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Thread: Ordinance Violation / Jury Trial

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Ordinance Violation / Jury Trial

    Can an ordinance violation be taken to a jury trial?

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    Probably not. They are civil forfeitures.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
    Probably not. They are civil forfeitures.
    Then how could it be contested? What is the process? Is guilt or innocece(sp-where is the spell check feature?) decided solely by a judge?

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    In the case of a municipal ordinance violation, yes, I believe that is the case though more likely a magistrate than a judge. In the case of a federal asset forfeiture -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset_f...#United_States

    Locally, we cannot cite our ordinances for lack of a magistrate and so cite Door County Ordinances instead - and Door Co. takes all of the forfeiture value. Poo! Any one have a link to Door County Ordinances? I don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Then how could it be contested? What is the process? Is guilt or innocece(sp-where is the spell check feature?) decided solely by a judge?
    Whichever side loses in municipal court may appeal it by requesting a new trial before a circuit court judge. They also have the option of requesting a 6 person jury trial at the circuit court level.

    You actually have 3 options: 1) You may appeal by requesting a circuit court judge to review the case, 2) you may request a new trial before a circuit court judge, or, 3) you may request a new trial with the 6-person jury in a circuit court.

    Any of these appeal options must be made within 20 days of the municipal court's judgment.
    Last edited by Shotgun; 08-13-2010 at 02:14 PM.

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    The specifics of appealing a municipal court case are found in the statutes: Chapter 800.14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    The specifics of appealing a municipal court case are found in the statutes: Chapter 800.14
    That is correct, but not responding to the OP, "Can an ordinance violation be taken to a jury trial?" Because 800.01 requires a citation filed with the (municipal) court to commence action.

    Quote Originally Posted by 800.01
    Commencement of action. (1) In municipal court, personal jurisdiction in municipal ordinance violation cases and cases involving a violation of a resolution or bylaw if the resolution or bylaw is authorized by statute is obtained over a defendant when the defendant: (a) Is served with a summons and complaint or citation and such documents are filed with or transmitted to the court; ...
    Heh heh heh - my hair-splitting Occam's Razor is +4 standard deviations sharp! You can read that as 'very very very very' sharp like me.
    Last edited by Doug Huffman; 08-13-2010 at 02:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
    In the case of a municipal ordinance violation, yes, I believe that is the case though more likely a magistrate than a judge. In the case of a federal asset forfeiture -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset_f...#United_States

    Locally, we cannot cite our ordinances for lack of a magistrate and so cite Door County Ordinances instead - and Door Co. takes all of the forfeiture value. Poo! Any one have a link to Door County Ordinances? I don't.
    I posted this link before:

    The State:
    http://wilawlibrary.gov/topics/ordinances.php

    Door County
    http://www.co.door.wi.gov/docs_by_ca...d=16&locid=137

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
    That is correct, but not responding to the OP, "Can an ordinance violation be taken to a jury trial?"
    Clearly I was responding to his question about appeals, which was probably the question he was trying to ask in the OP. But in your haste to cut down the forest you may have missed that tree with your razor!

    In philosophy grad school, we referred to it as "Ockham's eraser" at times.

    BTW Doug, have you ever read Nietzsche's little autobiography? It's good.

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    Yes you did, thank you.

    Have you looked at the ordinances there? I have. Considering our common interest in firearms law, for instance, they aren't very informative or helpful. I also struggle with police procedure, zoning, traffic, et cetera.

    Here is the zoning ordinance; http://map.co.door.wi.us/planning/zoning_ordinance.htm for instance - evidence that I am familiar with the Door Co. web site.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    BTW Doug, have you ever read Nietzsche's little autobiography? It's good.
    Probably. Have you studied Glasstone's Source Book on Atomic Energy or read Ferdinand Toennie's Community and Civil Society?

    About the OP, I think you answered with a quick search but without reading or understanding.

    And to go on ... as I am damned as an elite often here on OCDO. I am a high school graduate retired 1995 at 47 y.o. as a GS-12 nuclear engineering technician(position) Shift Test Engineer (title) after 26 years federal civil service during which I attended technical schools and liberal arts colleges nearly continuously. And here's anonymous someone suggesting a postgraduate degree in philosophy! Here's my current job description (it used to say 'equivalent to a postgraduate engineer)
    http://www.navsea.navy.mil/shipyards...uclearTED.aspx
    Last edited by Doug Huffman; 08-13-2010 at 03:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
    Probably. Have you studied Glasstone's Source Book on Atomic Energy or read Ferdinand Toennie's Community and Civil Society?

    About the OP, I think you answered with a quick search but without reading or understanding.
    Ha! I believe I understood it very well. Let's go to the video tape! He asked if it could go to a jury. You answered (incorrectly) "probably not" and I answered (correctly) that it could as part of the appeal process.

    The only thing I needed to check was which chapter of the statutes covered it. Back when Brad Krause was in municipal court we-- or at least some of us-- brushed up on municipal court procedures.

    No, I haven't read those books. But if you think I might benefit from them I can add them to my reading list. I'm not sure how much time I want to invest reading about atomic energy or reactors, or what relevance it has to anything that interests me, although I once saw the Three Mile Island site emerge from the fog as I was driving one rainy night and that was sort of cool, at least visually. But I figured if I had a nuclear reactor question pop up I'd just ask you.

    The other book might actually be somewhat interesting to me because over the past few decades I have had a ever-increasing appreciation for Hobbes' philosophical approach. And, I enjoy studying the genealogy of ideas. It could prove interesting to see where someone has taken Hobbesian thought. Thanks for the recommendation!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
    And to go on ... as I am damned as an elite often here on OCDO.
    Don't worry Doug, you're safe with me. I am the last person who would ever accuse you of being elite. And why anyone would ever do that is beyond me. I got your six on that.

    It is a pity, although not surprising, that OCDO topics rarely delve into the joyful and highly entertaining world of nuclear fission. You're ahead of your time man! If only we were armed with something nuclear instead of these damned archaic chemical energy-based weapons. If we at least shot depleted Uranium rounds you'd be right in your element! (unintended pun.) I suppose depleted Uranium rounds don't interest you much because they aren't "glowing" enough. But take comfort in the knowledge that Lead and Uranium aren't all that far apart on the periodic table.

    I guess I got the luck of the draw (puns should not come that easily) with OCDO because it does more frequently venture into areas related to my academic experience. But you try hard, and I give you credit for that. Really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    But take comfort in the knowledge that Lead and Uranium aren't all that far apart on the periodic table.
    .
    Oh boy, now you are in my neck of the woods.

    Lead is much easier to "melt down" than uranium, thereby making it more usable for us common folk to make bullets.

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    Oh come on Phred! I was trying to cheer Doug up by showing him that, while we are not exactly talking about nuclear materials, we aren't too far away. If you keep pointing out differences he'll be depressed! Help me out here!

    But since you mentioned it, why can't a physicist, such as yourself, come up with an effective way so we common people CAN have depleted Uranium rounds --without spending an arm and a leg and a few radioactively damaged chromosomes in the process?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    a few radioactively damaged chromosomes in the process?
    Not from DU and not from natural U.

    Believe nothing you read or hear without verifying it yourself unless it agrees with your preexisting world view.

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    Homemade nuclear reactors in the basement aren't dangerous? My preexisting world view says they are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    Homemade nuclear reactors in the basement aren't dangerous? My preexisting world view says they are.
    Nuclear reactors, homemade or otherwise, have little to nothing to do with natural Uranium or Depleted Uranium. The next phrase after 'Believe nothing...', that I didn't use out of some small respect then, is "The latter clause is to excuse the invincibly ignorant." Don't try to learn - archly - science from the mass media. Would you suggest Spectaculus learn philosophy from American Idol?

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    See that's why I said I would ask you the nuclear questions! Now what the hell am I going to do with all these expensive black market centrifuges and and other crap I've got laying around? Come on over and help me whip up a batch! Of something! Flubber maybe?

    American Idol? Ummmm, could be some philosophical lessons there. Political philosophy, e.g., democracy, a bit on aesthetics here and there. But it is meager, very meager indeed. Most of it's profundity left with Paula Abdul, don't you think?

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Let 's pause for a moment, I need to get more popcorn and soda.

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    I got the beer! LOL

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    Shotgun and Doug. You guys break me up and here I sit, a lowly retired computer design engineer that helped design the computers that are installed on all surface navy ships, titan rocket guidance sytem, Trident Nuclear Submarines, minuteman Missle, Stealth bomber, F-18 fighter, Harpoon missle and some others. My mother said I would never amount to anything. She always introduced me as "meet my son, the failure". Whoa is me. Now all I can do is sit and read posts on a gun rights forum and try to deduce what they have to do with open carry. I think I vaguely remember that there is a feature on this forum named Private Mesages.
    Last edited by Captain Nemo; 08-14-2010 at 09:43 AM.

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    good reading

    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun View Post
    Ha! I believe I understood it very well. Let's go to the video tape! He asked if it could go to a jury. You answered (incorrectly) "probably not" and I answered (correctly) that it could as part of the appeal process.

    The only thing I needed to check was which chapter of the statutes covered it. Back when Brad Krause was in municipal court we-- or at least some of us-- brushed up on municipal court procedures.

    No, I haven't read those books. But if you think I might benefit from them I can add them to my reading list. I'm not sure how much time I want to invest reading about atomic energy or reactors, or what relevance it has to anything that interests me, although I once saw the Three Mile Island site emerge from the fog as I was driving one rainy night and that was sort of cool, at least visually. But I figured if I had a nuclear reactor question pop up I'd just ask you.

    The other book might actually be somewhat interesting to me because over the past few decades I have had a ever-increasing appreciation for Hobbes' philosophical approach. And, I enjoy studying the genealogy of ideas. It could prove interesting to see where someone has taken Hobbesian thought. Thanks for the recommendation!

    Sooo I take it, it is a safe bet to say that You an Master Doug have both read Green Egg's an Ham????

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    Geat Debat

    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Let 's pause for a moment, I need to get more popcorn and soda.
    Hey BROKENSPOKET, is their going to be a Commcial soon? I've got to use the Head..

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