Why I would carry into a bar

This is my response to ALOTAGLOCK post #178 as we were getting off topic. As courtesy to original poster, (sorry peterarthur) I decided to start this thread.
ALOTAGLOCK: post 178
Because it is a Bar. A gun is the last thing you need around a bunch of drunk idiots. Whether you are drinking or not it is irresponsible to have something like that around all who do. You cannot give a honest real good reason for a gun to be in a bar. I am not under any under standing I just know how the majority of the public is. I would hope someone someday realizes that a bar is no place for a firearm. It is dagerous enough with intoxicated baboons and their fists, or even beer bottles. Too many bad turns to have a gun in a bar. Note I am only saying Bar. Your local Applebee's I don't care. It is not a place where large groups of people go to get Sh!tfaced. No good would come of having a gun in a bar. Even if you are not drinking.

my reply:

I have to respectfully disagree. In a bar with a bunch of drunk idiots a gun is the first thing I would want and the last thing I would hope to use. If is is irresponsible to have a gun in a bar, I guess in your way of thinking it would be irresposible for a LEO's to carry into such an enviroment. I mean it is a place where people go to get Sh!tfaced and no good could come from having a gun in a bar with a bunch a intoxicated baboons. Even if your not drinking.

Yeah, I know how the majority of people think. I am not going to assume I could change your way of thinking, any more than you could change mine. But I think it important that some know the reasons I would carry into a bar or Walmart for that matter. I will start by asking a few questions.
Have you ever been life flighted to a trauma center with stab wounds to the chest?
Have you ever known what it feels like to fight for every breath due to a punctured lung, hole in your paracardium, and a wound to your heart?
Have you every been in the ER with your best friend ( who happens to live in the city where the trauma center is located) and have to ask him to make sure your children are taken care of and tell them you love them just before surgerycomes to get you?
Have you ever woke up in the recovery room with a tube down your throat, your wife crying, and not been able to speak to give her some comfort and tell her everything would be all right? Even if you knew that it might not be true.
Have you ever known the pain of a drainage tube the size of a garden hose pulled from your chest?
Have you ever been released from the hospital on Christmas eve?
Have you ever sat in your recliner with your family and friends present,watch your children open their presents and thank God you were there to see it?
Have you ever had to ask your brother to help you up the stairs because you were starting to cry and you didn't want to upset your children?
Have ever been life flighted to Barnes Jewish 2 more times due to paracarditus over the next 3 months?
Do you have any idea what it is like to know, you will never be the same person mentally or physically because of the things that have happened to you? And you done nothing to cause these things to happen.

I do.
I made a promise to my wife and children NOTHING like this would ever happen to THEM or me again as long as I have a breath left in my body. It is a promise I take very seriously. I have been around guns all my life. I have supported 2nd amendment issues since I have been old enough to know what they meant. But it took a life changing event for me to start practicing what I preach. I obtained my CCW and got some training as well as insisting my wife do the same, and am quite confident in my abilities. We support OC, we support anything that will make our 2nd amendment rights stronger.
I am setting here with a lump in the back of my throat, laptop in hand watching, my daughter watch cartoons. I am thankful that these thing have made me stronger mentally. Although I would not wish it upon anyone. Life is full of injustices, if it comes down to a burgler, a crazy person at Walmart, some drunk at the bar or Walmart for that matter (lol), and the life of my loved ones or my own. I plan on them and me being here tommorrow.... So I can live my life in fear as a shutin or take responibility for myself and legally carry where ever I am allowed. It may not be a good enough reason for you. It may not be a good enough reason for the majority. But it is the only one I have and the only one I need.

this started in the, " stopped in Walmart finally" thread if anyone needs some prior text.

I carry in a bar the same as anywhere else.

Yes I have been stabbed. The unluckly son of a B., and me being lucky, he managed to twist his wrist which caused the knife to jam between 2 ribs. So no I don't know what it is like to have a knife do vital damage.
With that; Have you ever been shot.? Well I have. Luckily I was wearing a steel rifle rated truama plate in my 3A ballistic vest. The round broke 3 ribs. I have come DAMN near to death more times than I ever want or wanted to. I have the utmost respect for those who have also. I am not hear to compare sizes. I hope that justice was served for what happened to you. No one should ever have to expierence the pain that you went through. I mean that with all the respect. I don't know the situation so we can just leave it at that.

But what happened to me in Iraq does not change my outlook on the topic of carrying in a bar. I don't see why shooting Mr. Big Bad Biker, with his dukes up is right. That is what you are saying here. That does not make any sense. Esspecially when there is a certain degree of knowledge that in a bar, around people who have consumed alcohol, a fight may break out. Tell me that there is not some preconcieved notion that that may happen. Hell now that I think of it that way it is almost premeditated murder on your part. Knowing that you will shoot a man for punching you. OKAY OKAY that is a really big leap.
Listen whatever you want to do. I won't have to defend you. You will. If you can defend your actions then I think this topic is over.

ALOTAGLOCK said:

Yes I have been stabbed. The unluckly son of a B., and me being lucky, he managed to twist his wrist which caused the knife to jam between 2 ribs. So no I don't know what it is like to have a knife do vital damage.
With that; Have you ever been shot.? Well I have. Luckily I was wearing a steel rifle rated truama plate in my 3A ballistic vest. The round broke 3 ribs. I have come DAMN near to death more times than I ever want or wanted to. I have the utmost respect for those who have also. I am not hear to compare sizes. I hope that justice was served for what happened to you. No one should ever have to expierence the pain that you went through. I mean that with all the respect. I don't know the situation so we can just leave it at that.

But what happened to me in Iraq does not change my outlook on the topic of carrying in a bar. I don't see why shooting Mr. Big Bad Biker, with his dukes up is right. That is what you are saying here. That does not make any sense. Esspecially when there is a certain degree of knowledge that in a bar, around people who have consumed alcohol, a fight may break out. Tell me that there is not some preconcieved notion that that may happen. Hell now that I think of it that way it is almost premeditated murder on your part. Knowing that you will shoot a man for punching you. OKAY OKAY that is a really big leap.
Listen whatever you want to do. I won't have to defend you. You will. If you can defend your actions then I think this topic is over.

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First of all let me say thank-you for your service to our country. I really mean that, you have my utmost respect.
What happened to me has changed my outlook on alot of things, and maybe some of them come naturally with age. I don't know. I can honestly say I have never been angry one time in this "debate" if you will, over this topic.
I respect your opinion as your own, and you are entitled to it. It is your choice and it not for me to say it is wrong, for only you can decide what is best for you in any given situation. If I ever implied as much I apologize. I do not have to understand it for it to be right for you.
I would respectfully request that you try to respect my opinion as well, for I am not a drunk. I am not a criminal.I don't go out looking for trouble. I am not going to "shoot bikers with their dukes up", hell I don't want to shoot anyone. I am not premeditating murder. I will agree there is a certain degree of knowledge that in a bar where people have consumed alcohol a fight may break out. And there is a preconcieved notion that it could happen anywhere. While I would hope the situation never arises at a bar or anywhere else. I carry for the intent of hoping that I never have the need. But I prepare for the what if. I would not kill anyone for punching me. I believe that a OC'd weapon or a concealed weapon could become a openly carried weapon quickly enough that a sticky situation could be diffused. I believe it could be unless you were up against a totally insane (not drunk) person. I believe that is one of the main purposes that I personally OC in alot of the places I go. A deterrent. Again just my opinion.

I am not asking you to condone it, understand it, or defend it. I'll do that. Just respect it because it is mine, and believe it or not,, for the most part we are on the same side. Second amendment rights needs BOTH of us, for if we cannot agree to disagree on somethings there is two other people in this world that would like to take our rights away no matter where we might be. Wether it be in the bar or in our own homes.

Honestly looking forward to reading more of your post, on a different subject of course. LOL

Booze + Guns = bad results IMHO. Drink and sort brass only myself.

Read the Constitution of the US and Missouri, no reference to combining the two = personal choice one must make.

If you ask me, I will recommend you do not drink while carrying a firearm anywhere including your home, it is a bad idea.

When you do not drink, there is no reason you should be restricted in your right to self protection.

In a bar, I would recommend if you carry, you strongly consider CCW over open carry so some drunk and disorderly does not see and try and grab your gun and cause a problem and I would also recommend you not drink.

Beyond that, you have to make your own decisions and live with your own actions. I don't figure you need me telling you what to do and you sure do not need the government telling you what to do so I really can not support a "law" to force you to adopt my views that bars and guns do not mix.

I think of it this way, if you consider bars to be high crime locations then you need the protection of it NOT being illegal to carry into a bar. Situation: Your kid makes bad choice and goes to bar, gets too drunk to drive perhaps even effectively walk, there is no reason to force you to leave your gun in the car in a high crime zone where it could be stolen and force you to walk into a high crime zone without protection for yourself.

That is all a law would do as anyone whom is already hellbent on carrying a gun into a bar does so and criminals never did care about the law, so such a law would indeed just impose regulation on the responsible citizens of our country who do not NEED regulated behavior to know the difference between right and wrong.

The end, get mad, agree, disagree, call me anti- OC I do not care, I am tired of the fussing round here.

ALOTAGLOCK said:

Esspecially when there is a certain degree of knowledge that in a bar, around people who have consumed alcohol, a fight may break out. Tell me that there is not some preconcieved notion that that may happen. Hell now that I think of it that way it is almost premeditated murder on your part.

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So according to you, carrying a firarm where you are more likely to need it is a bad idea?

Using this logic, since you are more likely to be shot in a North St. Louis gas station on a Saturday night, you probably shouldn't carry a gun there, right?

If you're going to use a poorly lit ATM at night, you're better off leaving your firearm at home. After all, the chance of you actually needing your firearm would increase, and according to your previous logic, it would not be a good idea to have a firearm where you're more likely to need it.

Superlite27 said:

So according to you, carrying a firarm where you are more likely to need it is a bad idea?

Using this logic, since you are more likely to be shot in a North St. Louis gas station on a Saturday night, you probably shouldn't carry a gun there, right?

If you're going to use a poorly lit ATM at night, you're better off leaving your firearm at home. After all, the chance of you actually needing your firearm would increase, and according to your previous logic, it would not be a good idea to have a firearm where you're more likely to need it.

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I agree. In the wild west everyone carried EVERYWHERE. It was indeed "wild" but fair. Crime was low and people viewed firearms as tools, not living objects of evil that killed people at random. Firearms were everywhere( including bars) and yet life somehow seemed to flourish. Firearms are a necessity, just as with oxygen. People merely basing opinions( and stating them as facts) off of poor logic is not going to make a good argument.

Some people also got shot over card games.

I don't have a problem being out and have 1 or 2 while carrying, at a restaurant or MAYBE a bar at non peak hours. Some serve food. However, I wouldn't OC into a bar. And I believe it is actually illegal to CC without managers consent? So, kinda out of luck there. If I go to a bar, it's usually to get drunk and have a good time. I respect the fact that I give up the right to my gun by doing that. Being around a bunch of drunk tards is the perfect chance for a gun grab situation. And trust me, they'll think it's funny.

I'm not coming from a side of "oh alcohol is bad". I go out with friends all the time, and have a fridge full of beer. What I do at home, is what I do at home, but I will not OC into a bar. CC, if you can get it cleared with the manager and you are not getting hammered, well, that's up to the individual.

Obviously non of us are going to change each others opinions. Just posting mine.

IMHO, the threat isn't in the bar itself. It is walking to your car carrying for your drunk friends when you are lucky enough to be selected DD for the night. I know that the walk between the bar and the car is where most of the threats one would encounter would be. The typical bar fight would be just that, a fight, no more no less. I just think that my right to protect myself to and from the bar is where the logic of carrying "in a bar" should be.

Good post Freedom. I agree it's the 1st thing I would want as a resource and the last thing I would ever want to have to use in that same environment. The intelligence quotient at a bar or night club tends to go south in a speedy fashion throughout the night. Many antis or on-the-fence'rs tend to believe that certain locations should be off limits, but they forget that ANYTHING can be promptly turned into a weapon. Something as simple as a Bic ink pen can be used to puncture and cause death by exsanguination (bleeding out), get it in the right place and deep enough and you can stop the heart, puncture the brain, or even puncture a lung. This is the exact reason a sober person (non-drinking while carrying) should be allowed to lawfully carry anywhere at any time...ie no restrictions on carry because the Constitution does not restrict where, when, or how. (technically doesn't restrict who either)

Should I choose to go to a bar or club that will grant me permission (going to ask as I'd be the DD if I do carry), then I would want the tool at my disposal and will make sure it stays concealed.

Don't drink when you carry outside your home.