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Thread: Barnes and Noble, Peninsula Town Center

  1. #1
    Regular Member maverick2694's Avatar
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    Barnes and Noble, Peninsula Town Center

    On Saturday, August 7th, I took my wife out to dinner at the Tokyo Japanese Steakhouse in Hampton, and we then proceeded to shop around the Peninsula Town Center mall. I was OC'ing my Kimber Compact CDP II in a Serpa holster. We passed several police officers and security guards, with not a word said. As we continued walking around, we decided to check and see if Barnes and Noble had Deadwood season 2 (they had a lot of their DVD's and Blu-Rays 40% to 50% off).

    As we were browsing through the DVD's, we were approached by a manager. The manager identified herself as the store manager, Diane. She informed me that all weapons, whether legal or not, were prohibited from all Barnes and Noble buildings. I asked her if this was her policy or the corporate policy, and she stated that it was corporate policy. As we were talking, I politely challenged her about the corporate policy, and pulled up the response from Mary Ausman (Supervisor of Customer Retention) that was posted in the thread about the Libbie Place incident. Mrs. Ausman's letter states that the Barnes and Noble corporate policy is to follow state and local law. Once this was pointed out to Diane, she stated that prohibiting firearms was her policy and until she had a hard copy of the corporate policy nothing was going to change it. She then asked me to leave the store.

    As soon as we left, I called Barnes and Noble's customer service line to reverify their policy. I spoke with Elaine, who was very professional and courteous, and she assured me that Barnes and Noble did not prohibit law abiding customers from carrying in their stores. I described the incident to her, and she informed me that Diane was not the store manager, but an assistant manager. She then gave me a reference number, apologized for the incident, and assured me that the store manager, Linda McGee, would contact me about the incident within the next few days.

    Today, I spoke with Linda, the store manager. She stated that I was not prohibited from entering the store with my pistol, and that corporate policy is to allow customers to legally carry. She also said that it is her personal preference that no one bring any type of firearm in the store, and that if anyone (customer or employee) comes to her feeling uncorfortable about the firearm, that I would be asked to leave again. She said that she felt that asking the person OC'ing to leave was the easiest way to keep everyone happy. I asked her what she thought about the rights of the person carrying, and she said that she could ask anyone in her store to place the firearm in their car and that they have the right to refuse. I then explained to her that almost anyone OC'ing would not like to place the firearm in their car because anyone watching would see them place it in the car and then leave it unattended, leaving it open for theft. I then asked her what would happen if the person refused to place the firearm in their vehicle, and she said that they would be asked to leave. I then told her that anyone who refused to leave after being asked, as she said they have the right to, would then open themselves up to trespassing charges. She had no response to that statement. I then thanked her for her time, and wished her a good day.

    I don't really plan to go back to that store anytime soon, as I usually stay south of the HRBT, but I felt that my fellow OC'ers would like to know about the incident. If we do go back and I am asked to leave again, I will file another complaint, but instead of the store manager I will speak with the district or general manager.

    In case anyone is interested, here is the managers name and contact number:
    Linda McGee
    Store Manager, Peninsula Town Center Barnes and Noble
    (757) 827-1158

  2. #2
    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    Thanks for the report.
    I've had no problem at many Barnes and Nobles. Sounds like you just ran into an anti.
    Last edited by t33j; 08-12-2010 at 09:12 PM.
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    Lone Star Veteran Hokie's Avatar
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    She said that she felt that asking the person OC'ing to leave was the easiest way to keep everyone happy
    So they are happy not to have your business?

    I have OCed in the Reston B&N and have yet to have a problem.
    "Capitalism and communism stand at opposite poles. Their essential difference is this: The communist, seeing the rich man and his fine home, says: 'No man should have so much.' The capitalist, seeing the same thing, says: 'All men should have as much.'"- Phelps Adams

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hokie View Post
    So they are happy not to have your business?

    I have OCed in the Reston B&N and have yet to have a problem.
    I've OC'd at that very B&N MANY times! Never had any problems or even bugeyes. I OC at Borders, B&N and Books a Million regularly all over the Peninsula and have yet to encounter an anti. Guess I've been lucky.
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    It sounds like another call to Elaine needs to be made, informing her of Linda's interpretation of corporate policy as being "that corporate policy is to allow customers to legally carry, [but] it is her personal preference that no one bring any type of firearm in the store, and that if anyone (customer or employee) comes to her feeling uncorfortable about the firearm, that [they] would be asked to leave."

    Thank you for taking the time to contact B&N Corporate to clarify policy. Please take the additional time to request that Corporate help Linda understand that she should not be substituting her personal preference for that policy.

    stay safe.

  6. #6
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    It sounds like another call to Elaine needs to be made, informing her of Linda's interpretation of corporate policy as being "that corporate policy is to allow customers to legally carry, [but] it is her personal preference that no one bring any type of firearm in the store, and that if anyone (customer or employee) comes to her feeling uncorfortable about the firearm, that [they] would be asked to leave."

    Thank you for taking the time to contact B&N Corporate to clarify policy. Please take the additional time to request that Corporate help Linda understand that she should not be substituting her personal preference for that policy.

    stay safe.
    My thoughts exactly. What other corporate policies would be so open to "interpretation" of the local manager or especially the assistant manager. I bet NONE!

    TFred

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    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    Technically...

    ...If you have permission to carry in B&N from Elaine, The manager Linda would no longer have the legal authority to throw you out simply for the act of carry, even if someone did complain it made them uneasy.

    If she called the cops, the charges would be eventually dropped, but the police would have to initially side with Linda and arrest you, and they would be right to do so, so don't go trying it.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
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    Quote Originally Posted by simmonsjoe View Post
    ...If you have permission to carry in B&N from Elaine, The manager Linda would no longer have the legal authority to throw you out simply for the act of carry, even if someone did complain it made them uneasy.

    If she called the cops, the charges would be eventually dropped, but the police would have to initially side with Linda and arrest you, and they would be right to do so, so don't go trying it.
    Cites, please.

    What law says the verbal statement of policy from corporate legally overrides or nullifies the later ejection by the on-site agent?

    What law says the on-site agent has to follow corporate policy with regard to asking someone to leave, or that failure to follow corporate policy legally nullifies the on-site agent's request to leave?
    Last edited by Citizen; 08-12-2010 at 11:47 PM.

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    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    Cite what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Cites, please.

    What law says the verbal statement of policy from corporate legally overrides or nullifies the later ejection by the on-site agent?

    What law says the on-site agent has to follow corporate policy with regard to asking someone to leave, or that failure to follow corporate policy legally nullifies the on-site agent's request to leave?
    It is her employer. Also known as her boss. She has no authority except what they give her. It is private property, and not hers. I'm not sure what aspect of this is confusing?
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by simmonsjoe View Post
    It is her employer. Also known as her boss. She has no authority except what they give her. It is private property, and not hers. I'm not sure what aspect of this is confusing?
    I'm not confusing anything. I'm asking you for legal cites that support your statements.

    What law nullifies the legality of the on-site agent's request to leave if the request is out of line with corporate policy? I know of no law that requires the on-site agent to follow corporate policy.

    Also, I know of no law that gives supremacy to a Tuesday verbal permission to appear from corporate over a Thursday in-person request to leave from an on-site agent.

    Maybe a better way to ask it would be to say, "What requires the government to recognize corporate policy as superior to the request of an on-site agent?"

    Separately, Elaine in Customer Service, who gave the implied verbal permission by restating policy, would not be in the chain of command of the on-site agent. Customer Service is not management.

    Cites, please.
    Last edited by Citizen; 08-13-2010 at 01:40 AM.

  11. #11
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    An on-site agent (employee) has considerable authority. Unless you can get a higher authority on site to overrule the one in which you were advised, you will likely inherent the short end of the stick.

    An employee can be corrected, retrained or fired if the don't follow policy. You can be arrested, forced to defend, probably without help from management. Their policy won't be in question, but whether you in fact were told and refused to leave.

    As in arguing with a LEO on the street is the wrong place and time, so is arguing corporate policy best done after the fact.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 08-13-2010 at 01:45 PM. Reason: spelling
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    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    I clearly stated the police would still arrest you, rightfully, and not to try this.

    The ******* point was that the OP should not let the situation stand as the manager's response wasn't acceptable.

    The manager is stating she'll violate the property rights of the owners/lessee of the property.
    Last edited by simmonsjoe; 08-13-2010 at 02:52 PM.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
    G19 Gen 4; Bersa Thunder 380; Sig Sauer P238; Kel-Tec su-16c

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    Regular Member maverick2694's Avatar
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    Update...

    I spoke with another customer service representative for Barnes and Noble, and inquired about the store manager overriding corporate policy due to personal feeling/preference, and was informed that since I had already spoken with the manager any other questions or follow-up on the issue would have to be taken up with the store manager.

    I then asked for contact information for the General/District manager and was informed that they do not deal with customer relations, and only employees can contact them with issues.

    So, it seems that if I want to clarify the issue about Linda McGee making her own policy (direct contradiction to corporate policy) I have to speak with her again, and I can't speak with her supervisor about anything.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    I don't know why you had a problem Maverick. I have never had a problem in the PTC Barnes and Noble.

    Good to hear that PRC accepts that OC in the Authority areas cannot be prevented.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Wow.

    "I'm about to go public with extensive details of your rogue store manager who is completely disregarding your corporate policy and making up the rules as she goes along. Are you sure 'talk to her again' is the answer you want to stick with?

    What do you think would be the results here if this were a discrimination incident?"

    TFred

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfred View Post
    what do you think would be the results here if this were a discrimination incident?"
    ftw.

    BTW, it IS a discrimination incident.
    Last edited by wylde007; 08-13-2010 at 04:22 PM.
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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    ftw.

    BTW, it IS a discrimination incident.
    Yes, but so far at least, not against one of the designated classes...

    TFred

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    Regular Member maverick2694's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    "I'm about to go public with extensive details of your rogue store manager who is completely disregarding your corporate policy and making up the rules as she goes along. Are you sure 'talk to her again' is the answer you want to stick with?
    That's actually almost exactly what I asked the CSR. I'm thinking about going back tomorrow evening to pick up Deadwood Season 2. Anyone care to meet/accompany me?

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maverick2694 View Post
    That's actually almost exactly what I asked the CSR. I'm thinking about going back tomorrow evening to pick up Deadwood Season 2. Anyone care to meet/accompany me?
    If I had time I'd go. That's perfect for the video glasses. Can't get away tomorrow though.

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    Regular Member maverick2694's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    If I had time I'd go. That's perfect for the video glasses. Can't get away tomorrow though.
    How about Sunday?

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maverick2694 View Post
    How about Sunday?
    Sorry, I'll be at the farm until at least Tuesday.

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    Regular Member maverick2694's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Sorry, I'll be at the farm until at least Tuesday.
    Alright then. If anyone else is up for a field trip to Barnes and Noble tomorrow evening, let me know.

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    Regular Member Eeyore's Avatar
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    Problem: it's in the Town Center

    Guys,

    The point may be entirely moot: the B&N in question is located in the Hampton Town Center. IIRC, the Hampton Town Center in its entirety is a posted "Disarmed Victim Zone." (See http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...on+town+center) That being the case, B&N's landlord has already banned guns, regardless of B&N's corporate policy. If you want to OC in a B&N, try the one off Jefferson in Newport News
    Last edited by Eeyore; 08-13-2010 at 06:23 PM.

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    I have never had a problem at this B&N. I've OC'd there countless times without so much as a second look.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eeyore View Post
    Guys,

    The point may be entirely moot: the B&N in question is located in the Hampton Town Center. IIRC, the Hampton Town Center in its entirety is a posted "Disarmed Victim Zone." (See http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...on+town+center) That being the case, B&N's landlord has already banned guns, regardless of B&N's corporate policy. If you want to OC in a B&N, try the one off Jefferson in Newport News
    PTC has changed their policy to state "NO ILLEGAL WEAPONS". I talked to a security guard there who said the reason for the change was that city street run through it so they couldn't ban legal carry. It did make it a point to say that every store has the right to no allow weapons and that most there were against OC specifically. Once again though, I have not had any problems since the change in policy.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tralpat View Post
    I have never had a problem at this B&N. I've OC'd there countless times without so much as a second look.



    PTC has changed their policy to state "NO ILLEGAL WEAPONS". I talked to a security guard there who said the reason for the change was that city street run through it so they couldn't ban legal carry. It did make it a point to say that every store has the right to no allow weapons and that most there were against OC specifically. Once again though, I have not had any problems since the change in policy.
    This thread thoroughly hashes that out.
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...la+town+center
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