 
Last edited:

Michigander

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,818
Location
Mulligan's Valley
I had it recorded too, but I deleted it not even thinking about it till now :banghead:. Dope on me!~

It would be extremely easy to conduct an extensive undercover investigation on the matter, utilizing wired up volunteer residents of cities known or believed to be in violation of the due speed and diligence rule. Scores of Michigan PD's don't know or care about it.
 

eastmeyers

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2008
Messages
1,363
Location
Hazel Park, Michigan, USA
It would be extremely easy to conduct an extensive undercover investigation on the matter, utilizing wired up volunteer residents of cities known or believed to be in violation of the due speed and diligence rule. Scores of Michigan PD's don't know or care about it.

This is true! Clawson is kinda off putting in the time perspective but is cool that they notarize for free, and their is NO charges for any of it!
Hazel Park is cool because it takes about 1.2 seconds to get said PP but they charge for something I don't remember what, if it was for the PP or for processing or for the notarizing or what, but I had to pay for something once upon a time... Whatever HPPD gets an A on firearms from me.
 

Michigander

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,818
Location
Mulligan's Valley
Hazel Park is cool because it takes about 1.2 seconds to get said PP but they charge for something I don't remember what,

They simply don't have a right to charge for anything, other than voluntarily having them notarize it. Our favorite little gem of a law, MCL123.1102 is the reason for this.

Michigan has NO law to enable them to charge a fee, but it does require due speed and diligence with issuing permits, as well as prohibiting gun rules and regulations more strict than state law.

ANY mandatory fee or waiting period should be met with a polite legal lesson, failing that city council complaints, and failing that AG's office complaints or law suits.
 
Last edited:

eastmeyers

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2008
Messages
1,363
Location
Hazel Park, Michigan, USA
They simply don't have a right to charge for anything, other than voluntarily having them notarize it.

Don't quote me, I have only personally gotten one PP, this was before getting my CPL in the mail, it was a couple of years ago. I believe it was between $2-$5 notary fee, they said I could take it somewhere else but I didn't see the point.
 
Top