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Thread: Encounter with Jefferson County Sheriff AT GUNPOINT!

  1. #1
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    Exclamation Encounter with Jefferson County Sheriff AT GUNPOINT!

    gf
    Last edited by wthornton0206; 08-20-2010 at 04:06 PM.

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    Pretty intense, but I believe that you handled it well and, obviously, you were in the right to carry. I'm not sure if a lawsuit is in order, if you'd like to then that is, of course, your right and decision to do so. At the very least, I think that an open carry meet in Littleton is definitely in order.
    Last edited by ZackL; 08-13-2010 at 11:53 PM.

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    Wow... What laws can the regular people violate and get away with???

    Sounds like they committed a felony known as assault with a deadly weapon.

    Sounds like another LEO comitted a second felony known as "browsing" (unauthorized access to a government computer).

    So are you going to sue for a civil rights violation and try to get them fired and or prosecuted for feloniously assaulting you?

  4. #4
    Regular Member entartet17's Avatar
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    Sorry to hear that happened. You handled the situation well. Needless to say, they were completely in the wrong and you should definitely pursue the matter further.

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    Okay, upon revision (and enlightenment) I vote for the suit too.

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    Rather you take on the job and headache of taking this to a lawsuit, I would advise at least talking to a lawyer( in gun rights) about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iopencarry View Post
    Rather you take on the job and headache of taking this to a lawsuit, I would advise at least talking to a lawyer( in gun rights) about it.
    Definately! I would never consider doing something like that without someone who knows the system at my side. Maybe Dudley over at RMGO might have some ideas.... At this point however, its good to hear that you guys believe I handled it well. As I said in my OP my open carry has nothing to do with my job and Im still somewhat new to it. The advice and experience of those of you who have had contacts with LEOs is a tremendous boost to my confidence when I carry.

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    Although I wasn't there (obviously) and I haven't seen any mention of it yet, I would have to believe that the over-the-top behavior of the Littleton badge-wearing bozos caused immeasurably greater horror to the passengers of your bus than anything you were doing that day.

    Yet another example of an overly militant police force injecting more disturbance and upset into a situation than would ever have existed without their interference.

    I hope you find yourself in a position to follow through with any and all legal remedies at your disposal. These guys truly need to be brought up to speed. Littleton is hardly the only area of the US that has some sort of "history", and said history does not excuse their oppressive actions that day.

    I sincerely hope you'll fare well.
    While many claim to support the right to keep and bear arms, precious few support the practice.

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    Regular Member yotebuster223's Avatar
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    The response of the deputies encourages me even more to carry. It probably took them what ten minutes or more to mobilize and come up with a plan to get you off the bus. Now if this was a man with a GUN with bad intentions how many people would said MWAG have killed or severely injure in that amount of time. This is exactly why I carry because a MWAG isn't going to wait while the playing field is leveled i.e. "the cops get there."
    And one of the Oath taking DEFENDERS of the Constitution of the state of Colorado actually said to you "what gives you the right to carry a gun" He definitely isn't living up to his oath and needs to be taken off the streets and put back into the academy until he can truly DEFEND the Constitution of the state of Colorado.
    Last edited by yotebuster223; 08-14-2010 at 12:08 PM.

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    Withdrawing my post, when I thought the OP was deprived of his rights. It now appears he is deprived of any common sense.
    Last edited by Gunslinger; 08-21-2010 at 12:06 PM.

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    Did this encounter happen in the City of Littleton? Why did Jeffco Sheriff respond?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamite Rabbit View Post
    Did this encounter happen in the City of Littleton? Why did Jeffco Sheriff respond?
    The area where Southwest Plaza mall is located is considered unicorporated Jefferson County. I say Littleton in my posts and conversation because it gives one a better idea of the general location of things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wthornton0206 View Post
    The area where Southwest Plaza mall is located is considered unicorporated Jefferson County. I say Littleton in my posts and conversation because it gives one a better idea of the general location of things.
    Gotcha -- I wondered about that. I guess that blows my perception that Sheriff's Deputies are better to deal with than PDs.

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    It looks like something needs to be done, Any open carriers will get the same treatment.
    That to me would be a threat, Violation of Constitutional rights under color of law.
    Perjury of oath is a felony. Looks like the sheriffs department needs to replace a few people.
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    Deleted.
    Last edited by luv_jeeps; 08-20-2010 at 06:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by luv_jeeps View Post
    Wow!!! I have also now changed my thoughts somewhat about the JeffCO folks versus other local PD's.
    This is a bit more disconcerting because of the large areas of JeffCO that are very rural, although SW Plaza not so much. I would definately get all the info you can via FOIA and go from there.
    Absolutely!

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    What an experience

    Sounds like you handled it well. Should you decide to move ahead with a civil suit, which I believe is the only way to get enough attention to change laws and attitudes, may I suggest you visit with opencarrybilly. He has a suit working vs Loveland PD. It is difficult to find an attorney who will take on a case like this. Bill may be able to save you some steps. Plus he's a great guy to visit with.

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    Post Turns out i was technically arrested!!!

    Just found this infomation:

    Detentions vs. Arrests
    Detentions vs. Arrests: If not handled properly, a "detention" could become an "arrest" which, if not supported by "probable cause" to arrest, would be illegal. (Orozco v. Texas (1969) 394 U.S. 324 [22 L.Ed.2nd 311].)


    General Rule: The use of firearms, handcuffs, putting a person into a locked patrol car, transporting him without his consent, or simply a "show of force," may, under the circumstances, cause the court to later find that an attempted detention was in fact an arrest, and, if made without "probable cause," illegal. (United States v. Ramos-Zaragosa (9th Cir. 1975) 516 F.2nd 141, 144; New York v. Quarles (1984) 467 U.S. 649 [81 L.Ed.2nd 550], handcuffs; Orozco v. Texas, supra, force.)


    Indicators of an Arrest:

    The Use of Firearms
    The use of firearms. (People v. Taylor (1986) 178 Cal.App.3rd 217, 229; United States v. Ramos-Zaragosa, supra.)


    The Use of Handcuffs
    The use of handcuffs. (New York v. Quarles, supra; United States v. Purry (D.C. Cir. 1976) 545 F.2nd 217, 220.)

    While putting a juvenile in a security office at the border, and frisking her, were not enough to constitute an arrest, handcuffing her shortly thereafter when contraband was found in her car was an arrest. (United States v. Juvenile (RRA-A) (9th Cir. 2000) 229 F.3rd 737, 743.)


    A Locked Patrol Car
    Putting the subject into a locked patrol car. (People v. Natale (1978) 77 Cal.App.3rd 568, 572; United States v. Parr (9th Cir. 1988) 843 F.2nd 1228; United States v. Ricardo D. (9th Cir. 1990) 912 F.2nd 337, 340; "Detention in a patrol car exceeds permissible Terry (v. Ohio (1968) 392 U.S. 1 [20 L.Ed.2nd 889].) limits absent some reasonable justification."

    Show of Force
    During an overwhelming show of force. (Orozco v. Texas, supra; United States v. Ali (2nd Cir. 1996) 86 F.3rd 275, defendant was asked to step away from the boarding area at an airport, his travel documents were taken, and he was surrounded by seven officers with visible handguns; and Kaupp v. Texas (2003) 538 U.S. 626, 628-630 [155 L.Ed.2nd 814, 819-820], three officers, with three more in the next room, commanded the 17-year-old defendant to get out of bed at 3:00 a.m., and took him to the police station for questioning.)


    Physical Touching
    The physical touching of the person of the suspect. (Kaupp v. Texas, supra, at p. 630 [155 L.Ed.2nd at p. 820.)


    Transporting a Detainee
    Transporting a Detainee. (Dunaway v. New York (1979) 442 U.S. 200, 206-216 [60 L.Ed.2nd 824, 832-838]; Taylor v. Alabama (1982) 457 U.S. 687 [73 L.Ed.2nd 314].)

    As a general rule: Detention

    + nonconsensual transportation

    = arrest.

    See also People v. Harris (1975) 15 Cal.3rd 384, 390-392; transporting a subject from the site of a traffic stop back to the scene of the crime for a victim identification, absent one of the recognized exceptions, was an arrest.

    "(W)e have never ‘sustained against Fourth Amendment challenge the involuntary removal of a suspect from his home to a police station and his detention there for investigative purposes . . . absent probable cause or judicial authorization.' [Citation]" Kaupp v. Texas (2003) 538 U.S. 626, 630 [155 L.Ed.2nd 814, 820].)

    ALL OF THE ABOVE HAPPENED IN MY STOP! Looks like a lawsuit for false arrest would stick!

  19. #19
    Regular Member Phoenix David's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wthornton0206 View Post
    ...snip...Furthermore he said that we should never even think to carry as its a "stupid and un-necessary act in such a good area" as I could be shot should I make the wrong move. .
    Yeah nothing bad has ever happened in Littleton, CO so why would you need a gun?
    Freedom is a bit like sex, when your getting it you take it for granted, when you're not you want it bad, other people get mad at you for having it and others want to take it away from you so only they have it.

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    This is deplorable. The adjectives for that word I'd like to use are not fit for polite company. Until OC is more normalized, I understand LEO's need to contact MWAG calls. I don't support it, but I understand it. But 10 cruisers? 10??? TEN??? T-E-N??? THAT is how Jeffco spends their resources?? For gods' sakes! I agree with the poster who noted this probably scared the bejeebers out of people more than an OC!

    That aside, the guy has the cajones to say to basically another badge, "what gives you the right to carry"??? I wonder how he'd feel when he needs medical attention from one of your guys but they can't send you out because he'd have your means of defense taken away.

    Did this make the news?

    "10 Jeffco Sheriff vehicles armed with assault rifles stopped a bus because a mall security officer saw a MWAG board a bus. The man was detained and turned out to be a tactical paramedic with the same authority to carry a gun as a police officer."

    I'd *love* to see the citzen's reaction to their resources being spent this way!
    Last edited by mahkagari; 08-15-2010 at 12:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mahkagari View Post
    This is deplorable. The adjectives for that word I'd like to use are not fit for polite company. Until OC is more normalized, I understand LEO's need to contact MWAG calls. I don't support it, but I understand it. But 10 cruisers? 10??? TEN??? T-E-N??? THAT is how Jeffco spends their resources?? For gods' sakes! I agree with the poster who noted this probably scared the bejeebers out of people more than an OC!

    That aside, the guy has the cajones to say to basically another badge, "what gives you the right to carry"??? I wonder how he'd feel when he needs medical attention from one of your guys but they can't send you out because he'd have your means of defense taken away.

    Did this make the news?

    "10 Jeffco Sheriff vehicles armed with assault rifles stopped a bus because a mall security officer saw a MWAG board a bus. The man was detained and turned out to be a tactical paramedic with the same authority to carry a gun as a police officer."

    I'd *love* to see the citzen's reaction to their resources being spent this way!
    No, it did not make the news. You make some very good points. Later today I am talking with Southwest Plaza Mall security about the incident and will be providing them a copy of my departmental ID along with some education about open carry. It may do nothing to resolve further issues, but at least they can't say they are ignorant of either my status or open carry laws should a similiar incident happen again with either myself or someone else.

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    Wow! What an encounter. I hope you take the time to document each and every bit of this and pursue it all the way. Let us know if we can be of any help. Perhaps an OC demonstration around the mall?

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    I would stop posting about the event until you've spoken with an attorney.

    .02

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    Quote Originally Posted by centsi View Post
    Wow! What an encounter. I hope you take the time to document each and every bit of this and pursue it all the way. Let us know if we can be of any help. Perhaps an OC demonstration around the mall?
    Definately! I would be up for that. Think anyone else would be interested?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zach View Post
    I would stop posting about the event until you've spoken with an attorney.

    .02
    I agree.

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