Charges reduced to manslaughter in Tigh Croff case

Michigander · Aug 12, 2010

DrTodd said:
Since he is not a state actor, his actions being deemed a violation of someone else's "rights" fails. .

No it doesn't. The way the founders saw it, rights were inherently property based, and all men are equal to Kings. Due process is carried out by government actions, this is true of any healthy republic. But when someone threatens someone elses rights, in this case your right to life/safety of ones body, a common law and constitutional right to self defense as old as time itself exists, and even for bystanders to defend other innocent people.

The shooter did not have a right to take the victims life, and he took it anyway, depriving him of his right to live. When you deprive someone of their rights by victimizing them, you become a criminal, as happened to this guy. If you want to get more legaleeze than that, fine by me, but in simple terms, what I said is accurate.

Citizen · Aug 13, 2010

Michigander said:
SNIP When you deprive someone of their rights by victimizing them, you become a criminal

Worse taint: You become government.

I mean really, can you imagine a worse epithet? Well, maybe "congress."

ghostrider · Aug 13, 2010

detroit_fan said:
I guess we can agree to disagree

Disagree with what? That the dead man had already surrendered?

dougwg · Aug 13, 2010

There are 2 issues here, 2 sides if you will.

One: He murdered that man(criminal) in cold blood and should be prosecuted accordingly.

Two: I believe the prosecution is trying to send a message to the criminals by reducing the charges that "we" have had enough.

Think of it this way...

If they stick it to this guy it sends a message to "good people" to not get involved and lay down in the face of criminal activity. Somewhat supporting criminals and to hell with victims.

If they let him off easy(easier) it sends a message to criminals that we're fed up and we're not going to take it anymore.

Yes, when you put blinders on and only consider the actors and actions in this, justice would be served by a conviction of murder 2.

But on a grander scale it does "more good" with respect to society in general to go easy on Croff.

stainless1911 · Aug 13, 2010

Agreed, politics over justice.

detroit_fan · Aug 13, 2010

ghostrider said:
Disagree with what? That the dead man had already surrendered?

I completely disagree with your take on the entire situation, and you will not convince me otherwise, so I simply said we can disagree. I don't believe what he did was wrong, I don't believe he should go to jail, and I don't believe a judge reducing to manslaughter is an example of activism, I find it to be common sense. If you want to continue debating that's your right, but I've stated my opinion and it will not change.

ghostrider · Aug 13, 2010

dougwg said:
There are 2 issues here, 2 sides if you will.

One: He murdered that man(criminal) in cold blood and should be prosecuted accordingly.

Two: I believe the prosecution is trying to send a message to the criminals by reducing the charges that "we" have had enough.

Think of it this way...

If they stick it to this guy it sends a message to "good people" to not get involved and lay down in the face of criminal activity. Somewhat supporting criminals and to hell with victims.

If they let him off easy(easier) it sends a message to criminals that we're fed up and we're not going to take it anymore.

Yes, when you put blinders on and only consider the actors and actions in this, justice would be served by a conviction of murder 2.

But on a grander scale it does "more good" with respect to society in general to go easy on Croff.

I've seen examples of this elsewhere.

Can't say I disagree with it. Sending a message to the thugs is a good thing. Then again, are we really that bunch of vigilantes that the Brady bunch claims we are?

ghostrider · Aug 13, 2010

detroit_fan said:
I completely disagree with your take on the entire situation, and you will not convince me otherwise, so I simply said we can disagree. I don't believe what he did was wrong, I don't believe he should go to jail, and I don't believe a judge reducing to manslaughter is an example of activism, I find it to be common sense. If you want to continue debating that's your right, but I've stated my opinion and it will not change.

Not trying to change your opinion (no need to be so defensive), just trying to make sure I properly understand what you said.

So if you don't mind. Let me get this straight.

detroit_fan said:
I don't believe what he did was wrong,

So, am I correct to understand that you feel it's perfectly acceptable to kill someone who has surrendered themselves into your control (that isn't "my take", it's what was reported)?

If so, Fair enough.
If not, then

Or, are you suggesting that that isn't how it happened?

Don't get me wrong. I believe that a change in the law granting more latitude in the use of deadly force would see a reduction in crime. I'm just wondering where that line is.

DrTodd · Aug 13, 2010

ghostrider said:
I've seen examples of this elsewhere.

Can't say I disagree with it. Sending a message to the thugs is a good thing. Then again, are we really that bunch of vigilantes that the Brady bunch claims we are?

A vigilante is someone who illegally punishes someone for actual or perceived offenses. Since the Judge is not arguing that Mr Croff has not committed any crime, that perception is much like the other drivel the Brady Bunch avers: pure garbage.

I am certain that within our ranks there are those who, faced with similar circumstances, would do the same. However, I also believe that with almost all of the same "facts" of the case, some here would have the ability to turn a seemingly "illegal" chain of events into a series of very "legal" events. It behooves all of us to know the law, and to use the law, to keep our behavior "legal".

Charges reduced to manslaughter in Tigh Croff case

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