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Thread: Royal Oak Further Attempts to Usurp Second Amendment Rights

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Exclamation Royal Oak Further Attempts to Usurp Second Amendment Rights

    All -

    I have found that the City Of Royal Oak is attempting to ban Firearms from Public Buildings by asking for the Michigan Legislature to amend MCL 123.1102 to give local units of government the discretion to enact and
    enforce ordinances that make local public buildings gun-free zones.

    Please see the following Agenda Item for the August 16th City Commission Meeting:

    http://www.ci.royal-oak.mi.us/portal...10/0816-19.pdf

    This resolution relies upon perceived non-attendance of the public at the City Commission Meetings and First Amendment infringements in accordance with the Michigan Open Meetings Act. This is interesting as I believe many who spoke at the City Commission Meetings said they were concerned about guns but STILL WERE PRESENT AND SPOKE. The factual information appears to contradict the claims of the City Attorney.

    Open Meetings Act Information (starting on page 26): http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...tgsFreedom.pdf

    Please review this information and take the appropriate action.

  2. #2
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    All -

    I have found that the City Of Royal Oak is attempting to ban Firearms from Public Buildings by asking for the Michigan Legislature to amend MCL 123.1102 to give local units of government the discretion to enact and
    enforce ordinances that make local public buildings gun-free zones.

    Please see the following Agenda Item for the August 16th City Commission Meeting:

    http://www.ci.royal-oak.mi.us/portal...10/0816-19.pdf

    This resolution relies upon perceived non-attendance of the public at the City Commission Meetings and First Amendment infringements in accordance with the Michigan Open Meetings Act. This is interesting as I believe many who spoke at the City Commission Meetings said they were concerned about guns but STILL WERE PRESENT AND SPOKE. The factual information appears to contradict the claims of the City Attorney.

    Open Meetings Act Information (starting on page 26): http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...tgsFreedom.pdf

    Please review this information and take the appropriate action.
    They can ask, but I doubt it will get anywhere. There have been zero problems, let alone crimes with people that carry into local public buildings, to restrict our 2A rights, especially on the heels of the McDonald decision.

    But if the state congress does try it we will be all over it.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  3. #3
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    They are not the first and likely won't be the last.

    South Haven asked for the same thing last year and it went no where.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  4. #4
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Royal Oak Email Contacts

    Please let the City Of Royal Oak know what you think about this issue. I believe that they need to appease certain people about this and may hope to spark an inappropriate reaction from the law-abiding and responsible firearm carriers I know you are. I ask you to be professional, well-reasoned, and not devolve into name calling or any unlawful behavior/actions.

    The Honorable Mayor, Jim Ellison: cmellison@ci.royal-oak.mi.us
    Donald E. Johnson, City Manager: donj@ci.royal-oak.mi.us
    David Gillam, City Attorney: daveg@ci.royal-oak.mi.us
    Michael Andrzejak, City Commissioner: ccandrzejak@ci.royal-oak.mi.us
    Patricia Capello, City Commissioner: cccapello@ci.royal-oak.mi.us
    Terry Drinkwine, City Commissioner: ccdrinkwine@ci.royal-oak.mi.us
    David J. Poulton, City Commissioner: ccpoulton@ci.royal-oak.mi.us
    Jim Rasor, City Commissioner: ccrasor@ci.royal-oak.mi.us
    Charles Semchena, City Commissioner: ccsemchena@ci.royal-oak.mi.us

  5. #5
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    I just would like to mention that the Michigan Municipal League (MML) has been trying this for some time now. I would imagine (and hope) that Royal Oak's letter will fall on the same deaf ears as the MML's attempts to change the law.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    They will not be successful with this. Not in any foreseeable future. Especially with governorship changing to GOP for sure. Legislature would also likely to shift to the right this November, possibly with GOP gaining control over House (definitely will not loose Senate which it controls now). I do not want to start political debate here. I know some Dems are pro-gun in Michigan legislature. But, GOP control historically better for gun rights.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    I welcome all who read this thread/posts to come to the Royal Oak City Commission Meeting on Monday August 16th, 2010 at 7:30 PM. The meeting is held at 211 S Williams St, on the 3rd floor, room 315.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I just would like to mention that the Michigan Municipal League (MML) has been trying this for some time now. I would imagine (and hope) that Royal Oak's letter will fall on the same deaf ears as the MML's attempts to change the law.
    Can you provide some informational links on this? I would like that data for the meeting on Monday.

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    Don't get overconfident. The ABE issue has gone well for us, as did McDonald, however, wherever there is honey, there are bees. This could lead to an increase in PFZs, not a decrease which would make more sense. We need to guard our victories with vigilance, in order to prevent the further loss of our rights. There are a lot of emotionally charged antis who will take their fears to the legislature and beg for more.

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    NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that the Royal Oak City
    Commission hereby encourages our elected representatives to amend
    State law to give local units of government the discretion to enact and
    enforce ordinances
    that make local public buildings gun-free zones.
    They're not asking to amend either 750.234d or 28.425o regarding PFZ. Instead, they're asking to transfer the ability to legislate on firearms carry from the State to City. Imo, this is DOA as the State will not give up it's authority in this area as that's the whole point of preemption in the first place.

  11. #11
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Don't get overconfident. The ABE issue has gone well for us, as did McDonald, however, wherever there is honey, there are bees. This could lead to an increase in PFZs, not a decrease which would make more sense. We need to guard our victories with vigilance, in order to prevent the further loss of our rights. There are a lot of emotionally charged antis who will take their fears to the legislature and beg for more.
    Stainless - due to the McDonald Ruling, any state or local laws/ordinances have to show overwhelming evidence that restricting a fundamental CIVIL RIGHT is in the Public's best interest. I believe it would be pretty hard to justify restricting 2A because of 1A since the actual bearing of arms is a Freedom Of Expression protected under 1A.

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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Un freakin believable!
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Any time is a good time to email and call law makers, but this is an even better time. Anyone who wants to help make sure this falls on deaf ears needs to be contacting their reps with concerns over how out of line royal oak is, as well as how bad of an idea their suggestions are, not to mention that the gun free zones need to be eliminated, not expanded.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    They are not the first and likely won't be the last.

    South Haven asked for the same thing last year and it went no where.
    This is political posturing by the RO board. They have to make an attempt so they can tell their anti-gun constituents they tried, but the state said no. Of course all the pro-gun constituents need to remember this and vote accordingly.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    RO

    Im wondering if Royal Oak and The City of Pontiac arent working together on this.

  16. #16
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sasha601 View Post
    They will not be successful with this. Not in any foreseeable future. Especially with governorship changing to GOP for sure. Legislature would also likely to shift to the right this November, possibly with GOP gaining control over House (definitely will not loose Senate which it controls now). I do not want to start political debate here. I know some Dems are pro-gun in Michigan legislature. But, GOP control historically better for gun rights.
    I think during a "Republican" administration, the chances of having anti-gun legislation succeed is greater as are the chances of it being removed, are lessened.

    A few cases in point:

    1.) John Engler...who famously vetoed shall-issue CPL legislation a number of times in Michigan. As I recall, his argument was always centered on the theme that he did not want people to be able to "run to their cars and get a gun" if they were in an argument.

    2) California requires pistols carried openly to be unloaded...guess who was the CA governor who pushed for that? None other than Ronald Reagan.

    3) Jim and Sarah Brady, staunch republicans. I know that Brady was shot and I do have sympathy, but I don't see many people who suffered at the hands of an automobile driver advocating the abolishment of cars.

    4) Speaking of the Brady Campaign, how about REPUBLICAN Paul Helmke. Paul Helmke has served as President of the Brady Campaign and the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence since mid-July 2006. Helmke was Indianapolis' REPUBLICAN mayor for a number of years and was the REPUBLICAN nominee for US Senate at one time.

    There are many, many, more...

    I think anything is possible at ANY time from ANY member of either of the two parties, Dems AND Repubs, because they believe that we here are just the "rabble"
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by army74 View Post
    Im wondering if Royal Oak and The City of Pontiac arent working together on this.
    It's easy to see how one could come to that question. They both seem to have leadership that is completely detached from the "realities of the common people living in today's society". IMHO

    Many of today's leaders seem to suffer from "Do as I say, not as I do syndrome". Questions? Google Kwame Kilpatrick

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0Hx36d9k-A

    where this type of leadership usually leads to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCm1t...eature=related
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 08-13-2010 at 04:47 PM. Reason: add link

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Thumbs up As usual the DOC hits it out of the park!

    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I think during a "Republican" administration, the chances of having anti-gun legislation succeed is greater as are the chances of it being removed, are lessened.

    A few cases in point:

    1.) John Engler...who famously vetoed shall-issue CPL legislation a number of times in Michigan. As I recall, his argument was always centered on the theme that he did not want people to be able to "run to their cars and get a gun" if they were in an argument.

    2) California requires pistols carried openly to be unloaded...guess who was the CA governor who pushed for that? None other than Ronald Reagan.

    3) Jim and Sarah Brady, staunch republicans. I know that Brady was shot and I do have sympathy, but I don't see many people who suffered at the hands of an automobile driver advocating the abolishment of cars.

    4) Speaking of the Brady Campaign, how about REPUBLICAN Paul Helmke. Paul Helmke has served as President of the Brady Campaign and the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence since mid-July 2006. Helmke was Indianapolis' REPUBLICAN mayor for a number of years and was the REPUBLICAN nominee for US Senate at one time.

    There are many, many, more...

    I think anything is possible at ANY time from ANY member of either of the two parties, Dems AND Repubs, because they believe that we here are just the "rabble"
    It is clear we must engage ALL POLITICIANS regardless of their "claimed" party ties.

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    i think we were very lucky with granholm, 2A wise. granholm and john cherry have been real good to us. she seems to know that people who carry legally are not who we should be worried about.

  20. #20
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    John Cherry is actually very pro gun... I was actually rather sad when he decided not to run... I think his party felt he wasn't liberal enough to win the Democrat Base.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  21. #21
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    John Cherry is actually very pro gun... I was actually rather sad when he decided not to run... I think his party felt he wasn't liberal enough to win the Democrat Base.
    He was at a range I was at a few years ago. He is not only pro-2a, he owns and uses firearms... and he's also a very good shot.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  22. #22
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by autosurgeon View Post
    John Cherry is actually very pro gun... I was actually rather sad when he decided not to run... I think his party felt he wasn't liberal enough to win the Democrat Base.
    I was hopin ghe would run too, I have a feeling if Bernero wins it will not be good for the 2A in MI. Not sure where Snyder stands.

  23. #23
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    He was at a range I was at a few years ago. He is not only pro-2a, he owns and uses firearms... and he's also a very good shot.
    Yep I remember when he promised that he would guide Jen on 2A matters..
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  24. #24
    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    I guess Royal Joke has an unlimited war chest of money to spend on legal battles, and the eventual payouts. Maybe I need to take a drive and stroll in Royal Joke to see if they will violate my rights.


    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    All -

    I have found that the City Of Royal Oak is attempting to ban Firearms from Public Buildings by asking for the Michigan Legislature to amend MCL 123.1102 to give local units of government the discretion to enact and
    enforce ordinances that make local public buildings gun-free zones.

    Please see the following Agenda Item for the August 16th City Commission Meeting:

    http://www.ci.royal-oak.mi.us/portal...10/0816-19.pdf

    This resolution relies upon perceived non-attendance of the public at the City Commission Meetings and First Amendment infringements in accordance with the Michigan Open Meetings Act. This is interesting as I believe many who spoke at the City Commission Meetings said they were concerned about guns but STILL WERE PRESENT AND SPOKE. The factual information appears to contradict the claims of the City Attorney.

    Open Meetings Act Information (starting on page 26): http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...tgsFreedom.pdf

    Please review this information and take the appropriate action.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    This quote goes well with Royal Oak's attempts to steal and dismantle our liberties, and rights. The shoe fits now wear it Royal Oak.

    " The Smell of the Weimar
    Republic is in the Air "

    -Gore Vidal







    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    All -

    I have found that the City Of Royal Oak is attempting to ban Firearms from Public Buildings by asking for the Michigan Legislature to amend MCL 123.1102 to give local units of government the discretion to enact and
    enforce ordinances that make local public buildings gun-free zones.

    Please see the following Agenda Item for the August 16th City Commission Meeting:

    http://www.ci.royal-oak.mi.us/portal...10/0816-19.pdf

    This resolution relies upon perceived non-attendance of the public at the City Commission Meetings and First Amendment infringements in accordance with the Michigan Open Meetings Act. This is interesting as I believe many who spoke at the City Commission Meetings said they were concerned about guns but STILL WERE PRESENT AND SPOKE. The factual information appears to contradict the claims of the City Attorney.

    Open Meetings Act Information (starting on page 26): http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...tgsFreedom.pdf

    Please review this information and take the appropriate action.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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