Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 36

Thread: EPA considering petition for nationwide ban on lead-based sporting ammunition

  1. #1
    Regular Member shad0wfax's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Spokane, Washington, USA
    Posts
    1,067

    EPA considering petition for nationwide ban on lead-based sporting ammunition

    There are two threads about this on the Washington state forum portion of these boards but I don't see it here in the nationwide portion of our forums.

    In summary, a number of environmental groups have banded together and filed a petition for the EPA to have a comprehensive nationwide ban on lead-based sporting ammunition and fishing tackle. They're using junk since and wild hyperbole to back their claims up, but the EPA has 90 days to consider the petition. This is not legislation, it is administrative law.

    Pursuant to the Toxic Substances Control Act (“TSCA”, 15 U.S.C. § 2601 et seq.), Petitioners Center for Biological Diversity, American Bird Conservancy, Association of Avian Veterinarians, Project Gutpile and Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility hereby petition the Environmental Protection Agency (“EPA”) to revise rules governing toxic substances to ban the manufacture, processing and distribution in commerce of lead shot, bullets, and fishing sinkers. Petitioners request that the EPA consider this rulemaking pursuant to section 6(a) of TSCA.

    TSCA requires that within 90 days after filing of a petition, the EPA shall either grant or deny the petition (15 U.S.C. § 2620(b)(3)). If the Administrator grants the petition, the Administrator shall promptly commence an appropriate proceeding. If the Administrator denies the petition, the Administrator shall publish in the Federal Register the Administrator’s reasons for such denial (15 U.S.C. § 2620(b)(3)).

    Here is a link to the final Petition filed to the EPA: http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/c...ion_8-3-10.pdf

    Dave Workman from these forums posted a large write-up of this: http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...es-say-critics

    Here is a list of our enemies:

    Center for Biological Diversity
    351 California Street, Suite 600
    San Francisco, CA 94104
    Contact: Jeff Miller
    E-mail: jmiller@biologicaldiversity.org

    American Bird Conservancy
    1731 Connecticut Ave., NW
    Washington, DC 20009
    Contact: Michael Fry, Director of Conservation Advocacy
    E-mail: mfry@abcbirds.org

    Association of Avian Veterinarians
    P.O. Box 811720
    Boca Raton, FL 33841
    Contact: Adina Rae Freedman, Executive Director
    E-mail: aavcentraloffice@gmail.com

    Project Gutpile
    Contact: Anthony Prieto
    E-mail: projectgutpile@gmail.com

    (LOL WTF? Are you kidding me? "Project Gutpile!?" The EPA should deny the petition based on that name alone. There's no contact here other than an e-mail address and if you go to his blog at http://projectgutpile.blogspot.com/ he claims to be a Hunter. (Go figure he's from California.) Yes, I chose green deliberately to poke fun at this ass-hat.)

    Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility
    P.O. Box 4057
    Georgetown, CA 95634
    Contact: Karen Schambach, California Field Director
    E-mail: capeer@peer.org

  2. #2
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Washington Island, across Death's Door, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    9,193
    Divide and conquer. Either we all hang together or surely we will hang separately. Pastor Niemoller probably said it best with "First they came for..." the cop killer ammo, and I was silent, for I am not a cop killer. Then they came for the hunters ammo, and I was silent, for I am not a hunter. Then they came for personal protection ammo and there was no one to speak for me, all were jailed, silenced and dead.

  3. #3
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Washington Island, across Death's Door, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    9,193
    Really? Try a high speed injection and then tell us about its non-toxicity. Start with ~1200 fps.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    1,098
    Quote Originally Posted by VFORVENDETTA View Post
    I think they make all copper hollow points.
    What about using steel with a copper jacket? Thats non toxic.
    Respectfully, you've missed the point. First let them prove that lead ammo and fishing tackle is an environmental danger. Conceding prior to evidence makes for really bad precedent, and very stupid laws.

  5. #5
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Washington Island, across Death's Door, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    9,193
    Quote Originally Posted by PavePusher View Post
    Respectfully, you've missed the point. First let them prove that lead ammo and fishing tackle is an environmental danger. Conceding prior to evidence makes for really bad precedent, and very stupid laws.
    Very well said! Oh, if everyone would take your caution to heart the world would be richer. No ignorance wasted on DU or "cellphone radiation" or genetic manipulation of crops or alternative pathies. Thank you.

    Unfortunately they may assert that the danger is proven by the least of the many standards of proof.

  6. #6
    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Mattaponi, Virginia, United States
    Posts
    1,664
    Quote Originally Posted by PavePusher View Post
    Respectfully, you've missed the point. First let them prove that lead ammo and fishing tackle is an environmental danger. Conceding prior to evidence makes for really bad precedent, and very stupid laws.
    +1
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
    G19 Gen 4; Bersa Thunder 380; Sig Sauer P238; Kel-Tec su-16c

  7. #7
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Grennsboro NC
    Posts
    5,358
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
    Very well said! Oh, if everyone would take your caution to heart the world would be richer. No ignorance wasted on DU or "cellphone radiation" or genetic manipulation of crops or alternative pathies. Thank you.

    Unfortunately they may assert that the danger is proven by the least of the many standards of proof.

    Doug, you are either a poster child for willful ignorance, or you're one of Cass Sunstein's "plants". Your comments are often so off-target that I don't know why I even bother, except that when you make claims like this, it's just SOOOO easy to disprove...

    Yeah, you're right. DU is as safe as mother's milk...

    http://madisoncourier.com/main.asp?S...rticleID=11941

    http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf14.html

    http://www.boston.com/news/education...g_us_soldiers/


    An GMO foods are as healthy as Granola...

    http://www.organicconsumers.org/arti...icle_11361.cfm

    http://www.biotech-info.net/lancet_risks.html

    http://www.seedsofdeception.com/Publ...bate/index.cfm


    All that said, I do tend to agree with you on the lead thing...

    Pure lead, or lead in commonly used alloys (printers type, shotgun pellets, wheel weights, fishing sinkers) tends to be VERY non-reactive and you can handle it all day long and never have any elevated lead in your body. I personally know old-school letterpress guys who have been setting type daily for DECADES and they actually have lower-than-average lead counts--and most of them have WAY lower lead counts than their grandchildren (which is sort of scary, when you think of it...) Lead Oxide (the kind used in paints) is the dangerous stuff--it absorbs through the skin and is EASILY absorbable through the mucus membranes, but unless you are a historical calligrapher, the chances of even ever seeing lead oxide these days are pretty slim...

    The lead from our bullets on ranges has to be trapped in berms, and the EPA and most states very strictly regulate this. Interestingly enough, the Trap & Skeet world (which is generally a LOT more "big ticket", and therefore more the purview of the idle rich) has almost NO regulation in most states on mitigating or controlling their shot collection on ranges. Different laws for different classes, as per usual...

    But out in the real world, hunters put far less lead back into the earth than has been taken out of it. There has never been an instance, ot my knowledge, of groundwater, wildlife, or plants being dangerously contaminated by hunters lead shot.

    Now, the crap they spew out of hoses on military bases to clean jets, or the chem/bio/radioactive waste produced by most major universities, and the military industrial complex, or the average "carbon footprint" of Al Gore's personal lifestyle--that's another thing altogether...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 08-17-2010 at 06:55 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  8. #8
    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Mattaponi, Virginia, United States
    Posts
    1,664
    http://www.environmentalhealthnews.o...ame-and-people

    Might wanna use steel shot and Barnes ammo.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
    G19 Gen 4; Bersa Thunder 380; Sig Sauer P238; Kel-Tec su-16c

  9. #9
    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Lehi, Utah, USA
    Posts
    2,716
    Yeah they regulate that lead into berms. They regulate it right back into my guns.

    I cast my own bullets and spend a lot of time reclaiming wheel weights and range lead.

    It's fun, and is recycling at it's finest.

    The fact is lead is the ideal bullet material.

    It's dense, allowing for heavier bullets with shorter lengths, it's very malleable allowing for proper expansion, and it's not very expensive.

    Have you looked at the prices of barnes bullets and other all copper rounds? Yeah, they're pricey.

    Also, lead styphnate is used in most primers. The lead free ones have a rather short useful life.

    How would you like to have to cycle your ammo stash every few years? Didn't think so.

    This is one of those things we must fight, or it will quickly be a rich man's game.

  10. #10
    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Mattaponi, Virginia, United States
    Posts
    1,664
    you didn't read the article I posted. It dealt with eating game. I was not recommending a Barnes bullet for plinking/target.
    Last edited by simmonsjoe; 08-18-2010 at 04:29 PM.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
    G19 Gen 4; Bersa Thunder 380; Sig Sauer P238; Kel-Tec su-16c

  11. #11
    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Lehi, Utah, USA
    Posts
    2,716
    I did not read the article. You are right. However, I wasn't responding to you with my post.

    BUT, since you mentioned it, I have now read the article you posted.

    From the article you posted;

    "Volunteers older than 65 years of age had the highest levels of lead in their blood averaging 1.77 micrograms/deciliter (ug/dl) – probably due to a lifetime of cumulative exposure."

    1.77 micrograms/deciliter? Insignificant.

    Again from the article;

    "Individuals who ate wild game meat had an average of 1.27 ug/dl blood lead levels as compared to 0.84 ug/dl for non-consumers. Blood lead levels ranged from 0.18 - 9.82 ug/dl, so none of the volunteers tested exceeded the concern level of 10 ug/dl of blood set by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention."

    Since I don't know how to bold anything on this forum, I'll just repost what I would have made bold.

    "none of the volunteers tested exceeded the concern level of 10 ug/dl of blood set by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention."

    From the Oregon Department of Human Services on lead poisoning in adults.

    http://www.oregon.gov/DHS/ph/lead/do...LMean.pdf?ga=t

    So all the article says is you MIGHT have an INSIGNIFICANTLY higher blood lead level if you consume wild game taken with lead bullets.

    Personally I will be hunting with my 45-70 this year. It will be throwing a 350 gr cast lead flat nosed slug at 1300 fps (maybe 1900 if I get the time to work up that load) and I am not one bit concerned about lead exposure.

    I have my levels tested occasionally, and despite my frequent handling and melting of lead, and all the lead styphnate from the primers I use, I have never had more than 6 micrograms/deciliter in my blood.

    It's really all about washing your hands once in a while and not eating lead.

    And lead is actually very poorly absorbed into your body from eating it. More commonly it is breathed.

    Now, I don't believe you were saying we should plink with barne's bullets.

    Edited to add: Children are a completely different matter, but again personal hygiene and refraining from chewing on bullets goes a long way.
    Last edited by thx997303; 08-18-2010 at 05:01 PM.

  12. #12
    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Mattaponi, Virginia, United States
    Posts
    1,664
    Speaking of inhalation, I would like to see a study that incorporates shooters who use indoor ranges often.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
    G19 Gen 4; Bersa Thunder 380; Sig Sauer P238; Kel-Tec su-16c

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    50
    If bullets and fishing weights get banned, vehicle wheel weights have to go also.
    I say we shut down all roads for a minimum of 30 days to ensure that any and all wheel weights are properly cleaned up.

  14. #14
    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Lehi, Utah, USA
    Posts
    2,716
    I would like to see that study as well joe.

  15. #15
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    6,787
    Quote Originally Posted by thx997303 View Post
    1.77 micrograms/deciliter? Insignificant.
    Correct. According to both the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention as well as the World Health Organization, only a blod lead level of 10 micrograms/deciliter is "cause for concern." The American Academy of Pediatrics define lead poisening as blood levels higher than 10 μg/dL, as well, but children are more affected than adults, as they're still developing.

    What's going on here is that the liberal left EPA is attempting to take a bite out of shooting and guns altogether by using the only tool in their toolbox, that of "environmental contamination." The problem is, countless studies have shown no significant "environmental contamination" from the use of lead in bullets. The only issue with bullets comes from lead inhalation vapors in indoor firing ranges, and that only if they're not properly vented and even then only by those who frequent them or work there.

    But that's a different issue, one which has already been addressed through legislation which requires proper ventilation for indoor ranges.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  16. #16
    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Lehi, Utah, USA
    Posts
    2,716
    To get further into it, if you work in an environment that contains lead it isn't a red flag until you reach 25 micrograms/deciliter.

    Really, I have never had a blood lead level over 6 micrograms/deciliter and I handle it almost daily.

  17. #17
    Regular Member dukenukum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Lansing, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    270
    My dad started casting bullets when he was 12 and died at 75 years of and when they did his autopsy his lead level was fine.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Ruger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Occupied Greensboro, North Carolina, United States
    Posts
    548

    Mike Vanderboegh on the EPA's proposed ban on lead core ammunition:

    Mike's comment left on the official EPA website:

    Regarding the proposed ban on lead core ammunition, I think I speak on behalf of three percent of American gun owners when I say that should it be made into law, we will be happy to return it to the federal government one round at a time.
    Carry on!

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    137
    Wasn't there a law passed by the U.S. Congress around 1976 that restricted the E.P.A from interfering with the commerce of guns and ammo? Oh well, back to the appelate courts.

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Onancock, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    22
    Shadow, thanks for posting all the links.

    I heard about this proposed ban just this morning, and had been searching for all the info you've put in one place. It's greatly appreciated!

    I just don't like the fact that most news places are spinning it as a sporting ammo ban. When really it's just a different way to ban the 2nd admendment. They won't take our guns so they take our ammo. How am I supposed to protect myself and my family? Should I throw my gun at them?

    It really seems like the beginning of the end.

    PS - If anyone comes across phone numbers those would be greatly appreciated as well.

    PPS - I also read that the 'public comment period' runs from 8-25 until 10/31. How do we officially comment to the EPA?
    I found it! http://www.nssfblog.com/epa-consider...ke-action-now/ Like 3rd paragraph from top you'll see links. The first is to the actual EPA docket, and the second is to comment on that docket.
    Last edited by Airilith; 08-26-2010 at 12:51 PM. Reason: Answering my own questions and sharing answers :)

  21. #21
    Regular Member Ruger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Occupied Greensboro, North Carolina, United States
    Posts
    548

    Well, there's always Corbon's DPX cartridge...

    ...for self-defense. It utilizes the Barnex-X bullet & is all-copper. They boast 100% weight retention & very good penetration.... AND cost about $2 to $2.50 per cartridge - YIKES!

    I will admit, I have 2 magazines of DPX in my mag pouch for my 1911 right now - 185gr +P

    I shot a full mag through my Kimber a couple weeks ago (8+1)... I almost cried when I realized that I just shot $18 out my barrel in about 5 seconds... But at least now I know that they feed properly!
    Carry on!

  22. #22
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fairborn, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    13,063
    Quote Originally Posted by c45man View Post
    Wasn't there a law passed by the U.S. Congress around 1976 that restricted the E.P.A from interfering with the commerce of guns and ammo? Oh well, back to the appelate courts.
    If anyone knows a citation for this law, please post it. Thanks.

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Onancock, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    22
    Summary of the Toxic Substances Control ActCore Principles for Chemical Management

    15 U.S.C. §2601 et seq. (1976)
    The Toxic Substances Control Act of 1976 provides EPA with authority to require reporting, record-keeping and testing requirements, and restrictions relating to chemical substances and/or mixtures. Certain substances are generally excluded from TSCA, including, among others, food, drugs, cosmetics and pesticides.

    TSCA addresses the production, importation, use, and disposal of specific chemicals including polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), asbestos, radon and lead-based paint.

    Various sections of TSCA provide authority to:

    Require, under Section 5, pre-manufacture notification for “new chemical substances” before manufacture
    Require, under Section 4, testing of chemicals by manufacturers, importers, and processors where risks or exposures of concern are found
    Issue Significant New Use Rules (SNURs), under Section 5, when it identifies a "significant new use" that could result in exposures to, or releases of, a substance of concern.
    Maintain the TSCA Inventory, under Section 8, which contains more than 83,000 chemicals. As new chemicals are commercially manufactured or imported, they are placed on the list.
    Require those importing or exporting chemicals, under Sections 12(b) and 13, to comply with certification reporting and/or other requirements.
    Require, under Section 8, reporting and recordkeeping by persons who manufacture, import, process, and/or distribute chemical substances in commerce.
    Require, under Section 8(e), that any person who manufactures (including imports), processes, or distributes in commerce a chemical substance or mixture and who obtains information which reasonably supports the conclusion that such substance or mixture presents a substantial risk of injury to health or the environment to immediately inform EPA, except where EPA has been adequately informed of such information.

    EPA screens all TSCA b§8(e) submissions as well as voluntary "For Your Information" (FYI) submissions. The latter are not required by law, but are submitted by industry and public interest groups for a variety of reasons.
    For the past decade EPA has focused efforts on protecting citizens from existing chemicals by making basic screening-level toxicity information on them publicly available. In 2008 EPA expanded those efforts with the Chemical Assessment and Management Program, or “ChAMP.”

    This was found at: http://www.epa.gov/lawsregs/laws/tsca.html

    And I think this is the full text: http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...TITLE=15USCC53

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Onancock, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    22
    Here's a link to check out: http://guntotinggirl.blogspot.com/

    I'm trying to get all the important information put in one place. I thought it would make it easier to find things, and to pass on.

    Let me know if you want anything added.

  25. #25
    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Mattaponi, Virginia, United States
    Posts
    1,664

    You've missed the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruger View Post
    ...for self-defense. It utilizes the Barnex-X bullet & is all-copper. They boast 100% weight retention & very good penetration.... AND cost about $2 to $2.50 per cartridge - YIKES!

    I will admit, I have 2 magazines of DPX in my mag pouch for my 1911 right now - 185gr +P

    I shot a full mag through my Kimber a couple weeks ago (8+1)... I almost cried when I realized that I just shot $18 out my barrel in about 5 seconds... But at least now I know that they feed properly!
    That is not the point.

    So shoot 50-100 rounds every week at IDPA and tell me, does that feel prohibitively expensive? It's called infringement.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
    G19 Gen 4; Bersa Thunder 380; Sig Sauer P238; Kel-Tec su-16c

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •