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Thread: Yakima Police Department Training for Open Carry

  1. #1
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Yakima Police Department Training for Open Carry

    I was sent a training memo from the recent training of YPD (Yakima Police Department) Officers on Open Carry and well do not be surprised on how short it is.

    I am also aware Officers are somewhat frustrated that MWAG calls some in and there is nothing illegal is occurring.

    I have heard here lately Officers asking Dispatch to be more detailed when dispatching to these MWAG as to what was observed,

    Just last week a perpetrator (gang member) called in a MWAG and when it was investigated the Manager was legally armed in his holster was being threatened by this gang member and when he saw the gun, OFF HE WENT and CALLED 911, poor baby.

    So there is some positive coming from this as before they would just swarm on any and all MWAG and numerous were legal.

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    "illegal display"

    So, I'm having trouble connecting the dots here, relative to the decision making....is the information in this "training bulletin" leaning toward justification for a Terry Stop? It sets 6 conditions for "illegal display"....I seem to meet all these threshold levels when I am on the corner of 56th and South Tacoma Way, OC' with my 1911 on my hip and its 8:30AM or 8:30 PM?(how big is big?)...maybe number 7 should be "unless a Starbucks in hand is observed and that cancels any three of the above".

    I went by at 7:30AM the other day and there was a guy curled up on the sidewalk on the SW corner sleeping and then two LEO's pulled up and openly confronted a guy on the SE corner in front of the starbucks for the 15 min that I was there, conducting an interview from 5 feet away (maybe he smelled to high heaven). Alternately, does this say that only 1 or 2 get the lights and siren or is it 4 of the 6 need to be met, and which ones? This seems to be poor content at best for training information...but I may be taking it all out of context.

    Comments?
    Last edited by jt59; 08-10-2010 at 11:41 PM.
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    Is that what really passes for a training bulletin down there? I would be ashamed to put my name on that and call it anything. It also seems to imply that if you have to stop someone for OC then make up a good enough story to hold up in court.

    Out of the 6 factors they bring up for unlawful display it would seem the only one that matters is #4. The rest is BS.

    And I thought the one in spokane was bad!

    bob
    Last edited by BobR; 08-10-2010 at 11:42 PM.

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    I dont believe it is an official document, no letterhead, no signature, no date etc. The 6 enumerated factors dont make any legal sense at all. If #1 were a reason to do a Terry stop then any LEO could stop anyone any time they were in any neighberhood for any reason at all. I'm calling BS until proven otherwise.

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    More info please BigDave.

    What is this document supposed to be? Someone's typed notes from a class? A snip from an email? What?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    No letterhead, no date, no signature, no reference number - strange, an insufficient cite.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    More info please BigDave.

    What is this document supposed to be? Someone's typed notes from a class? A snip from an email? What?
    I received this today from Yakima City Attorney Cynthia Martinez and said it was written by their in house expert (excuse the reference) Bronson Faul, Assistant City Attorney on firearms matters and actually gave this training to YPD.
    It was addressed to me as being the outline which was used during training, so I will be looking into a FOIA request.

    Note on Bronson Faul when I was addressing the City Council on issues concerning the Mayors Emergency Powers and Ban on guns in the City Parks which later was handed off to Helen Harvey which was a big help in having these ordinances removed.

    Here is a part of an email I had written after the initial contact with Bronson during a City Council Meeting.

    Bronson supported his position not to remove the Mayors Emergency Powers to restrict firearms outside the home or business, with the Civil War and Martial Law in Foreign Countries, yes he said "Martial Law in Foreign Countries" since when does our Constitution take Foreign Countries Laws for ours?
    I have written back to Cynthia in hopes to offer some assistance in improving this.

    As to the comments thus far, I am also left wondering why Bronson is even working on issues as this, to say the least.

    The only thing that I can say I look at the actions or words I hear from day to day concerning MWAG.

    I feel Bronson approach was more to the training aspect of what would constitute unlawful carry as seen through the 3 citations listed in Spencer, Casad and Mitchell with a twist of Liberal Anti Gun View.

    The cites listed here take into consideration the circumstances surrounding each ruling, the list of 6 is a far reaching attempt to restrict our rights to Bear Arms.

    I am not aware of any ruling that uses any of the following to determine a threat.

    1. Type of Neighborhood
    2. Time of day
    3. The urban environment
    4. The size of weapon
    5. If the weapon had a visibly attached clip

    The only issue that is accurate here is The manner in which the weapon is carried.
    Last edited by BigDave; 08-11-2010 at 01:25 AM.

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    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    My neighborhood has had 2 shootings in 2 years. Looks like I meet all but number 4.


    Last edited by Bill Starks; 08-11-2010 at 01:29 AM.

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    I received this today from Yakima City Attorney Cynthia Martinez and said it was written by their in house expert (excuse the reference) Bronson Faul, Assistant City Attorney on firearms matters and actually gave this training to YPD.
    It was addressed to me as being the outline which was used during training, so I will be looking into a FOIA request.

    Note on Bronson Faul when I was addressing the City Council on issues concerning the Mayors Emergency Powers and Ban on guns in the City Parks which later was handed off to Helen Harvey which was a big help in having these ordinances removed.

    Here is a part of an email I had written after the initial contact with Bronson during a City Council Meeting.



    I have written back to Cynthia in hopes to offer some assistance in improving this.

    As to the comments thus far, I am also left wondering why Bronson is even working on issues as this, to say the least.

    The only thing that I can say I look at the actions or words I hear from day to day concerning MWAG.

    I feel Bronson approach was more to the training aspect of what would constitute unlawful carry as seen through the 3 citations listed in Spencer, Casad and Mitchell with a twist of Liberal Anti Gun View.

    The cites listed here take into consideration the circumstances surrounding each ruling, the list of 6 is a far reaching attempt to restrict our rights to Bear Arms.

    I am not aware of any ruling that uses any of the following to determine a threat.

    1. Type of Neighborhood
    2. Time of day
    3. The urban environment
    4. The size of weapon
    5. If the weapon had a visibly attached clip

    The only issue that is accurate here is The manner in which the weapon is carried.
    ....and that would have to be in a threatening or intimidating way to cause alarm...not just walking around with a holstered sidearm either OC'd or concealed
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Regular Member ARADCOM's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Training Memo? I don't think so!

    1. Type of Neighborhood
    So, what areas of Yakima are OK and which aren't? Is there going to be a color coded map provided?

    2. Time of day
    And would a particular area be OK at one time but not at another? Whoa, tough for scheduling!

    3. The urban environment
    What the hell does that even mean?

    4. The manner in which the weapon was carried
    OK, that one I can see. Properly holstered would be good.

    5. The size of weapon
    Physical size or are they talking caliber?

    6. If the weapon had a visibly attached clip
    Uh, yeah, it's loaded Officer, isn't yours?
    Last edited by ARADCOM; 08-11-2010 at 01:56 AM.

  11. #11
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    This is the video where Bronson Faul tries to defend not removing the illegal emergency powers of the Mayor to restrict firearms possession outside the home or business.

    http://205.172.45.10/Cablecast/Publi...=2&ShowID=2031 fast forward to 40:25

    Also note that from what I have seen and heard issues of MWAG have improved regardless of this training outline.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ARADCOM View Post
    1. Type of Neighborhood
    So, what areas of Yakima are OK and which aren't? Is there going to be a color coded map provided?

    2. Time of day
    And would a particular area be OK at one time but not at another? Whoa, tough for scheduling!

    3. The urban environment
    What the hell does that even mean?

    4. The manner in which the weapon was carried
    OK, that one I can see. Properly holstered would be good.

    5. The size of weapon
    Physical size or are they talking caliber?

    6. If the weapon had a visibly attached clip
    Uh, yeah, it's loaded Officer, isn't yours?
    +1

    this kinda seems like a training bulletin designed to harass OC'ers not prevent them from being harassed..... at least IMHO
    Last edited by devildoc5; 08-11-2010 at 02:43 AM.

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    Regular Member killchain's Avatar
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    This looks like supporting notes for a training session involving "what is 'suspicious behavior' in an MWAG call."

    However, it is a positive sign that they are training their officers.
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." -John Stuart Mill

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    What bothers me about the "type of neighborhood" thing is that it implies that people that live in bad neighborhoods (like Yakima, or anywhere in the county) are somehow entitled to less right to open carry, or are more of a threat, because there is more of a reason to carry in those areas. I know YPD didn't make the rules, but it seems that the Wa SC's interpretation violates the equal protection clause. Or can we just OC in Bellevue and don't have that right here?
    So, what areas of Yakima are OK and which aren't? Is there going to be a color coded map provided?
    There actually might be. A while back, there was a proposal by the current mayor of Yakima to implement a curfew in certain neighborhoods. An all-ages curfew. Of course, his neighborhood was not on the list. It wouldn't surprise me to see a map, perhaps introduced at a trial, that shows that type of neighborhood where OC would warrant alarm, and the neighborhood where we are just exercising rights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by devildoc5 View Post
    +1

    this kinda seems like a training bulletin designed to harass OC'ers not prevent them from being harassed..... at least IMHO
    I don't think so. They're basing it off court rulings, not their own opinion. I've OCed in Yakima on a number of occasions, and never been bothered. The YPD tend to be rational, as far as police departments go.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cynicist View Post
    I don't think so. They're basing it off court rulings, not their own opinion. I've OCed in Yakima on a number of occasions, and never been bothered. The YPD tend to be rational, as far as police departments go.
    It would seem by them quoting case law of Spencer, Casad and Mitchell and you look at the six with out surrounding factors of an incident is well arbitrary to say the least.

    What should have been covered is Washington State Constitution Article 1 Section 24 and RCW 9.41.270.

    This is how I see Bronson Fauls' 6 Factors for unlawful display are broken down.

    1. The type of neighborhood (no restriction in RCW 9.41)
    2. The time of day (no restriction in RCW 9.41)
    3. The Urban environment (no restriction in RCW 9.41)
    4. The manner in which the weapon is carried (open carry is legal)
    5. The size and type of weapon (no restriction in RCW 9.41)
    6. If the weapon had a visibly attached clip. (no restriction in RCW 9.41)

    Maybe if these were used to justify a Terry Stop it would be appropriate but not a criminal charge.
    Last edited by BigDave; 08-11-2010 at 10:52 AM.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    I received this today from Yakima City Attorney Cynthia Martinez and said it was written by their in house expert (excuse the reference) Bronson Faul, Assistant City Attorney on firearms matters and actually gave this training to YPD.
    It was addressed to me as being the outline which was used during training, so I will be looking into a FOIA request.
    If this is the type of work this "expert" is capable of producing in the form of a Training Memo/Bulletin, it is sad that the taxpayers are paying his salary. Essentially it said NOTHING. Even as an outline it leaves a lot to be desired. It has all the earmarks of "someone told me to write a memo on this subject so I did."

    Better training bulletins could be written by many of the "NON-Professionals" here on this forum with greater intelligence and effect.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    I asked City Legal for the training on the issues of Open Carry in Yakima.
    Instead what I received is how to justify a Terry Stop, labeled "The 6 Factors for Unlawful Display".
    The outline is lacking in professionalism and does not nearly address the issues at hand.

    I have submitted my FOIA Request this morning and we will see what comes of it.

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    BigDave you have a lot of work to do with these people, good luck. Every time I think they cant be that ignorant they just gotta prove me wrong again.

  20. #20
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    With a little further discussion with Yakima City Attorney Martinez, a few things were cleared up as to their position lawful carry of firearms in the City of Yakima and else where for that matter.

    The outline to my understanding is more for elements to be considered for a Terry Stop and not a one or two item issue.

    The issue of neighborhood, time of day, size of weapon, visible magazine and other elements are issues how they were used and viewed in case law in the Martinez, Mitchell and Casad Cases.

    This would apply instances of someone carrying a handgun in their hand late at night in a rival gang neighborhood and acting suspiciously.
    Versus someone open carrying in a holster while walking to a store during any hours of day or night or neighborhood.

    I also feel they have not came out with training bulletins as they have not had the issues with people that exercise their rights.

    I feel Yakima is more in align then I or others have first have given then credit for, thankfully.
    Last edited by BigDave; 08-12-2010 at 02:32 PM.

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    Drunk posting this early in the morning? Really?

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Drunk posting this early in the morning? Really?
    Quick on the stick there deanf

    Darn copy and paste anyways, it is fixed now

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    Campaign Veteran OlGutshotWilly's Avatar
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    1. Type of Neighborhood
    So, what areas of Yakima are OK and which aren't? Is there going to be a color coded map provided?
    In Yakima, you don't need a color coded map. All neighborhoods east of the tracks/Front street are bad, and all the neighborhoods west of the tracks/Front street are the good neighborhoods.

    Simple and straightforward...........
    THE SECOND AMENDMENT: Washington didn't use his right to free speech to defeat the British, he shot them.
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by n15wb View Post
    In Yakima, you don't need a color coded map. All neighborhoods east of the tracks/Front street are bad, and all the neighborhoods west of the tracks/Front street are the good neighborhoods.

    Simple and straightforward...........
    That is the way it use to be many years ago but no longer.

    There are also gang areas west of the tracks as well;
    west of the tracks from Fruitvale South to close to Washington ave and west to 16th ave and then south of Nobhill to Washington and west of 16th ave west to around 30th ave.

    Again this is one of several items to consider for a Terry Stop when a suspected crime is or is about to be committed.

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran OlGutshotWilly's Avatar
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    That is unfortunate that they are slowly encroaching into the west and southsides. I'll have to remember that when I'm over there.

    Cheers,
    THE SECOND AMENDMENT: Washington didn't use his right to free speech to defeat the British, he shot them.
    ---------------------------------------------
    Government is not reason; it is not eloquent -- it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
    --George Washington,
    first U.S. president

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